closed Thread

[Politruk]

So what? If the Israelis have some insane plan to attack Iran, leaking the attack plan averts a war the world cannot afford.

 

[butters]

I certainly hope the Americans (whoever happens to be in charge when the 30 day deadline expires) will be able to convince the Israelis to declare victory and convince Hamas and Hizbullah to stop shooting, through the application of "leverage" or whatever means are necessary.

But I think it unlikely.

we can hope but i don't see it happening

 

[Rightguide]

So what? If the Israelis have some insane plan to attack Iran, leaking the attack plan averts a war the world cannot afford.

You're a dumb SOB, aren't you? The leak means the enemy is in our government. It isn't going to protect Iran. It attacks American trust in the eyes of our allies. Iran will be hit and its leadership toppled only we won't know about it until "after" it happens.

​

 

[Politruk]

Iran will be hit and its leadership toppled

​

Not if they know the attack is coming, they won't. More importantly, the Israelis won't even mount the attack if they know the plan has been leaked.

 

[Rightguide]

Not if they know the attack is coming, they won't. More importantly, the Israelis won't even mount the attack if they know the plan has been leaked.

You are too naïve to comment on the subject. You need to put your emotions aside and view the issue dispassionately. The leak does not eliminate Israel's strategic problem of the regional snake that is funding all of the terror attacks against it. Two things have to happen. Iran needs to be hit very hard, enough to deter a response and it must leave Iran with the belief that a retaliatory strike against Israel will result in an even more catastrophic response. I think we'll see the IDF go after major military and national economic infrastructure and Iran's political leadership.

 

[lessOHmo]

 

[lessOHmo]

 

[Politruk]

Iran needs to be hit very hard

Absolutely NOT! No way that doesn't lead to a major war!

 

[lessOHmo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1848402561247940869

 

[Lazaran]

You are too naïve to comment on the subject. You need to put your emotions aside and view the issue dispassionately. The leak does not eliminate Israel's strategic problem of the regional snake that is funding all of the terror attacks against it. Two things have to happen. Iran needs to be hit very hard, enough to deter a response and it must leave Iran with the belief that a retaliatory strike against Israel will result in an even more catastrophic response. I think we'll see the IDF go after major military and national economic infrastructure and Iran's political leadership.

So today the "republicans" are the "war party"???



"Right"guide

 

[RobDownSouth]

Perhaps.

But the allies in WWII were perfectly content to drop lots of bombs on Germans and Italians and Japanese (not to mention Romanians, occupied French territory, etc.) in pursuing the objective of the defeat of their enemy. Is this in any way different?

Yes, it's very very different.
Allies in World War 2 focused on defeating the Axis military, and to do so they had to cripple the industrial heart of the Axis powers, as well as destroying their transportation infrastructure. As far as humanly possible, they tried to minimize civilian casualties.

The Israeli military action appears to be to the opposite: maximize civilian casualties. They have been documented shooting aid workers, medical staff, and especially foreign journalists. They routinely bomb mosques, hospitals and refugee camps, under the blanket excuse of "well, we thought Hamas was hiding there".

However, we mustn't forget that in this case the people the Israelis are fighting are people who danced in the streets to celebrate the 11 September massacres in New York and Washington and who killed something in the neighbourhood of three dozen American citizens on October 7 and still hold American citizens hostage.

I certainly hope the Americans (whoever happens to be in charge when the 30 day deadline expires) will be able to convince the Israelis to declare victory and convince Hamas and Hizbullah to stop shooting, through the application of "leverage" or whatever means are necessary.

But I think it unlikely.

Why should we "mustn't forget"? 9/11 happened, and that was 22 years ago. Maybe half the Palestinians weren't even alive then. Is there a requirement to hold a grudge in perpetuity? Should Americans "never forget" that the dastardly British invaded us not once but twice? Hell, we were in an all out World War with Japan in 1944 and twenty years afterwards we sent a contingent of Olympic contestants to the 1964 Summer Olympics in Tokyo (we won 90 medals).

