Compromise

[Ishmael]

For several years now I've heard that term thrown out by both of the major parties. The Republicans are 'do nothings' because they won't 'compromise' with the Democrats and the Democrats are 'obstructionists' because they won't compromise with the Republicans. Both sides have a point, from their point of view.

For well over 60 years now the Republicans and Democrats have 'compromised' with each other. Up until 2004 that was the order of the day. While many call that 'compromise' I refer to it as "let's make a deal." For the most part those 'deals' have been to the detriment of the people because what they were mostly making a deal about was the division of power. Power over the populace. And like most compromise deals they were contradictory in nature and were formulated to cater to the lowest common denominator of the intelligence of those sitting at the table.

And now, as in 1850, we've reached a point where there can be no real compromise. One party believes that we can spend our way out of debt and economic malaise and the other sees government as the root of all evil. Just where is the compromise to be made there?

In 1850 the issue was slavery. If you bother to study the period you will find a host of political compromises and court decisions that led to the Civil War. And while what we see today is in no way related to the moral issue that plagued that era of history, we can see that the political history (compromises) have led us to essentially the same fulcrum point.

People are now deciding as to whether their economic freedom, and that of their children, rests in the arms of government or their own initiative. And that is a sort of freedom vs slavery issue in and of itself.

'Compromise' led us to this point in history and it's just going to get uglier.

Ishmael

 

[Bert Notorius]

i wanted to fuck msN in the ass and she didn't want to be fucked in the ass. so we compromised and i jacked off the the shower.

politics in a nutshell.

 

[eyer]

The revelation came to me sitting aside a mentor's gravestone, looking straight ahead at hundreds of Union and Rebel headstones at Crown Hill Cemetery in Indianapolis on December 7, 2005...

...the exact impetus to me on the crisply cold but gorgeously sunny morning was: What - exactly - are you willing to die for?

Took me almost two and a half years to wrap-up my life as it had been up to then and to concretely choose where to make my last stand...

...and, so, for more than 4 years now I've been acclimating to conditions I believe many Americans will eventually find themselves in, in a land where very few posers will ever reach when the collapse comes, let alone posses the fortitude to survive in.

The Boy Scouts leave you with:

Be Prepared​

The very best of America instills in you:

Give Me Liberty
or
Give Me Death​

There is no gray in this life any longer...

...there is only red and white.

 

[oxphocker]

Compromise is a great thing because it's the only way we are ever going to get this to work. However, there is a very big difference between being do-nothings that have publically stated that their only goal is to get Obama out of office and 'obstructionists' that are putting their foot down to stop religiously motivated, ignorant, sexist, racist, and corporatist laws from taking root and hurting average Americans.

Your argument is terrible and you're a terrible person for believing that any of it is anywhere near true or comparable.

 

[Ishmael]

Compromise is a great thing because it's the only way we are ever going to get this to work. However, there is a very big difference between being do-nothings that have publically stated that their only goal is to get Obama out of office and 'obstructionists' that are putting their foot down to stop religiously motivated, ignorant, sexist, racist, and corporatist laws from taking root and hurting average Americans.

Your argument is terrible and you're a terrible person for believing that any of it is anywhere near true or comparable.

You're absolutely right dear.

Ishmael

 

[Lancecastor]

'Compromise' led us to this point in history and it's just going to get uglier.

Ishmael

Bill Clinton brushed up against your thought last night, I think....he mentioned the choice between a "winner takes all" way of thinking versus something more community-based.

The classic small "c" conservative believes that government has no business being involved in things people can and should look after themselves...unfettered competition lets the strong prosper and the weak are losers.

In time, if you build a culture of winning. all levels are raised up, including the lowest levels.

By contrast, classic liberal theory says we need to look out for each other...and help each other. No man gets left behind, even if you put your progress or potential for unfettered success at risk.

In Canada we move between those same two theories of social contract...conservative and liberal....with a dash of socialism added to the mix.

We don't "dig in" from an ideological perspective as deeply as Americans do....and maybe that's why we haven't grown as quickly, are not as successful or powerful as the USA, despite having more territory and more natural resources than the USA.

But that's an aside.

More to the point, I don't things are nearly as critical as you are making them out to be....sure, there are two different paths, but you guys flip between them every 4-8 years anyway.

Your system pretty much dictates it....like a 5 Year Central Committee Plan, Version A, then Version B.

There's nothing new going on here....it's not 1850 redux.

