circumcision...ugh

[TumbledLove]

There has been some sort of painful body modification of nonconsenting children in virtually all societies from piercing to stretching of necks, earlobes, lips (both types), male circumcision, female circumcision.

Would you make them all illegal?

Is there no room for cultural self-determination of what's permissible?

No, there isn't. not when it comes to permanently modifiying a baby's body without them knowing what's happening, or without their permission.

and that's really at the heart of why I oppose circumcision.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

So, yes, there is a double standard. I would not be allowed to trim a daughter's labia (a standard cosmetic procedure nowadays, with claims of no sexual damage) though I would be allowed to trim a son's foreskin. So, YES, there are double standards, in the form a 5 year jail sentence.

Are you really this passionate about wanting the right to trim a daughter's genitalia?

C'mon man. This is about your dick.

And this is absolutely about people wanting others to look like themselves.

 

[TumbledLove]

it is not a debate on better vs worse. It is a debate on individual autonomy, and double standards, and the right to modify someone else's body for reasons of one's own preference.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Calamity Jane]

No, there isn't. not when it comes to permanently modifiying a baby's body without them knowing what's happening, or without their permission.

and that's really at the heart of why I oppose circumcision.

We don't require a child's permission to do ANYTHING that we deem medically necessary.

If I had asked my children's permission before having them vaccinated, do you think they would have agreed?

You're making completely illogical arguments to attempt to explain your stance. Why don't you just admit that the thought of a scalpel anywhere near Jr's penis scares the hell out of you?

 

[EarnestImp]

Are you really this passionate about wanting the right to trim a daughter's genitalia?
C'mon man. This is about your dick.
And this is absolutely about people wanting others to look like themselves.

Of course I am. Floppy labia are disgusting and ugly and I wouldn't want a daughter to have them. I've seen them and it ain't pretty.

Why are you Americans such fanatics about a little snip to a girl's pussy? You guys need counselling. What kind of a control freak would throw a person in jail for five years for a teensy snip? Just what is your collective obsession with this issue? I think Freud was right about you guys.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

No, there isn't. not when it comes to permanently modifiying a baby's body without them knowing what's happening, or without their permission.

and that's really at the heart of why I oppose circumcision.

The problem with that sort of argument is that it's not compelling to those in others in certain other societies. They simply don't recognize the autonomy of infants in that same way. In order to have them respect the autonomy of a child you have to infringe on their autonomy.

Fine as I see no way around this. If other cultures are committing what I consider to be barbarous acts to their children (as in removing the clitoris, binding feet, etc.), I'll oppose it and support those who would infringe the right of people to commit these acts on children.

But for acts that are relatively innocuous (as male circumcision clearly is) there really isn't a justification as I see it.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Of course I am. Floppy labia are disgusting and ugly and I wouldn't want a daughter to have them. I've seen them and it ain't pretty.

Why are you Americans such fanatics about a little snip to a girl's pussy? You guys need counselling. What kind of a control freak would throw a person in jail for five years for a teensy snip? Just what is your collective obsession with this issue? I think Freud was right about you guys.

Are the British different in this regard?

Is there some wave of female genital modification sweeping the Isles? LOL

 

[wildthang]

I think having newborn males circumsized is appropriate if done proffessionally and healthily(sp). I agree that hygenically it is much more condusive, considering most young boys(and teens and some men) have personal hygeine management issues (tee hee) also when he is in diapers there is constant risk of infection, due to the excess skin you have to clean ( with a damp q-tip to make sure you get EVERY CREVIS) diaper rash can be worse too.

On the other hand, it can have repercussions, most of the sensitiviy in the head of the penis is lost. It takes several days to heal which involves you putting ointments on it and making sure it stays dry, he will scream in PAIN every time he needs a diaper change as opposed to discomfort. He will ask questions regaurdless because some guys have foreskin some guys dont so that is just something you have to keep in mind...Some boys get upset that they had something on them altered (but there is restoration... its expensive and painful though) (on the other hand some girls complain about the parents peircing there ears when they were babies...yet another infantile body mod. that is very very common)


If you feel its it best for YOUR CHILD (and you arent doing it because you have a personal preferance for cut guys) then I don't see anything wrong with it, I too will have to make that descision someday and I have yet to decided what I would feel is best for my son.

