Communication

[IrisAlthea]

I’ve been thinking about communication, as I do from time to time.
I think it started with this thread this time:
https://forum.literotica.com/threads/bdsm-vs-abuse-vs-consensual-nonconsent.1568831/

There is always a lot of talk about how important communication is in BDSM and there has been more emphasis on it when it comes to sex generally too.
At the same time there is the ever popular fantasy about the mind reading dominant/lover who just magically knows what you want and with perfect timing too.

The reason I get back to this theme from time to time, is that it is often presented as filling out check lists, listing limits, thinking up safe words, negotiating terms or even writing contracts.
I get that this process is part of the hotness for some and I fully agree that there are situations where that level of communication is essential.
What bugs me I guess, is that I feel that it is presented as if the only alternative to it would be no communication at all.

Sometimes though, I see other things, like the couple who had some tchotchke that moved from one place to another signaling a mood to misbehave without having to ask for it or emme8’s use of different nighties, depending on what type of play she wanted:
https://forum.literotica.com/thread...g-kinky-playtime.1459014/page-2#post-95309769

I’ve also seen people describe really well how you can test the waters, read people and how you sometimes can improvise very nicely with a partner you know and are comfortable with and it is something I know from experience too.

What do you think of when there is talk about communication? How outspoken do you need it to be? Is there a standard that should be followed? What is your experience?

 

[twister947]

My problem with communication is it seems like telling someone exactly what you want for Christmas. Looking back, the very best gifts I've received were from people who knew me so well, they identified things I didn't even know I would love.

 

[seela]

I’ve been thinking about communication, as I do from time to time.
I think it started with this thread this time:
https://forum.literotica.com/threads/bdsm-vs-abuse-vs-consensual-nonconsent.1568831/

There is always a lot of talk about how important communication is in BDSM and there has been more emphasis on it when it comes to sex generally too.
At the same time there is the ever popular fantasy about the mind reading dominant/lover who just magically knows what you want and with perfect timing too.

The reason I get back to this theme from time to time, is that it is often presented as filling out check lists, listing limits, thinking up safe words, negotiating terms or even writing contracts.
I get that this process is part of the hotness for some and I fully agree that there are situations where that level of communication is essential.
What bugs me I guess, is that I feel that it is presented as if the only alternative to it would be no communication at all.

Sometimes though, I see other things, like the couple who had some tchotchke that moved from one place to another signaling a mood to misbehave without having to ask for it or emme8’s use of different nighties, depending on what type of play she wanted:
https://forum.literotica.com/thread...g-kinky-playtime.1459014/page-2#post-95309769

I’ve also seen people describe really well how you can test the waters, read people and how you sometimes can improvise very nicely with a partner you know and are comfortable with and it is something I know from experience too.

What do you think of when there is talk about communication? How outspoken do you need it to be? Is there a standard that should be followed? What is your experience?

Thanks for starting this thread! It's an interesting topic.

I view communication as building a box and then putting all sorts of fun things in there for the fun and benefit of all parties in the relationship. I'm a word person. Words turn me on so I love to talk about wants, needs, expectations, hopes. Words also seem more tangible to me than just seeing someone's reaction, which is a little bit weird, so, I prefer my partner to be very outspoken about their desires, consent and such, especially if it's a new person I'm with. It can be so sexy in many ways to share my experiences and fantasies with a partner and hear about theirs. There's the bit about it just usually being a very hot conversation, but also when I share something that I feel might be a little risque with a new partner, taking the leap of faith is absolutely exhilarating. I'm super awkward talking about these things

I've never treated those conversations as a list of things that I expect my partner to deliver. I've also never used a check list.

Your examples about moving the tchotchke and wearing different nighties are interesting. I'd assume, at some point, the meaning for those nighties and the placement of the tchotchke would have to be made clear, too, requiring some verbal communication?