I am aware that Americans were killed on 10/7 and some are still being held hostage, as well as Israelis. I honestly don't give a damn about any of them anymore. The Israelis have extracted a blood toll of somewhere between 50:1 and 100:1 civilians-to-hostages depending on whose estimates you believe. That's a textbook example of a "war crime" n my mind, and as I've said before, we used to shoot Nazis for "disproportionate response" (i.e. "someone in the village shot a soldier....kill all the inhabitants to teach them a lesson".)

Like you, I hope Israel "bends the knee" to the United States' ultimatum. This carnage has gone on far too long. The fact that Israeli strongman Benjamin Netanyahu made a very public phone call to convicted felon Donald Trump, ostensibly to "ask for advice", was a fairly transparent political ploy to hopefully gin up support for the suddenly "beleagured Israelis", who face a real challenge of attempting to continue their military campaign with offensive weaponry. Trump's advice was a dogwhistle "Do what you gotta do, Bibi" Netanyahu will likely intervene publicly much more in the upcoming American elections, if Trump does not get elected, his options are limited.

I believe this is why Israel is ramping up attacks on other countries: Netanyahu has realized he has very little support amongst Jewish voters in the United States, so he want to antagonize Muslim voters in the United States as much as possible, hoping they will blame the Biden administration and throw there support behind Trump in protest.

 

[Lazaran]

I am aware that Americans were killed on 10/7 and some are still being held hostage, as well as Israelis. I honestly don't give a damn about any of them anymore.

That’s a perspective…



All objectivity lost, and surrendering to emotion…



Hamas has won in this case…



Sinwar may be proven right in suggesting that the new Hamas leadership shouldn’t compromise in the advent of his death because of his belief that the excessive death and destruction in Gaza (which Hamas helped facilitate) would primarily be blamed on the Israelis, and Hamas’ strategy would ultimately succeed thanks to the weakness of western emotionality…

Fuck that ^ !!!



At the end of this war, there can be no scenario where Hamas is in any position of power, and where any of Hamas’ demands are capitulated to. If the Israeli and American hostages are truly lost, then it is incumbent upon the free world and the rule of law to deny Hamas ANY measure (claim) of "victory".

 

[dmallord]

If you’d bother to read any of my posts about Israel (okay if you didn’t, but it makes me do more work), you’d see that I do not in fact hate Israel. What I hate is the fact that Israelis treat Palestinians with about as much respect as they treat Israelis—for the most part—but then you have these two fuckhead “governments” that make it all about annihilation (on both sides). The people that just want to live have their lives destroyed. Israelis are taught to hate Palestinians and vice versa.

Like I said before, this will not end until one side or the other is obliterated.

Sad that it would come to that.

Hamas instigated the current furor by killing Israeli civilians in an abhorrent manner. There seems to be no sanity over there, almost like looney people in America who believe Trump is a good person with a plan to make America great again. Making fries as a political stunt is evidence of that. Trump has no realistic plan for America; he is looking out for himself. Neither do the Hamas operatives have a plan to win the war. Just to fuel continuous warfare. Just hatred.

Do you recall the early videos and textbooks being shown that have math problems created by Hamas using death counts of Jews by young Palestinian kids armed with weapons? It was pure hatred being taught against Jews. Not math. No peace. Not sanity nor any sense of getting along with others. Just hate.

Yes, as Trump would say, good people died on both sides. More good than bad, it looks like, since not enough Hamas members are surrendering or dying to bring about peace.

 

[Hel_Books]

Yes, it's very very different.
Allies in World War 2 focused on defeating the Axis military, and to do so they had to cripple the industrial heart of the Axis powers, as well as destroying their transportation infrastructure. As far as humanly possible, they tried to minimize civilian casualties.

The Israeli military action appears to be to the opposite: maximize civilian casualties. They have been documented shooting aid workers, medical staff, and especially foreign journalists. They routinely bomb mosques, hospitals and refugee camps, under the blanket excuse of "well, we thought Hamas was hiding there".


