Columbus Day

[cloudy]

I tried to explain discovery......that is what I was trying to do in what I said.


I won't say I am sorry for European Ancestors nobody should. They did what they thought was right. I am sure you don't have to explain selling cigaretts and having casinos on reservations. I am sure that would be a source of pride among your ancestors.

Oh, what the hell ever! Way to buy into stereotypes.

 

[Jagged]

Yes it seems I have lowered myself to your level...Europeans made war like they did at home. No different.....like I said. Should have killed the first white men that came to your shores. Fought out how to make better weapons and be vigilant. And please don't try to say that Native Americans (a general term I frankly don't like) are nonviolent living in peace.

 

[minsue]

I tried to explain discovery......that is what I was trying to do in what I said.


I won't say I am sorry for European Ancestors nobody should. They did what they thought was right. I am sure you don't have to explain selling cigaretts and having casinos on reservations. I am sure that would be a source of pride among your ancestors.

Amicus?? Amicus, is that you??

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I tried to explain discovery......that is what I was trying to do in what I said.


I won't say I am sorry for European Ancestors nobody should. They did what they thought was right. I am sure you don't have to explain selling cigaretts and having casinos on reservations. I am sure that would be a source of pride among your ancestors.

Ya know, the real problem is you won't say you're sorry. It's arrogant and prideful and pretty much an indication of a lack of historic perspective.

I'm sorry for a lot of things our european ancestors did. I'm sorry as a person, because of the human tragedy. I'm sorry as a historian for the untold damage obliterating cultures caused. Anyone with an understanding of exactly what was perpatrated upon native peoples by us should be sorry that it happened.

it only takes a stubborn streak to refuse to say I'm sorry. Any child can do it. It takes a man or woman to say I am sorry.

Your callousness to the incredible carnage wreaked on Native peoples by europeans is hard to understand.

Most people in this forum consider me right of Atilla the Hun, but at least I'm not inhumanly insensitive.

Comparing the arrival of Columbus to finding a new chinese resturant was inexcusible in the shallowness of the analogy.

 

[R. Richard]

To me Columbus is like the many members of the space program. Wasn't the first but his mission was important none the less...I don't blame him for what happen to Native Americans. Actually I blame the first tribes to encounter the Spaniards. They should have slaughtered them took their weapons and ships and learned to build them and bought time.

An interesting idea. However, the Amerinds at the time of the Spanish invasion were a stone age people without the tools to build replicas of the Spanish ships and without the technology to duplicate the Spanish weapons. The Amerinds could probably have slaughtered the Spanish, but even this is not certain. The conquistadores were able to defeat the Amerinds in many, many confrontations. You must understand that the Amerinds were not one people, they were competing tribes and were often at war with one another.

In any case, the first permanent non-Amerind settlement in North America was NOT Viking or Spanish. The settlement was called "Shikora" [many. many spellings used]. It is still a legend among the Georgia/South Carlina Amerinds.

I would be willing to state that, aside from myself, not one Literotica member knows who settled Chikora or why. [That includes you, Cloudy. See if you can answer my questions.]

 

[cloudy]

An interesting idea. However, the Amerinds at the time of the Spanish invasion were a stone age people without the tools to build replicas of the Spanish ships and without the technology to duplicate the Spanish weapons. The Amerinds could probably have slaughtered the Spanish, but even this is not certain. The conquistadores were able to defeat the Amerinds in many, many confrontations. You must understand that the Amerinds were not one people, they were competing tribes and were often at war with one another.

In any case, the first permanent non-Amerind settlement in North America was NOT Viking or Spanish. The settlement was called "Shikora" [many. many spellings used]. It is still a legend among the Georgia/South Carlina Amerinds.

I would be willing to state that, aside from myself, not one Literotica member knows who settled Chikora or why. [That includes you, Cloudy. See if you can answer my questions.]

The legends just say it was the Owl Eyes that settled it, but you're right, I don't know who they actually were....just the old legends.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Yes it seems I have lowered myself to your level...Europeans made war like they did at home. No different.....like I said. Should have killed the first white men that came to your shores. Fought out how to make better weapons and be vigilant. And please don't try to say that Native Americans (a general term I frankly don't like) are nonviolent living in peace.

Actually, most of the fighting done was by native allies of the invaders. Cortez murdered Montezuma. Pizarro murdered Atahuaelpa. While europaean wars were common and brutal, killing of hostages wasn't generally done. The frequency and savagery with which the spaniards visited death upon native peoples, royalty and hostages showed an innate disreguard for them as human beings. Their battlefield tactics were the same. excessively brutal and bloody. Far more so than was usual in their wars between themselves.

They did not wage war as they did among themselves. They waged war as they would among a people they considered less than human.

 

[R. Richard]

Actually, most of the fighting done was by native allies of the invaders. Cortez murdered Montezuma. Pizarro murdered Atahuaelpa. While europaean wars were common and brutal, killing of hostages wasn't generally done. The frequency and savagery with which the spaniards visited death upon native peoples, royalty and hostages showed an innate disreguard for them as human beings. Their battlefield tactics were the same. excessively brutal and bloody. Far more so than was usual in their wars between themselves.

