Constructive Criticism?

[KayceeCharles]

Apparently Ian Fleming thought such details important because he often specified the brands of items James Bond wore or consumed.

But I did say, and I quote myself... "Does this detail actually drive the story forward or add details to the character... Or is it just... fluff?"

I'd have to say that James Bond is an example of the rule... those brand details added to his CHARACTER, not necessarily the plot, but characters AND plot are both story. Bond is the quintessential British Gentleman Spy... Capable of dispatching enemies while enjoy his martini, shaken, not stirred. He *would* be using the best stuff.

In your specific example, you threw in brand names because you're trying to contrast his outfit from his Old Navy / Target / Goodwill days. It added to his character.

 

[Hypoxia]

But I did say, and I quote myself... "Does this detail actually drive the story forward or add details to the character... Or is it just... fluff?"

I'd have to say that James Bond is an example of the rule... those brand details added to his CHARACTER, not necessarily the plot, but characters AND plot are both story. Bond is the quintessential British Gentleman Spy... Capable of dispatching enemies while enjoy his martini, shaken, not stirred. He *would* be using the best stuff.

In your specific example, you threw in brand names because you're trying to contrast his outfit from his Old Navy / Target / Goodwill days. It added to his character.

Exactly. So then, what constitutes fluff? Some tech-heavy stories seem to me to go overboard on car parts, military gear, anything with lots of model numbers. Clothing descriptions can overwhelm, too. My kinswoman the successful F&SF author has long been in SCA (Society for Creative Anachronisms) and is a costume FREAK; she may write pages describing one person's garb, much as Ian Fleming might spend pages recounting what Bond ate by himself at a meal.

I'll admit to going fluffy with photo, radio and music gear, with Native American crafts and arts, and with botanical nomenclature. At least I'm usually brief there.

 

[KayceeCharles]

Exactly. So then, what constitutes fluff?

Corvette vs. Camaro vs. Viper, when just "something black, low, and fast" will do, perhaps? (Unless, of course, there will be a drag race, and the performance would make a difference)

Or brand of underwear, unless it plays into the story? (like "Calvin Klein" play into BTTF) Or for ladies, do we need to know if the lingerie came from Fredricks or Victoria's secret? (Unless, of course, FMC and MMC had gone to shop before!)

Or exactly brand and model of gun... A classic Colt M1911, Kimber "Custom 2" 1911, or the Masood Ayoob Signature M1911? (they are all .45 ACP M1911 variants) or just "pistol" will do? (Unless, of course, one of these was a classic "Series 70" handed down by a WW2 vet... to the FMC or MMC)

Does specifying a specific model actually add to the story OR character? If it doesn't, leave it out!

 

[ChloeTzang]

Corvette vs. Camaro vs. Viper, when just "something black, low, and fast" will do, perhaps? (Unless, of course, there will be a drag race, and the performance would make a difference)

Or brand of underwear, unless it plays into the story? (like "Calvin Klein" play into BTTF) Or for ladies, do we need to know if the lingerie came from Fredricks or Victoria's secret? (Unless, of course, FMC and MMC had gone to shop before!)

Or exactly brand and model of gun... A classic Colt M1911, Kimber "Custom 2" 1911, or the Masood Ayoob Signature M1911? (they are all .45 ACP M1911 variants) or just "pistol" will do? (Unless, of course, one of these was a classic "Series 70" handed down by a WW2 vet... to the FMC or MMC)

Does specifying a specific model actually add to the story OR character? If it doesn't, leave it out!

Yes, it really depends on your story and the characters you're writing about. One of mine is really into guns and it just wouldn't be her not to be specific about the exact make and model as well as the ammo she's using and how she carries it. And if you shoot someone, you need to know the difference that a different round makes on the wound. 5.56 vs 7.62/.308 for example.

For another, it's her car - she's an engineer and part of her personality is that she's in to these details on cars. All depends on what you're doing with your story.

 

[autoplot]

I'm with GoldenCojones on this. Have you been writing like that for a while and built a following that expects you to carry on? Are you writing stories where that's important and you've left it out?

No and no.

Which, to me, just goes to show there's no telling how readers will react. I mean, I'm very up front about the kind of stories I write, and I still get people demanding the opposite -- and I don't think they're trolling, they just want what they want.

To be fair, though, I do also get (less frequent) remarks thanking me for not dwelling overmuch on people's physical measurements.

"Write to please my personal preferences and quirks" is not constructive criticism.

I have to agree.

 

[GoldenCojones]

No and no.

...

To be fair, though, I do also get (less frequent) remarks thanking me for not dwelling overmuch on people's physical measurements.

I have to agree.

Hmm, I don't get those comments either. Maybe it's more the categories we post in. I post frequently in Group and LW, but I have one EC and now one ... Romance

Or maybe the general theme or raunchiness of my stories gets my readers too worked up to offer those kinds of comments.

 

[KayceeCharles]

Going back to the original topic:

Generic slams like "your story sucks" obviously goes to /dev/null


Any complaint about character motivation should be taken seriously.

Recently I read a story here about a boss finally fucking his assistant. The problem is his assistant, a really young pretty bubbly girl only TALKS sex with him for most of the story, but never tried to seduce him. Then suddenly one night, he showed up at her house in the rain, telling her (why?) his wife cheated, and suddenly she gave him a pity fuck. WTF?!?!?!

The girl wants nothing for first half of the story, then suddenly she fucks her boss out of pity. That's not believable.


Any complaint about plot should also be taken seriously.

You want to know if your plot makes sense, which often, boils back down to are the characters behaving realistically BASED ON their background, motivation, knowledge (that they know), and their circumstances? If they don't, fix it.

Any complaint about tense shifting, POV shifting, or such obviously needs to be addressed.


Any complaints about info dump, or "as you know..." can be fixed with better exposition and should be taken seriously as well. Show, not tell.

I rather like the glossary put together by critique circle which contains a lot of the complaints.

http://www.critiquecircle.com/glossary.asp