Hunter Thompson said the same things you're saying in 1972...I say there is nothing new under the sun.

Bottom line?....you guys aren't ready for a Mormon President. Game Over.

 

[Disgustipated]

i wanted to fuck msN in the ass and she didn't want to be fucked in the ass. so we compromised and i jacked off the the shower.

politics in a nutshell.

Jacked off the shower? Someone needs a nap.

 

[Balcor44]

.....

 

[Ishmael]

Bill Clinton brushed up against your thought last night, I think....he mentioned the choice between a "winner takes all" way of thinking versus something more community-based.

The classic small "c" conservative believes that government has no business being involved in things people can and should look after themselves...unfettered competition lets the strong prosper and the weak are losers.

In time, if you build a culture of winning. all levels are raised up, including the lowest levels.

By contrast, classic liberal theory says we need to look out for each other...and help each other. No man gets left behind, even if you put your progress or potential for unfettered success at risk.

In Canada we move between those same two theories of social contract...conservative and liberal....with a dash of socialism added to the mix.

We don't "dig in" from an ideological perspective as deeply as Americans do....and maybe that's why we haven't grown as quickly, are not as successful or powerful as the USA, despite having more territory and more natural resources than the USA.

But that's an aside.

More to the point, I don't things are nearly as critical as you are making them out to be....sure, there are two different paths, but you guys flip between them every 4-8 years anyway.

Your system pretty much dictates it....like a 5 Year Central Committee Plan, Version A, then Version B.

There's nothing new going on here....it's not 1850 redux.

Hunter Thompson said the same things you're saying in 1972...I say there is nothing new under the sun.

Bottom line?....you guys aren't ready for a Mormon President. Game Over.

I disagree, as we so often do Lance. It's the trajectory I'm looking at. The vacillations on the slope are to be expected, actually it would be abnormal not to see those.

And unlike your observation, central planning has broken down. We've been running without a congressional budget now for years. Although there are some that contend that continuing resolutions are 'budgets'.

No, this is building to a head and no matter which way it goes we are going to emerge a very different nation.

Ishmael

 

[Lancecastor]

this is building to a head and no matter which way it goes we are going to emerge a very different nation.

Ishmael

I agree.

I've often said that the real global power of the USA is its way of life...right now, your military superiority is absolutely massive, but it's also crippling you financially.

I'd scale that shit way back to balance the books and increase the power of your global PR campaign...like I've said many times, your culture is a drug to people all over the world and is a way cheaper payload to manufacture and deliver.

 

[oxphocker]

There's no real need for compromise. Congress should meet once a year for a few days to pass a budget then go home to their own jobs. Anything beyond that is unneeded, unless a national emergency happens. The reason we are in this mess s congress has this need to pass hundreds of laws each year.

That's great if you're running a lemonade stand...but a country of +350 million people and the world's largest economy is way too complicated for a group to sit down for an afternoon or two and hammer out. Stop being a .22 mind in a .357 world.

 

[Ishmael]

I agree.

I've often said that the real global power of the USA is its way of life...right now, your military superiority is absolutely massive, but it's also crippling you financially.

I'd scale that shit way back to balance the books and increase the power of your global PR campaign...like I've said many times, your culture is a drug to people all over the world and is a way cheaper payload to manufacture and deliver.

Funny thing happened on the way to the forum, we're getting paid by the UN for most of that shit. Not enough to balance the books, but almost.

I will agree that it has to be scaled back along with a decoupling from the UN.

The trap that we've fallen into there, again, is the notion that we can export democracy. It's an insane notion if, for no other fact, than we don't have a true democracy here, yet, thank God.

If people truly want freedom, it has to come from the bottom up, usually via revolution, not from the top down. No political leader, or party, is going to willingly surrender power.

Ishmael

 

[Balcor44]

.....

 

[Ishmael]

Again, nonsense. The Federal Govt has very limited powers and duties. It's the States' job to handle most of what the Feds do now. You're just stuck on cradle to grave all powerful govt taking care of you.

That is the mind set of the slave.

Ishmael

 

[oxphocker]

Again, nonsense. The Federal Govt has very limited powers and duties. It's the States' job to handle most of what the Feds do now. You're just stuck on cradle to grave all powerful govt taking care of you.

No I'm saying that this country is a lot more complex than you give it credit for and the federal government has a lot more responsibilities than you think it does..."states rights" not withstanding, things like healthcare, defense, and a host of other issues are not a single state issue they are national issues. Have you ever seen the budgets for some of these things? They are VOLUMES long and a single bill can take up a cart in order to pass along. That's not something that be done in a single day.