They did not wage war as they did among themselves. They waged war as they would among a people they considered less than human.

Right you are, Colly! The Indians were not Christian [specifically Catholic,] therefore they were less than human. to the conquistadores. [It might be pointed out that the conquistadores often carried with them Priests. The Priests did not care if Indians were killed, until the Indians had accepted Christianity.]

The Spanish took advantage of the splintered political character of the Amerind tribes and hired one tribe to fight against another tribe with the Spaniards adding their armored savagery to their Amerind allies.

The battlefield tactics of the Spanish had to be brutal. They were a small invading force and usually faced numerically superior enemies. They had to strike fear into their enemies in order to survive. [I do not condone what was done, I merely try to explain it.]

JMHO

 

[Jagged]

Your history is alittle off........Columbus did not come with conquistadors. He had less then 100 men I believe and three ships. Stoneage not exactly but finding someone who could teach them would have been wise......trade or buy technology. Bottomline they should have taken them on the first day.



Though it should be said that a handful of Europeans took so much territory. Just like in India......rather impressive. Africa took much longer and was a continous fight.

 

[R. Richard]

The legends just say it was the Owl Eyes that settled it, but you're right, I don't know who they actually were....just the old legends.

Cloudy, I am very interested in the phrase "Owl Eyes." Can you give me any more information as to what "Owl Eyes" might have meant? The eyes of an owl are very large and are the most prominent feature of the owl, differentiating the owl from other birds. The eyes of the first permanent [more or less] settlers would have been a feature noticed by the Amerinds. TIA!

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Right you are, Colly! The Indians were not Christian [specifically Catholic,] therefore they were less than human. to the conquistadores. [It might be pointed out that the conquistadores often carried with them Priests. The Priests did not care if Indians were killed, until the Indians had accepted Christianity.]

The Spanish took advantage of the splintered political character of the Amerind tribes and hired one tribe to fight against another tribe with the Spaniards adding their armored savagery to their Amerind allies.

The battlefield tactics of the Spanish had to be brutal. They were a small invading force and usually faced numerically superior enemies. They had to strike fear into their enemies in order to survive. [I do not condone what was done, I merely try to explain it.]

JMHO

In truth, they often had the numbers edge when you include their native auxillarys. Cortez wiped out a city after he was expeled from tenoshteclan(sp) just to resotre his troops faith. It was brutal and they spanish used terror, from cannon to trained attack dogs to horses. Any means neccessary.

It hsould also be noted that central American natives didn't understand battle to the death. their weapons were menat to incapacitate, so that victims could be captured and sacrificed.

Diffrent belife systems in the extreme.

 

[cloudy]

Jagged, I'm asking nicely....go take your hate somewhere else, please. It does you no favors to show yourself like this.

 

[cloudy]

Cloudy, I am very interested in the phrase "Owl Eyes." Can you give me any more information as to what "Owl Eyes" might have meant? The eyes of an owl are very large and are the most prominent feature of the owl, differentiating the owl from other birds. The eyes of the first permanent [more or less] settlers would have been a feature noticed by the Amerinds. TIA!

They were called Owl Eyes because they could see more easily in the dark than we could, for one, and had light-colored eyes.

 

[rcfstl]

They were called Owl Eyes because they could see more easily in the dark than we could, for one, and had light-colored eyes.

My question is this. Didnt the Aztecs cut the fucking hearts out of people? Their fellow Native Americans if I remember right. so Good Old Chistopher (he was also Italian not Spainish by the way) and his crews of evil, nasty, small pox ridden crew brought all bad things to this continent, and it was a big hug fest before the white man destroyed paradise?


Seem to remember lots of inter tribal warfare and lots of Native Americans killing each other off before the Evil Bringer of All Things Bad white man showed up.

And since the Native Americans gave Europe Syphllis I think they got some revenge.

 

[Jagged]

Ah.....always easy to call someone a racist. Well I am sure you hate whites. I could see your reasons, but when it comes down to it when you have wars one culture wins one loses. The victors carry on their culture. How many civilizations have gone by the wasted side because one side fought harder and won the day. That is a simple fact. Make an enemy a monster you can have a war.......you have a war you get what you want.


Since we are looking back on history no group can take the moral high ground. All have been evil bastards at one point or another......keep slaves, repress people, kill, murder and conquest. That is not confined just to those who have white skin.

 

[cantdog]

Actually, most of the fighting done was by native allies of the invaders. Cortez murdered Montezuma. Pizarro murdered Atahuaelpa. While europaean wars were common and brutal, killing of hostages wasn't generally done. The frequency and savagery with which the spaniards visited death upon native peoples, royalty and hostages showed an innate disreguard for them as human beings. Their battlefield tactics were the same. excessively brutal and bloody. Far more so than was usual in their wars between themselves.

They did not wage war as they did among themselves. They waged war as they would among a people they considered less than human.

