closed Thread

[Noor]

"Normal" is subjective. I think "Second Class Citizens" might be more accurate.

92 percent of Palestinian "citizens" in Israel live in ghetto enclaves (Think "Warsaw ghetto" not "Harlem ghetto"). There's also a whole bunch of "Ron DeSantis laws" in Israel, dictating what can and cannot be taught in schools.

once again, bullshit. They are full citizens with the same rights.
Sounds like you don’t actually know any Israelis or Palestinians whereas I do. To be fair I know ones from Israel and the West Bank, both Muslim and Christian. None of them would even visit Gaza since Hamas took power.
No other Arabs country will take Gazan refugees because of past experiences with Palestinians refugees, Egypt won’t even provide medical care. Palestinians have burned a lot of bridges.
All countries dictate what can and can not be taught in school, just like the US.
Save your breath responding Rob. You have no skin in this, you probably don’t know anyone who does. You probably still believe the original UN casualty numbers of women even though the UN themselves half those numbers this week and explained how they came up with them without varifying them at all. To be far, the POTUS also has been using those same unverified mythical numbers.

This is a war in the Middle East, nothing is as straight forward as it seems, and actions are more complicated than most westerns understand. Like why did Hamas kidnap bodies from Israel? So they couldn’t be interned, so their souls/ghosts/whatever will roam the earth and to distress Israelis.

 

[Noor]

Israel has captured a huge amount of people during their incursion into Gaza. Of course more were captured during other attacks on Israel and/or settlements.

My point is that Hamas has concert attendees and Israel has people associated with violence.

Most of the prisoners that Hamas has requested, and they request them individually,are convicted murderers and attempted murders in Israeli prisons, not prisoners of war or those who surrendered . I have no idea what will happen to the surrender as their lives in Gaza are now over has long as Hamas is in power. .

 

[KeithD]

Many Palestinians who are in prison in Israel are there because they were convicted of committing terrorist attacks against Israelis. Hamas took innocent people hostage to force Israel to release the guilty.

That's an unsupported opinion that matches your agenda. The Palestinians have been subjugated by Israel for 80 years (unless we'd prefer to go back to Joshua fording the Jordan and wiping out the people then living in Jericho). Neither you nor anyone else has countered that with any evidence on this thread--with the evidence that Israel gives no regard to Palestinian civilians (or aid workers--or even hostages trying to be rescued) staring us in the face daily. As far as you can evidence, Palestinians are held in detention forever for jaywalking in Tel Aviv--and for use later in prisoner exchanges.

I'm all for wiping Hamas out. I don't see wiping out everyone else in Gaza as a legitimate option. Israel is only doing that because it wants all Palestinians gone. It's been working on that for eighty years.

 

[RobDownSouth]

I didn’t have to read the whole thing. It uses inflated casualty numbers that have already been debunked. It’s not a genocide.

Random intentional destruction with zero regard for civilians is genocide, whether it is 25,000 casualties or 35,000 casualties. I don't understand why people here are jumping for joy that there are fewer casualties when the collective punishment ratio is still in excess of 10:1 (at least) for each Gazan death to each Israeli death. 7000+ documented child deaths by the UN. Does 7000 child deaths make you happy?

Bonus points if you can give an answer without shrugging your shoulders or spluttering "but...but..human shields!".

The simple answer is Gaza is basically an urban warfare zone. Most armies plan accordingly for this, they don't indiscriminately use artillery to level buildings. Only two armies in history have chosen a "raze by artillery" strategy, surprisingly, Nazi Germany is NOT one of those armies. Only the Soviet army (and their Russian descendants) and the Israeli army have adopted this amoral "civilian casualties be damned" approach.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Most of the prisoners that Hamas has requested, and they request them individually,are convicted murderers and attempted murders in Israeli prisons...

Your blanket statement does not pass the "smell test".