I know Texas likes to try your method to an extent, but they have some of the worst education, poverty, and problems in this country. Not exactly a good model to go by I think.

 

[Ishmael]

No I'm saying that this country is a lot more complex than you give it credit for and the federal government has a lot more responsibilities than you think it does..."states rights" not withstanding, things like healthcare, defense, and a host of other issues are not a single state issue they are national issues. Have you ever seen the budgets for some of these things? They are VOLUMES long and a single bill can take up a cart in order to pass along. That's not something that be done in a single day.

I know Texas likes to try your method to an extent, but they have some of the worst education, poverty, and problems in this country. Not exactly a good model to go by I think.

Name them.

Ishmael

 

[oxphocker]

The interstate commerce clause alone is a massive one.
National defense
Printing/Coining
Promoting the general welfare
Establishing justice (court system)
Ensuring domestic tranquility

The courts have borne this out dozens of times and will continue to do so on the role of the federal govt. As for other areas that the govt gets involved in like education...states don't HAVE to participate, but if they don't they lose out on the federal funding and considering in many states that's the only thing propping up many schools, I don't think they have room to complain. Kinda like republicans that complain about taxes, but are from states that get more in taxes back then they paid in...funny that.

 

[eyer]

Stop being a .22 mind in a .357 world.

...said the squirt gun.

 

[Ishmael]

The interstate commerce clause alone is a massive one.
National defense
Printing/Coining
Promoting the general welfare
Establishing justice (court system)
Ensuring domestic tranquility

The courts have borne this out dozens of times and will continue to do so on the role of the federal govt. As for other areas that the govt gets involved in like education...states don't HAVE to participate, but if they don't they lose out on the federal funding and considering in many states that's the only thing propping up many schools, I don't think they have room to complain. Kinda like republicans that complain about taxes, but are from states that get more in taxes back then they paid in...funny that.

Obviously not a student of the Constitution or the Federalist papers. Just another parasite.

Ishmael

 

[oxphocker]

...said the squirt gun.

so what would that say about you? Each time we keep sparring in other threads, I keep making better points and I do it without turning to lame insults in order to make that point. You're a coward and a small mind that can't come up with better. Go away.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Obviously not a student of the Constitution . . .

Hey, guess who is?

 

[Lancecastor]

The trap that we've fallen into there, again, is the notion that we can export democracy.

Ishmael

In the global economy, I think that's your Brand...it's your Unique Selling Proposition.

That little sticker that says Made In The USA is everything.

 

[oxphocker]

Obviously not a student of the Constitution or the Federalist papers. Just another parasite.

Ishmael

No argument you have...
Empty suit you are...

Come on, you got to have something better than a lame dismissal. You asked for examples and I gave you ones THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THE CONSTITUTION! Have you ever actually read the thing? I teach it every year, so I've got a pretty decent idea of what is in there and what isn't.

 

[Ishmael]

No argument you have...
Empty suit you are...

Come on, you got to have something better than a lame dismissal. You asked for examples and I gave you ones THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THE CONSTITUTION! Have you ever actually read the thing? I teach it every year, so I've got a pretty decent idea of what is in there and what isn't.

Really?

So what does Madison have to say about the commerce clause? And what does Jefferson have to say about the welfare clause?

You see, moron, I've gone through this, on this board, years ago. It's all here, if you care to look it up, but you're a moron and you won't. Such is the nature of morons. I even traced the history of the genesis of the constitution itself back to the founding philosophy. Even made sure my children, VaticanAssassin being one, read those thoughts.

So, moron, what is the root of your particular thoughts regarding the relationship of man to his/her government?

Ishmael

 

[oxphocker]

Short answer, that government is there to help people.

And unless you were in the room with the founders and signing the constitution yourself, I could give a fuck what you think you think about what the meaning is SUPPOSED to be. The COURTS have validated much of the federal government's positions on involvement and considering those are constitutional lawyers who deal with it daily and over a period of hundreds of years I'm going to take their stance much more seriously.

By the way Madison and Jefferson have been dead for hundreds of years and this is a country with very different situations than in their time. While it might be interesting to think of what they might have thought of the US today, they aren't here so trying to compare then to now is pretty narrow minded. Does that mean there isn't something we can learn from those perspectives of course not, but to try and take them as the end all be all argument in this situation is again very narrow minded.