I've had success communicating in non-verbal ways with new(ish) partners as well, but that's always happened during sex. Little things, like guiding your partner's hands or putting your hands up above your head can give a little suggestion of preferences, or generally just reacting very enthusiastically to things can be a way of communicating where to go. A dominant person might try to give a little slap during intercourse to gauge how the partner feels about it and reacts to it etc. Lots of things can be communicated without using your words. With enough patience the little things can be built into big things, I suppose, but at least for me and considering where my main interests within BDSM lie, taking that hinting, nudging, trial and error route can be way too long and contain much too big a risk for things to go wrong.

As to if there should be a standard to follow. Nope. At the core, as long as people are comfortable and everything's consensual, it's good enough. Problems can arise if one person interprets something as hints and nudges when they weren't intended as such.

My problem with communication is it seems like telling someone exactly what you want for Christmas. Looking back, the very best gifts I've received were from people who knew me so well, they identified things I didn't even know I would love.

I've run into this idea often, and I can never quite wrap my head around it. How do they get to know you well enough that they can give you what you don't even know you would love if you never communicate what you know you do like? Even the rudimentary basics.

 

[twister947]

"I've run into this idea often, and I can never quite wrap my head around it. How do they get to know you well enough that they can give you what you don't even know you would love if you never communicate what you know you do like? Even the rudimentary basics."

Yeah, I recognize this.

 

[ultramarineblue]

My problem with communication is it seems like telling someone exactly what you want for Christmas. Looking back, the very best gifts I've received were from people who knew me so well, they identified things I didn't even know I would love.

I think maybe communication that organically involves and includes things non kink and kink where you’re not giving a list of things but more just getting to know one another is maybe a way of getting to that point?

 

[IrisAlthea]

Your examples about moving the tchotchke and wearing different nighties are interesting. I'd assume, at some point, the meaning for those nighties and the placement of the tchotchke would have to be made clear, too, requiring some verbal communication?

Yes, it would require communication ahead of time but turn into short hand communication from then on, I guess.
I think the first example came from a thread about how to handle BDSM in a house with kids but I wonder if it could help with feelings like what Twister talks about?

My problem with communication is it seems like telling someone exactly what you want for Christmas.

I can relate to being a word person and I do love the feeling of that leap you are talking about seela - revealing parts you normally keep hidden.

I can be very physical too though and I love the flow that can exist when you are playing off each others actions and reactions, testing the waters etc. It’s thrilling too, in it’s own way.

I hung out with someone who is into social dancing this summer and talked a bit about that with him and I think dancing is a possible analogy for this.
You can do a routine that you choreograph ahead of time and even rehearse. You could also do improvision or social dancing where you use cues and connection to create something in the moment.
There are figures and moves you are never going to be able to do, in the latter situation and a lot that you are just going to be able to do with a partner you know well. You can still have a lot of fun and a special kind of collaborative creativity improvising or social dancing.

I just sometimes feel that the less structured part of communication, that often takes place in the moment and for example helps us decide if it is time to back off a bit or charge, is much less talked about and sometimes even presented as inherently bad.

 

[twister947]

Still chewing on this bone...

 

[Somethingdifferent74]

*lurking

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Well, at the most basic level, safe-n-sane BDSM isn’t something you to somebody, it’s something you do with somebody. Given that, communication is absolutely essential. (It doesn’t, as noted, have to be verbal, of course.)

As to Christmas, think of seeing your partner admiring, say, a wristwatch in a display cabinet in late November. There’d be a big difference between putting that in their stocking and just buying them a watch in absence of a better choice.

IMHO, if you want to talk about it, go nuts. If you want to work on subtle indications, that’s fine too, but it would clearly be easier to make work for couples who’ve been together long enough to understand subtle signals.

There’s a lovely arc in Stjepan Sejic’s Shiniez webcomic in which a couple decide to try BDSM for the first time. They’re both poor students, so they spend a day searching pet stores, hardware stores, etc for stuff to use. That too is communication.

I doubt it can ever be entirely without discussion, mind. For instance, I’m a firm believer in safewords and you cannot do that without at least some conversation.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Still chewing on this bone...

It is a bit of a chewy question, I guess.

*lurking

It seems to be a bit of that going on.