 

[Romial]

Of course I am. Floppy labia are disgusting and ugly and I wouldn't want a daughter to have them. I've seen them and it ain't pretty.

Why are you Americans such fanatics about a little snip to a girl's pussy? You guys need counselling. What kind of a control freak would throw a person in jail for five years for a teensy snip? Just what is your collective obsession with this issue? I think Freud was right about you guys.

Shut the fuck up and let this thread die. For the love of god. If you can still pee and cum, then it works so leave it at that. Jeeze.

 

[TumbledLove]

We don't require a child's permission to do ANYTHING that we deem medically necessary.

The sanctity of a child's body supercedes whatever justification you can come up with. Especially when it concerns making a *permanent* physical alteration. Giving them shots is something I borderline do not agree with.

The only exception is if their life is in grave and immediate danger (such as a burst appendix, heart failure, etc).

 

[EarnestImp]

I think having newborn males circumsized is appropriate if done proffessionally and healthily(sp). I agree that hygenically it is much more condusive, considering most young boys(and teens and some men) have personal hygeine management issues (tee hee) also when he is in diapers there is constant risk of infection, due to the excess skin you have to clean ( with a damp q-tip to make sure you get EVERY CREVIS) diaper rash can be worse too..

Well, no. Uncirced babies should not be cleaned besides just a regular bath. Essentially, it should just be left alone. And studies show that circed babies tend to have more problems with effects from diapers on the wound. Yeah, yeah, someone will call me a fanatic for pointing this out, but it is the accepted wisdom in baby care.

When I read these strange notions about how hard it is to care for a normal infant I have to concur that there is a weird foreskin obsession in the air, but not the one people usually claim.

 

[TumbledLove]

Let's pretend that you have a baby girl with a serious genetic defect, and the doctors say that while she'll live until adulthood, she will live with great pain, and have infections thoughout her life. Now, in all likelyhood, this disease will probably be passed on to her children.

Do you, as the parent, have the right to tell the doctors to perform a hysterectomy on her? After all, you wouldn't want her children to suffer like her, would you?

 

[smy3th]

The sanctity of a child's body

There you go with those religious arguments again.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Interesting. We have some folks here arguing for an expansion of genital modification practices and others saying that all genital modification is off-limits.

EarnestImp and TumbledLove, y'all aren't arguing nearly enough.

 

[EarnestImp]

Interesting. We have some folks here arguing for an expansion of genital modification practices and others saying that all genital modification is off-limits.
EarnestImp and TumbledLove, y'all aren't arguing nearly enough.

You're anaemic Oliver. You need a bit more irony in your diet.

 

[TumbledLove]

There you go with those religious arguments again.

I knew you'd catch that. but in any case, I don't consider "holy" to equate to religion. feel free to go off on a tangent (like I know you will). but I couldn't find a better word to use. "sanctity," perhaps, but then again, that the same thing as holy.

 

[wildthang]

Well, no. Uncirced babies should not be cleaned besides just a regular bath. Essentially, it should just be left alone. And studies show that circed babies tend to have more problems with effects from diapers on the wound. Yeah, yeah, someone will call me a fanatic for pointing this out, but it is the accepted wisdom in baby care.

When I read these strange notions about how hard it is to care for a normal infant I have to concur that there is a weird foreskin obsession in the air, but not the one people usually claim.

YA... I was in the hospital with my aunt with my cousin was born, he was a day (or two) old and they were discussing whether to circ. or not, the nurse as well as her OB explained to her that if he stays uncut you have to use damp q-tips to remove all defication from his penis because it can get nasty smelly and can cause irritation or infection. The thing is though, you have to make sure you clean girls up really well too because it can cause the same problems (girls are easier to clean up for the most part though, in my opinion)

I say do what you feel is best for your kid and be done with it.