Give us a citation for this sweeping generalization or admit you made it up.
If you can supply a citation, I will retract my accusation and apologize.
Until then, you're a G-d damned partisan shill, willing to say or do anything to rationalize Israel's obscene behavior.

 

[ll74]

Most of the prisoners that Hamas has requested, and they request them individually,are convicted murderers and attempted murders in Israeli prisons, not prisoners of war or those who surrendered . I have no idea what will happen to the surrender as their lives in Gaza are now over has long as Hamas is in power. .

Israel likely won't release high profile prisoners of war.

 

[Noor]

I don't understand. What does this have to do with the number of Palestinians held in detention by Israel?

I was responding to why the prisoner exchanges are so high Palestinians to Israelis.
The high number of convicted prisoners in Israel is down to attacks on Israeli citizens regardless of ethnic bathground. This kill Israelis is a long standing issue that has been going on since the British were there.
Prisoner exchanges is also long standing in the area, there are even biblical instructions about it.

 

[KeithD]

The high number of convicted prisoners in Israel is down to attacks on Israeli citizens regardless of ethnic bathground.

That's just your opinion. I've heard directly from Palestinians, including ones who were working in Israel, that they could be thrown into detention for jaywalking in Tel Aviv. This is exactly consistent with being subjugated as less than human for eighty years.

No one has responded to these challenges I posed here:

Show me how the Israelis have treated the Palestinians as human beings over the last eighty years. Show me how they are having any compassion for Palestinian civilians in Gaza now. Show me how that has to include Hamas as well. Don't dodge these questions.

 

[Noor]

That's an unsupported opinion that matches your agenda. The Palestinians have been subjugated by Israel for 80 years (unless we'd prefer to go back to Joshua fording the Jordan and wiping out the people then living in Jericho). Neither you nor anyone else has countered that with any evidence on this thread--with the evidence that Israel gives no regard to Palestinian civilians (or aid workers--or even hostages trying to be rescued) staring us in the face daily. As far as you can evidence, Palestinians are held in detention forever for jaywalking in Tel Aviv--and for use later in prisoner exchanges.

I'm all for wiping Hamas out. I don't see wiping out everyone else in Gaza as a legitimate option. Israel is only doing that because it wants all Palestinians gone. It's been working on that for eighty years.

If Israel wanted to get rid of the Gazans, they would be long gone.
Gaza has been independent since 2005. From then until October 28, no Israelis were in Gaza. During that time the Gazan population has increased at a much faster rate than the rest of the world. 4% compared to 1
Israel doesn’t want all Palestinians gone. They want Hamas gone and they want to stop being attacked.

https://www.prb.org/

 

[Noor]

That's just your opinion. I've heard directly from Palestinians, including ones who were working in Israel, that they could be thrown into detention for jaywalking in Tel Aviv. This is exactly consistent with being subjugated as less than human for eighty years.

No one has responded to these challenges I posed here:

Show me how the Israelis have treated the Palestinians as human beings over the last eighty years. Show me how they are having any compassion for Palestinian civilians in Gaza now. Show me how that has to include Hamas as well. Don't dodge these questions.

That Israeli sends humanitarian aid to Gaza, that they move them from battle areas, set up field hospitals, bring supplies to hospitals, this is more than any other army fighting a war has every done.
The Us or Russia would just slaughter everyone in their path.

 

[Noor]

Israel likely won't release high profile prisoners of war.

They released Sinwar before and they did release high profile prisoners, not prisioner a of war a in the past exchange. So far Hamas has only wanted convicted felons in Israeli prisons and have expressed no interest in prisoners of war. They will get those back after the war anyway so not much point in exchanging hostages or hostage bodies for pows.

 

[KeithD]

The Us or Russia would just slaughter everyone in their path.

OK, that establishes what you are willing to say you believe.