There’s a lovely arc in Stjepan Sejic’s Shiniez webcomic in which a couple decide to try BDSM for the first time. They’re both poor students, so they spend a day searching pet stores, hardware stores, etc for stuff to use. That too is communication.

Yes, that can be a way of exploring hot or not without lists and spreadsheets.
How people react to stories, pictures, movie scenes…

I doubt it can ever be entirely without discussion, mind. For instance, I’m a firm believer in safewords and you cannot do that without at least some conversation.

Yes, safewords are good.
Personally, I think that the rather universally known but sadly not always respected safewords ”No!” And ”Stop!” are useful when not doing resistance play and they are there by default until otherwise agreed upon.

Generally I agree though - there are limits and rather restricting ones to what will work without straight forward talk.
I was not shooting for ”talk bad” but rather for ”are we forgetting/neglecting/refusing to talk about the other ways we communicate?”.

 

[Somethingdifferent74]

What do you think of when there is talk about communication? How outspoken do you need it to be? Is there a standard that should be followed? What is your experience?

I needed some time to put some thoughts together (and look up what a "tchotchke" was.

Personally I think the moving of the tchotchke or use of nightie or color codes is still a form of communication just non-verbal.

Communication is different for everyone and feel it's quite important to get your point across or to be clear and precise. For me i prefer outspoken but if shy or timid or even if unclear (happens a lot while texting) trying be clear, I ask questions to make sure everyone is on same page and all things are understood. With that being said I support questions if I am unclear on what I'm trying to say or convey.

Personally I'm not sure about a "standard". Everyone and every relationship is different so what works for me may or may not work for others. Sometimes I even have to adjust as what's worked for previous partners doesn't always work another.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

AR - the problem with ‘stop’ and ‘no’ is that feigned reluctance can sometimes be part of the game. If that is understood between the couple, something like ‘red!’ can give more, um, flexibility?

 

[IrisAlthea]

AR - the problem with ‘stop’ and ‘no’ is that feigned reluctance can sometimes be part of the game. If that is understood between the couple, something like ‘red!’ can give more, um, flexibility?

Yes:

No!” And ”Stop!” are useful when not doing resistance play

 

[Acktion]

Personally, I always find it fucking hilarious when someone bags on me for being overly loquacious and then turns right around and bags in seven or eight other places about how uncommunicative (or at least unclear) people are. And, yes, it has happened several times over the years. Not anyone in this thread thus far, I hasten to add. But, it has happened pretty regularly. **shrug** The takeaway I always have is they don't want to hear it (whatever "it" is) from me. Not least because my late wife once pointed out to... someone (drawing a blank on who or what the context was), that I could very happily go for days without uttering a word.

I completely understand that whole thing where we want the other person to just understand us with minimal effort on our part. I really do grok it. I had it with my late wife. Eh... mostly. Usually. Okay, sometimes.

She had this whole thing going on where wanting the things she wanted made her embarrassed. (I'm sure none of you filthy perverts have the slightest clue what I'm talking about.) And if I would just do them to her, and especially make her do them without making her talk about them and admit that she wanted them, it would be such an intense relief.

And, truthfully, sometimes I did know exactly what she needed and wanted, but my inner Sadist needed to be fed her sweet blushes and squirming.

In all seriousness, the greatest failures of communications have always been the assumption that they have taken place. (George Bernard Shaw.) We say something and believe that we have communicated because we've said the thing. But, the other side didn't hear and understand just what it was that we were trying to communicate. It's frustrating. Because damn it, we know what we are saying! They should understand what we are saying! But, they don't for some reason.

And, yes, even with this woman that we knew each other so well that I made her orgasm from across the room during a Christmas party for her work with a simple look, there were times when we would be out of sync and have to pause everything to reconfirm our bandwidth. To set all of our myriad baggage and assumptions aside and just fuckin' talk about it all like we were two strangers first meeting. No jargon. For fuck's sure no fuckin' acronyms. Clear and simple words that a kindergartner could understand if we were unwise enough to say them where one might overhear.