The Europeans slew hostages, entirely dishonorably, during their Crusades. The muslims were not human, either. They committed massacres. They offered to spare citizens if they were allowed in the city to rule it, then raped and slaughtered. They discussed it first, because it seemed wrong; but the consensus was, one owed honor only to Christians.

 

[cloudy]

My question is this. Didnt the Aztecs cut the fucking hearts out of people? Their fellow Native Americans if I remember right. so Good Old Chistopher (he was also Italian not Spainish by the way) and his crews of evil, nasty, small pox ridden crew brought all bad things to this continent, and it was a big hug fest before the white man destroyed paradise?


Seem to remember lots of inter tribal warfare and lots of Native Americans killing each other off before the Evil Bringer of All Things Bad white man showed up.

And since the Native Americans gave Europe Syphllis I think they got some revenge.

Wrong. We didn't give syphillis to the Europeans. You really need to study some history.

 

[cloudy]

Jagged: wrong again. I don't hate whites.....my father is white. See what assumptions do to you?

 

[R. Richard]

They were called Owl Eyes because they could see more easily in the dark than we could, for one, and had light-colored eyes.

Thank you, Cloudy! You have added to my knowledge of American history.

The first permanent settlers [more or less] on the North American continent were black Africans. The Spanish had black African slaves with Lucas Vazquez del Ayllon. When the Spaniards had to retreat to Cuba, they abandoned the Africans. The Africans then set up the village of Chikora. They lived in much the same fashion as the Amerinds and were accepted by the Amerinds. [They were, in all probability absorbed by the Amerinds. For one thing there would almost certainly have been more African men than women on an initial colonization voyage.]

Africans have very good low-light vision, much better than Europeans. [I fought in Africa and observed their prowess in the dark.] While the Africans do not have light colored eyes, the whites of the African's eye against the VERY DARK skin would be a prominent feature to be noticed by the Amerinds. [Put a very dark American Negro along side a VERY DARK African and you will see why I use capitals.] If you can get any more information to verify/refute my assertions, I would be most grateful.

Of course, Thorfiinn Karlsefni intended to make a permanent settlement, but his troubles with the "skraelings" terminated the settlement after some three years.

 

[Jagged]

And Jagged: wrong again. I don't hate whites.....my father is white. See what assumptions do to you?


So your a mutt like me......lol You don't hate whites.....so stop acting like it.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

The Europeans slew hostages, entirely dishonorably, during their Crusades. The muslims were not human, either. They committed massacres. They offered to spare citizens if they were allowed in the city to rule it, then raped and slaughtered. They discussed it first, because it seemed wrong; but the consensus was, one owed honor only to Christians.

I know Richard Slew hostages at Acre. However, as you pointed out, this was a war against people they considered subhuman.

My point was that they didn't employ the same tactics as frequently with other europpeans. Not saying they never did, only that the way they did so against the Native americans gives a lie to the statement they fought the same kind of wars in the new world.

 

[cloudy]

And Jagged: wrong again. I don't hate whites.....my father is white. See what assumptions do to you?


So your a mutt like me......lol You don't hate whites.....so stop acting like it.

I've never acted like it. You're projecting your hatred onto me. Don't even try it, everyone here knows better.

And, nope, not a mutt. The Choctaw are matrilineal, so I'm Choctaw.

 

[rcfstl]

Wrong. We didn't give syphillis to the Europeans. You really need to study some history.

We didnt, hmmmm you around when Columbus got here? and every source I have seen points to syphllis being a mutation of yaws that first made its appearance after the return of Columbus' crew to Spain.


Missed the point, Violence against a different people is not a purely European tradition, the Americas were filled with war and genocide long before the Europeans arrived.

 

[cloudy]

We didnt, hmmmm you around when Columbus got here? and every source I have seen points to syphllis being a mutation of yaws that first made its appearance after the return of Columbus' crew to Spain.


Missed the point, Violence against a different people is not a purely European tradition, the Americas were filled with war and genocide long before the Europeans arrived.

Syphillis was known in Europe long before the first white person set foot here.

Wars, yes...genocide, nope, wrong again.

 

[R. Richard]

The Europeans slew hostages, entirely dishonorably, during their Crusades. The muslims were not human, either. They committed massacres. They offered to spare citizens if they were allowed in the city to rule it, then raped and slaughtered. They discussed it first, because it seemed wrong; but the consensus was, one owed honor only to Christians.

If I may gently correct here. The Muslims were human. However, the Muslims had the temerity to seize control of Jerusalem and the Holy Land. The Muslims trespassed on the cradle of Christianity and had to be put to the sword for their blasphemous ways! Of course, the guiding principle was that European Christians had the only True Religion. Anyone trying to impose their wrongheaded religion on Christians had to be killed.

Once again, European religious people validated the slaughter of the "godless enemy." The very fact that they were human doomed the enemies of the Crusaders. If the enemy had been "just savages," they could have been profitably enslaved. [Some were, by the way, enslaved anyway. Even a Crusader has to look after the bottom line!]

JMHO