Oh and as far as female circ. goes, if it is done in a proffesional healthy manner and is done for appropriate reasons (real religious reasons or health, not to hinder and hurt a womans life). The problem is that it is not, it actually causes many health problems and can lead to death sometimes. It is done on dirt floors in fuckin' mud huts by witch doctors.... so that is why it is so frowned apon, let alone the fact that its primary purpose is to prohibit a woman from enjoying sex or having sex at all. Last I checked it is very uncommon for male newborns to bleed to death from circ., whereas it is common for 5 and 6 year old girls to bleed to death from having the clitoris and parts of their labia cut off!! I know I sound like some oprah winfrey fem freak but I am just being honest.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Let's pretend that you have a baby girl with a serious genetic defect, and the doctors say that while she'll live until adulthood, she will live with great pain, and have infections thoughout her life. Now, in all likelyhood, this disease will probably be passed on to her children.

Do you, as the parent, have the right to tell the doctors to perform a hysterectomy on her? After all, you wouldn't want her children to suffer like her, would you?

Your point? Are you claiming that circumcision causes genetic abnormalities in future children, infections, great pain, etc?

You're doing absolutely nothing to dispel the assumption that you're a moron.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

You're anaemic Oliver. You need a bit more irony in your diet.

Dumb it down for the "ironically challenged" then.

 

[EarnestImp]

YA... I was in the hospital with my aunt with my cousin was born, he was a day (or two) old and they were discussing whether to circ. or not, the nurse as well as her OB explained to her that if he stays uncut you have to use damp q-tips to remove all defication from his penis because it can get nasty smelly and can cause irritation or infection.

American Academy of Pediatrics guidelines: http://www.cirp.org/library/normal/aap/

The uncircumcised penis is easy to keep clean. No special care is required! No attempt should be made to forcibly retract the foreskin. No manipulation is necessary. There is no need for special cleansing with Q-tips, irrigation, or antiseptics; soap and water externally will suffice.

 

[TumbledLove]

Your point? Are you claiming that circumcision causes genetic abnormalities in future children, infections, great pain, etc?

You're doing absolutely nothing to dispel the assumption that you're a moron.

Good job answering the question. You should go into politics. I wish I had a "buddy" list, so I could add you to it.

edit: Yay! I found the buddy list! I feel closer to you already.

 

[Hester]

actually, I was a rotten child, not to mention a complete smart-ass, and have called my mother a cock-sucker on more than one occasion.

you should be ashamed at sounding so proud about this

 

[OUTSIDER]

Good job answering the question. You should go into politics. I wish I had a "buddy" list, so I could add you to it.

edit: Yay! I found the buddy list! I feel closer to you already.

LOL.... How long do you reckon it'll be before they realise your just yanking their collective chains

 

[TumbledLove]

you should be ashamed at sounding so proud about this

probably. and everyone else should be ashamed for trying to justify the mass practice of hacking off natural part of a baby's body. not just any baby.. a baby *boy*. girl's are special and can't be touch. unless, one day, it becomes common practice to rape them right after they're born. you know.. don't want those hymens in there, because hymens are bad and will just cause her to bleed later in life. So might as well nip it in the bud, and get rid of it ASAP. I'm justified in saying that, so it must be ok to do. who cares what she wants?

 

[Hester]

probably. and everyone else should be ashamed for trying to justify the mass practice of hacking off natural part of a baby's body. not just any baby.. a baby *boy*. girl's are special and can't be touch. unless, one day, it becomes common practice to rape them right after they're born. you know.. don't want those hymens in there, because hymens are bad and will just cause her to bleed later in life. So might as well nip it in the bud, and get rid of it ASAP. I'm justified in saying that, so it must be ok to do. who cares what she wants?

you really should seek help.

penile angst of this degree is neither normal nor healthy, nor is projecting your penile angst on baby boys in general.