'Cause, ya know, shit changes. And after awhile, she kinda wanted me to just climb on, pump for a bit, dump some cum, and get some fuckin' sleep rather than pound her through half the Kama Sutra for six hours every fuckin' night and make her cum twenty or thirty times until she would faint.

Yes, really.

And how exactly could I have been expected to just know that if she never said one word about it when up to that point she'd been eloquent about how happy she was to finally find a lover who could not only keep up but she was seriously considering bringing someone to tag out with for the first time?

Hell, my sweet little spice of my twilight had to learn the hard way that when I say to safeword when you need a break from cumming, I really meant it. Granted, I can't do the seventy-two-hour training sessions like I used to put my late wife through anymore without needing a break my damn self. (Which she says she is just as happy about.) But, I am still hell on wheels for about forty-six or forty-seven (max) unless she uses it. And her every orgasm is just a sign for me to crank the intensity another notch.

Honestly... I've always been a little bit baffled about why people are so dead set against talking about what they want in their sex life with the people who are actually willing to have a sex life with them. "Oh, no, I couldn't possibly talk to the person I'm fucking about how I want to fuck, 'cause then they might not fuck me anymore."

But, whether it makes sense or not, that is how we are. Some of us, anyway. We'd rather accept a pittance that we could stand than risk it reaching for everything we need. We are embarrassed. We are afraid of rejection. We don't want to be "The Bad Guy," like there is a good guy and bad guy or something.

At the end of the day (or at least damn late in the fourth quarter), if ya have a need that isn't being met, but you've never said anything, then it is no one's damn fault but your own.

 

[twister947]

"I've run into this idea often, and I can never quite wrap my head around it. How do they get to know you well enough that they can give you what you don't even know you would love if you never communicate what you know you do like? Even the rudimentary basics."

Yeah, I recognize this.

This is a dead end street.

As a submissive male, I plan out intricately detailed vignettes, except in these fantasies, they are the Domme's ideas. If I communicate any of this, it will feel scripted, and will be like reading a book that I wrote. I will always know what happens next. And besides, any woman that thinks like this is a candidate for an institution.

See? Impossible. I know I'm not alone in this...I've read enough posts from other men like me to connect the dots.

 

[Lady2020]

The main issue I have with communication is do not fucking surprise me and then expect me to act like a mature, rational adult, then play the victim.

 

[MaraschinoCherry]

The main issue I have with communication is do not fucking surprise me and then expect me to act like a mature, rational adult, then play the victim.

Yes indeed, Lady. And do not tell me and tell me and tell me that everything can be fixed with communication, but then fucking railroad me when it matters most (again and again!) and expect me not to finally walk away.

 

[Wonderer67]

I wrote something really, really long but I guess all I meant to say is that communication is critical (bdsm and otherwise) and not always easy.

There has to be clear communication and a willingness to understand the other person and to articulate things the way the other person wants or needs to hear it. (And vice versa)

Sounds simple - but hard as fuck IRL. I sure as hell ain’t perfect, but nothing ventured nothing gained.

 

[seela]

This is a dead end street.

As a submissive male, I plan out intricately detailed vignettes, except in these fantasies, they are the Domme's ideas. If I communicate any of this, it will feel scripted, and will be like reading a book that I wrote. I will always know what happens next. And besides, any woman that thinks like this is a candidate for an institution.

See? Impossible. I know I'm not alone in this...I've read enough posts from other men like me to connect the dots.

Do you think you could communicate some building blocks of those detailed vignettes rather than them in detail and as a whole? Start with broad strokes, leave for your partner room to improvise. Ask what they would like to experience and if there’s something similar on your wish list, then let them know that. That way you’d know it wasn’t all just you planting a seed in their head to do something.

Or would it feel disappointing that you’ve communicated parts of your desires and it still might not lead to the detailed fantasy vignette you’ve built in your head? Like you’ve given at least a part of a roadmap and the destination is still not what you wish for?

I’ve definitely seen unwillingness to communicate from female subs and doms too. But might this be more of a male sub thing? Is the problem that your fantasies get so intricate that they’re impossible to fulfill without basically handing out a script?