Why should we "mustn't forget"? 9/11 happened, and that was 22 years ago. Maybe half the Palestinians weren't even alive then. Is there a requirement to hold a grudge in perpetuity? Should Americans "never forget" that the dastardly British invaded us not once but twice? Hell, we were in an all out World War with Japan in 1944 and twenty years afterwards we sent a contingent of Olympic contestants to the 1964 Summer Olympics in Tokyo (we won 90 medals).

I am aware that Americans were killed on 10/7 and some are still being held hostage, as well as Israelis. I honestly don't give a damn about any of them anymore. The Israelis have extracted a blood toll of somewhere between 50:1 and 100:1 civilians-to-hostages depending on whose estimates you believe. That's a textbook example of a "war crime" n my mind, and as I've said before, we used to shoot Nazis for "disproportionate response" (i.e. "someone in the village shot a soldier....kill all the inhabitants to teach them a lesson".)

Like you, I hope Israel "bends the knee" to the United States' ultimatum. This carnage has gone on far too long. The fact that Israeli strongman Benjamin Netanyahu made a very public phone call to convicted felon Donald Trump, ostensibly to "ask for advice", was a fairly transparent political ploy to hopefully gin up support for the suddenly "beleagured Israelis", who face a real challenge of attempting to continue their military campaign with offensive weaponry. Trump's advice was a dogwhistle "Do what you gotta do, Bibi" Netanyahu will likely intervene publicly much more in the upcoming American elections, if Trump does not get elected, his options are limited.

I believe this is why Israel is ramping up attacks on other countries: Netanyahu has realized he has very little support amongst Jewish voters in the United States, so he want to antagonize Muslim voters in the United States as much as possible, hoping they will blame the Biden administration and throw there support behind Trump in protest.

In WWII, even though the armed forces, soldiers, tanks and artillery were usually kept far from civilian areas (V2 rockets weren't launched from the front yards of churches in Berlin, for example) there was plenty of carnage that wasn't exclusively directed at military targets: high-altitude bombing with incendiaries, submarines sinking cargo ships. "scorched earth" tactics on the Russian front, the Dambusters Raid, etc.

As far as "holding a grudge in perpetuity" I wasn't making a statement as to whether or not they SHOULD hold a grudge (just as in the paragraph above I didn't comment on the effectiveness or morality of carpet bombing or unrestricted submarine warfare), I was addressing the question of what the American President would likely do and how Americans would view the issue.

Another thing to consider about Americans is the experience they've had in the past, from the Pueblo incident to the attack on the Teheran embassy to people like that basketballer Brittaney Griner snatched up by Putin, with their citizens being held hostage in an attempt to humiliate or extract a ransom. Even President Roosevelt (Theodore Roosevelt!) had to deal with this when three women (one pregnant) were abducted by Macedonian gunmen in the Ottoman Empire!

In their ordinary life you'll see this sort of thing too. If you've visited the country you'll notice their nightly news frequently has stories of someone "armed and barricaded in a home (or bank or workplace or school) holding hostages" with a list of demands. It's not a happy topic for them.

As for antagonizing Moslem voters in the US, I've read opinion pieces claiming they will turn on Vice President Harris because the American government support Israel. But do they seriously think Donald Trump would less supportive of Israel?

 

[RobDownSouth]

That’s a perspective…



All objectivity lost, and surrendering to emotion…

Five figure civilian death totals tend to wring the last bit of empathy out of a person.

 

[coati]

Living in a swing state, I now see even more commercials demonstrating the "religious-strong-man" political pact between Netanyahu and Trump.

The latest one came out yesterday. It shows three Jewish American women, identified as such by throwing in a few Yiddish expressions, saying that the Democrats are weak on defending Israel and Harris is too busy defending the Squad.

Their conclusion is that Trump is the only rational choice for President. This is what happens what happens when religious wars pervert the meaning of rationality.

We can see this perversion on Lit's PB. There are currently arguments being made over which religions in America and Israel have "smarter" people and should be allowed to dominate the political landscape.