 

[butters]

i don't personally know any Palestinians OR Israelis

but can all those defending Israel's ongoing civilian-negligent attacks support the enormous numbers of Palestinian deaths compared to Israeli ones?

i don't purport to know how Israel can root out hamas without such casualties when so many civilians are herded into such small areas that then get bombed, and i do want to see the end of hamas... but i cannot turn a blind eye to the massively uneven ratio of palestinian to israeli civilians. Even if the figures provided by the health ministry cannot be trusted (they produced lists with names that can be verified or not and these are mainly from hospitals' recordings of death counts though there are also outside sources), as far as i'm aware that count is incomplete, not taking into account bodies still buried beneath buildings. There are multiple blocks of collapsed apartments, for example, with no way yet of reaching anyone who lost their lives in the bombings.

even if you halve that health ministry number, when you add in all the unaccounted for still lost because there's no chance of recovering them yet when the populations are being herded one place to another, it's wildly disproportionate.

Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...ilitary-offensive-gaza-since-oct7-2024-04-09/

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war

 

[Lazaran]

Random intentional destruction with zero regard for civilians is genocide, whether it is 25,000 casualties or 35,000 casualties. I don't understand why people here are jumping for joy that there are fewer casualties when the collective punishment ratio is still in excess of 10:1 (at least) for each Gazan death to each Israeli death. 7000+ documented child deaths by the UN. Does 7000 child deaths make you happy?

Bonus points if you can give an answer without shrugging your shoulders or spluttering "but...but..human shields!".

The simple answer is Gaza is basically an urban warfare zone. Most armies plan accordingly for this, they don't indiscriminately use artillery to level buildings. Only two armies in history have chosen a "raze by artillery" strategy, surprisingly, Nazi Germany is NOT one of those armies. Only the Soviet army (and their Russian descendants) and the Israeli army have adopted this amoral "civilian casualties be damned" approach.

The Hamas animals really should never have conducted their 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.



And the Hamas animals should really surrender and release the hostages.

 

[KeithD]

They want Hamas gone and they want to stop being attacked.

https://www.prb.org/

And they are willing to starve and slaughter other Palestinians to get there. Palestinians aren't fully human to them. You and others refuse to address that. That isn't opinion or theory. It's what's happening.

 

[KeithD]

aren't?

Right, thanks. I caught that on a reread and corrected it.

 

[butters]

The Hamas animals really should never have conducted their 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation.



And the Hamas animals should really surrender and release the hostages.

i don't think anyone here has argued against that; rather, we all agree on that point

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

And they are willing to starve and slaughter other Palestinians to get there. Palestinians aren't fully human to them. You and others refuse to address that. That isn't opinion or theory. It's what's happening.

The Israelis have taken greater care with Palestinian lives than Hamas itself.

 

[KeithD]

The Israelis have taken greater care with Palestinian lives than Hamas itself.

That's your unsupported opinion. I think neither takes care of the Palestinian civilians. That doesn't excuse the Israelis for what we all can watch what they are doing.

The Biden administration, with Biden being a long-time supporter of Israel, has parted from Israel on this issue, which is an extraordinary step that highlights how beyond the pale the Netanyahu government is on this. I support this public separation.

I support not providing as much as a bullet in the slaughter the Netanyahu government is imposing on the people of Gaza, while I support Israel's defensive posture to Hamas and other anti-Israel forces in the region. I know that's nearly impossible to accomplish, but I'm not one here who is claiming anything on this is simple.

And, no, you and others haven't responded to the challenges I laid down on this other than giving unsupported opinion in the face of what we all can see for ourselves is happening in Gaza.

And BULLSHIT to your claim that Israel is doing anything to care for the needs of anyone in Gaza.