I’m sorry if this comes across like I’m putting you in a spot, that’s not my intention. I’m genuinely curious about this theme. No need to reply if it makes you uncomfortable.

 

[IrisAlthea]

This is a dead end street.

As a submissive male, I plan out intricately detailed vignettes, except in these fantasies, they are the Domme's ideas. If I communicate any of this, it will feel scripted, and will be like reading a book that I wrote. I will always know what happens next. And besides, any woman that thinks like this is a candidate for an institution.

See? Impossible. I know I'm not alone in this...I've read enough posts from other men like me to connect the dots.

I think it depends on how you define dead end street. Perhaps it just turns into a bike lane?
I wrote this in another thread a while ago:

It’s the difference between fantasies and stories and reality with other people.
There are parters who ”get” you better than others, because they are a good fit and/or are good at putting their mirror neurons to use but if you have very specific wants, like ”feed me with your feet” I think it was, you are going to have to talk, send them stories, scripts, lists or something like that.
Because people are not mind readers. Anyone who ever tried to get someone to scratch that itch on the back and had them gloriously miss by millimeters on every try, knows that.

Also, the things we find super hot in fantasy may not be like that in reality. Either because it doesn’t feel like we imagined it or because ”not now!” or ”not you” or ”not like that, because you are those few millimeters off all the time!” .

Perhaps exchanging scripts and talking about scenarios together, not as in ”this is what I want thursday 8.30” but as in ”these are things I find hot”, could give the dominant working material for planning something. That could be the bike lane.

If what you want is a fantasy put to life in exact detail though, I think you would have to both provide the script and have a partner who is good at that non-verbal communication I was trying to get at.

 

[IrisAlthea]

I completely understand that whole thing where we want the other person to just understand us with minimal effort on our part. I really do grok it. I had it with my late wife. Eh... mostly. Usually. Okay, sometimes.

Hehe, yes that last line is spot on.

And, truthfully, sometimes I did know exactly what she needed and wanted, but my inner Sadist needed to be fed her sweet blushes and squirming.

It’s not the knowledge, but how you use it.

The main issue I have with communication is do not fucking surprise me and then expect me to act like a mature, rational adult, then play the victim.

I get what you mean about surprises. I don’t like being blindsided.
I still shoot for mature, rational adult though because in my experience, most partners are not acting with bad intentions.

everything can be fixed with communication

Yes, that is one of those things that people say sometimes. There is of course no guarantee that you’ll end up on the same page. Not communicating at all is of course not going to be a better alternative, but I still think it’s fair to describe it a bit more realistic than ”if you just tell them, you’ll get that pony for Christmas”.

 

[twister947]

What I didn't say, and obviously should have, is that age and health have taken me out of the game. I'm quite content with the status quo.

 

[MaraschinoCherry]

Yes, that is one of those things that people say sometimes. There is of course no guarantee that you’ll end up on the same page. Not communicating at all is of course not going to be a better alternative, but I still think it’s fair to describe it a bit more realistic than ”if you just tell them, you’ll get that pony for Christmas”.

This is true. My now ex was so big on saying everything can be fixed with talking, and whenever we’d fall out he’d say it came down fundamentally to a failure to communicate well and fully. So all week I’ve been feeling like if only I’d communicated better, things wouldn’t have ended.

But that is not the case. Communication can only bring the problems to light, right? Talking cannot actually fix everything.

 

[twister947]

Talking and communicating are not the same thing.

 

[IrisAlthea]

So all week I’ve been feeling like if only I’d communicated better, things wouldn’t have ended.

But that is not the case.

I think the ”if only…” is rather universal after a breakup. It’s the bargaining stage of grief.
I don’t know what happened in your relationship, but I know that in one of mine I used to think that if he’d only told me about his worries, I could have fixed it.
Mumble mumble years later, I can see what he saw already back then - however much we’d have communicated and I’d tried, I couldn’t have changed what he wanted changed.

This is perhaps more about the relationship part of communicating rather than BDSM though?