Fuck this mixing of religion and governance. What we really need is freedom from religion.

 

[lessOHmo]

CamelHo hates jews n Israel

Fuck.het

 

[lessOHmo]

Yes, we are better n smarter then you

 

[coati]

Yes, we are better n smarter then you

And that must explain why you just incorrectly used the word "then".

 

[ll74]

Yes, we are better n smarter then you

Umm.....

CamelHo hates jews n Israel

Fuck.het

Right

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Living in a swing state, I now see even more commercials demonstrating the "religious-strong-man" political pact between Netanyahu and Trump.

The latest one came out yesterday. It shows three Jewish American women, identified as such by throwing in a few Yiddish expressions, saying that the Democrats are weak on defending Israel and Harris is too busy defending the Squad.

Their conclusion is that Trump is the only rational choice for President. This is what happens what happens when religious wars pervert the meaning of rationality.

We can see this perversion on Lit's PB. There are currently arguments being made over which religions in America and Israel have "smarter" people and should be allowed to dominate the political landscape.

Fuck this mixing of religion and governance. What we really need is freedom from religion.

Elon Musk is running ads in Muslim areas claiming that Vice President Harris is pro-Israel. The hard left have accused her and Joe Biden of supporting genocide.

Elon Musk is also running ads in Jewish areas claiming that VP Harris supports Hamas. We’ve seen similar claims from conservative members on this message board.

I’m still convinced that Russia and Iran encouraged Hamas to attack on October 7th, 2023 to help Trump win the 2024 election. However Biden and Harris responded could be spun to Trump’s advantage.

 

[coati]

Elon Musk is running ads in Muslim areas claiming that Vice President Harris is pro-Israel. The hard left have accused her and Joe Biden of supporting genocide.

Elon Musk is also running ads in Jewish areas claiming that VP Harris supports Hamas. We’ve seen similar claims from conservative members on this message board.

I’m still convinced that Russia and Iran encouraged Hamas to attack on October 7th, 2023 to help Trump win the 2024 election. However Biden and Harris responded could be spun to Trump’s advantage.

Musk just wants Trump to win. He does not care how this is accomplished. Trump does not care how he achieves his dictator status, either. Both of them base their politics on divide-and-conquer, not on finding common ground. Neither of them give a shit about any of the religions involved-- they just play one against the other as they seek more personal power.

As for Netanyahu, he worked with the Trump administration to deconstruct Obama's nuclear monitoring deal in Iran. This was a lost opportunity for deescalating the potential for a major regional war. In the 2016 election and now, Netanyahu made it clear who he favors to win in the American Presidential election.

Like Russia and Iran, Netanyahu messes in American politics. If Trump wins, Netanyahu will be given a blank check for executing his war in any way he chooses.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Musk just wants Trump to win. He does not care how this is accomplished. Trump does not care how he achieves his dictator status, either. Both of them base their politics on divide-and-conquer, not on finding common ground. Neither of them give a shit about any of the religions involved-- they just play one against the other as they seek more personal power.

As for Netanyahu, he worked with the Trump administration to deconstruct Obama's nuclear monitoring deal in Iran. This was a lost opportunity for deescalating the potential for a major regional war. In the 2016 election and now, Netanyahu made it clear who he favors to win in the American Presidential election.

Like Russia and Iran, Netanyahu messes in American politics. If Trump wins, Netanyahu will be given a blank check for executing his war in any way he chooses.

If Vice President Harris wins, Israel will continue to receive the military support it has received under President Biden. She won’t bow to left-wing pressure to abandon our ally.

 

[lessOHmo]

If Vice President Harris wins, Israel will continue to receive the military support it has received under President Biden. She won’t bow to left-wing pressure to abandon our ally.

fuck off dirtbag....jew hater

 

[Politruk]

If Vice President Harris wins, Israel will continue to receive the military support it has received under President Biden. She won’t bow to left-wing pressure to abandon our ally.

So if Americans want to vote against Israel and for Palestine . . . how should we vote?