 

[Lazaran]

i don't personally know any Palestinians OR Israelis

but can all those defending Israel's ongoing civilian-negligent attacks support the enormous numbers of Palestinian deaths compared to Israeli ones?

i don't purport to know how Israel can root out hamas without such casualties when so many civilians are herded into such small areas that then get bombed, and i do want to see the end of hamas... but i cannot turn a blind eye to the massively uneven ratio of palestinian to israeli civilians. Even if the figures provided by the health ministry cannot be trusted (they produced lists with names that can be verified or not and these are mainly from hospitals' recordings of death counts though there are also outside sources), as far as i'm aware that count is incomplete, not taking into account bodies still buried beneath buildings. There are multiple blocks of collapsed apartments, for example, with no way yet of reaching anyone who lost their lives in the bombings.

even if you halve that health ministry number, when you add in all the unaccounted for still lost because there's no chance of recovering them yet when the populations are being herded one place to another, it's wildly disproportionate.

Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...ilitary-offensive-gaza-since-oct7-2024-04-09/

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war

Sadly (and tragically), Hamas is counting / preying on your humanity to help them achieve their goals.



I am generally the most peace loving / conflict resolution type person you will ever meet: Then something like 10/7 happens, and I steel myself and harden my heart to support the difficult work that must be done to address such evil and barbaric behavior.



I hate Hamas for putting me in this position. And my anger toward Hamas fuels my determination that their plan not succeed - even at the cost of some innocent lives among the population that purportedly supports them.



Ask yourself this:

If, after all of the death and suffering brought about by the Hamas terrorists’ October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation, (and the subsequent Israeli response), the Hamas terrorists are allowed to not only remain in power, but have their ranks swelled by the release of murderers from Israeli prisons, will that be an acceptable outcome???



Because, short of the intrusive rooting out of the Hamas terrorists from Gaza (and the inevitable and unavoidable accompanying death and destruction), that WILL be the outcome.



As tragic and painful as this conflict is proving to be, the Hamas reign of terror must end now (imho).

I can only hope that this taste of real death and suffering is enough to get the Palestinian people to choose a different path than Hanas, etc.

 

[Rightguide]

There’s growing concern on the left that the blatant antisemitism of the university encampments wasn’t just harmful to the Jews who were directly affected, it did serious damage to the cause of social justice in general.

When bigotry and intolerance are allowed to flourish among the radicals, it makes it harder for the rest of us to push back against white supremacy and misogyny.

The bigger problem is the institutions themselves have created propaganda centers that can turn out discord and terror forces that threaten the national security of the United States.

 

[Rightguide]

Random intentional destruction with zero regard for civilians is genocide, whether it is 25,000 casualties or 35,000 casualties. I don't understand why people here are jumping for joy that there are fewer casualties when the collective punishment ratio is still in excess of 10:1 (at least) for each Gazan death to each Israeli death. 7000+ documented child deaths by the UN. Does 7000 child deaths make you happy?

Bonus points if you can give an answer without shrugging your shoulders or spluttering "but...but..human shields!".

The simple answer is Gaza is basically an urban warfare zone. Most armies plan accordingly for this, they don't indiscriminately use artillery to level buildings. Only two armies in history have chosen a "raze by artillery" strategy, surprisingly, Nazi Germany is NOT one of those armies. Only the Soviet army (and their Russian descendants) and the Israeli army have adopted this amoral "civilian casualties be damned" approach.

Yet your grandfather's generation flattened 69 Japanese cities killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people without batting an eye.

 

[Lazaran]

i don't think anyone here has argued against that; rather, we all agree on that point

I hope you know that I’m being purposefully extreme in response to those who, imho, glossed right over 10/7 and went straight back into “blame Israel for everything” mode.



Also:

I can honestly say, that never in my entire lifetime have I seen the details of an event as horrific as 10/7 so quickly forgotten / ignored / abandoned in favor of a demented counter-narrative that saddles Israel with the lion’s share of the blame for the current situation in Gaza.



The Hamas propaganda is working like a charm. - (I blame the 24/7 news cycle and social media, for the rise in the effectiveness of propaganda.)

 

[Lazaran]

The bigger problem is the institutions themselves have created propaganda centers that can turn out discord and terror forces that threaten the national security of the United States.

You’re a traitor and a threat to national security.

You and the far left have a lot in common.

STFU

 

[snailspace]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1791181279712477470