circumcision...ugh

[EarnestImp]

It was TumbledLove who attempted to assert what God does or does not intend, as if he knew what God's intentions are, as if God talks to him.

You said that anyone who thinks that god talks to them has serious problems (agreed), but then suggested that the standard doesn't apply to the authors of the OT because God might actually have been talking to them....and never subsequently suggested that this last remark might be ironical (although what the point of such a throwaway ironical remark might be evades me).

And then you went on this weird kinky paedophilia bender when you ran out of arguments...

 

[Calamity Jane]

Babies do not scream like this when they are born.

Babies don't scream like that? Dude, do you HAVE kids? My kids sounded like that every time they woke up and wanted to eat. Or every time their diaper needed changed, or every time they simply wanted to scream. And they were GOOD, QUIET babies.

That was nothing.

 

[TumbledLove]

ya know, I'd bet if people started cutting the ears off of pets (such as a dog or cat), then they'd be ridiculed and punished for animal cruelty. Does anyone else agree, or do you all think that cutting the ears off of kittens is an ok thing to do? I mean, it's just a "flap of skin", right?


and yes, I am aware that's it's perfectly legal to spay/neuter pets. but for some reason, I'm not sure cutting off other body parts would be as permissable.

 

[EarnestImp]

Babies don't scream like that? Dude, do you HAVE kids? My kids sounded like that every time they woke up and wanted to eat. Or every time their diaper needed changed, or every time they simply wanted to scream. And they were GOOD, QUIET babies

It is acknowledged in the medical literature that doctors don't let parents see circs done because of the obvious way it hurts the kid, well above and beyond normal crying.

Journal of Pediatrics ref, see last parapgraph.

 

[Calamity Jane]

ya know, I'd bet if people started cutting the ears off of pets (such as a dog or cat), then they'd be ridiculed and punished for animal cruelty. Does anyone else agree, or do you all think that cutting the ears off of kittens is an ok thing to do? I mean, it's just a "flap of skin", right?

You mean like we do to LOTS of breeds of dogs? We cut the tails off of them too. We dock (cut off) horse's tails if they're to be used for carriages. We cut the balls right off most of our male pets, and rip the uterus out of the females.

What, exactly, is your point?

 

[TumbledLove]

What, exactly, is your point?

I guess once we start treating animals as being below us, and having no rights, then we become animals ourselves. So much for being more intelligent.

 

[Calamity Jane]

It is acknowledged in the medical literature that doctors don't let parents see circs done because of the obvious way it hurts the kid, well above and beyond normal crying.

Journal of Pediatrics ref, see last parapgraph.

Funny, when I was told I was having a boy, and decided that the child would be circumsized, I was informed that they prefer to have a parent in the room, as a calming influence on the child. That the child is generally calmer, and exhibits far fewer stress symptoms if the parent (particularly the mother) is in the room, maintaining physical contact with the child.

I'd be willing to bet that most of that screaming comes from being restrained. You should have heard my kid scream when she had to be strapped down for xrays.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

As a psychiatrist, it makes me wonder what makes this issue so compelling for some people.

Seems like this is one area where Freud may have been relatively on-target.

 

[overthebow]

my poor son...but he's having it done

and one of the first decisions i have to make as a mom is whether to traumatize him on the first or second day of his birth

My five year old isn't and it is interesting to see him play with in the bathtub. It makes me wince.

 

[Calamity Jane]

I guess once we start treating animals as being below us, and having no rights, then we become animals ourselves. So much for being more intelligent.

Are you really a moron, or do you just play one on Lit?

Would you prefer that we NOT treat them as 'below us'? I suppose we COULD let them make all their own decisions, not spay/neuter them, not keep them fed and warm and dry and well groomed, and vaccinated and healthy for far longer than they'd ever achieve if nature was allowed to take its course.

 

[TumbledLove]

So is animal cruelty acceptable, or not? and more importantly, what constitutes it, if not the removal of tails/genitals/etc?

 

[smy3th]

And then you went on this weird kinky paedophilia bender when you ran out of arguments...

Actually no, my argument throughout the discussion has been neither for nor against circumcision, just against the kinky obsession with it. I didn't run out of arguments about circumcision because I wasn't making one. I advised that if you are going to have it done, the first day is probably the best, but other than that, I have been pretty neutral. As I pointed out, my Biblical quotes were in opposition to it. My assertion that your obsession with the issue is wierd has been my main point from the start. The obsession is wierd and kinky.

 

[TumbledLove]

Are you really a moron, or do you just play one on Lit?

hey, I'm not the stupid bitch that is using circular reasoning to justify cutting off the ears of kittens. and I'm also not one that resorts to name calling..

oops, too late.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

So is animal cruelty acceptable, or not? and more importantly, what constitutes it, if not the removal of tails/genitals/etc?

It's a good question. I'd say that it's intentionally causing pain and suffering to an animal without a good reason.

What constitutes a "good reason" is debateable, but I'd say birth control is certainly one of them.

 

[Calamity Jane]

So is animal cruelty acceptable, or not? and more importantly, what constitutes it, if not the removal of tails/genitals/etc?

This is the most bizarre hijack ever (not really), but I'll play.

I think that animal cruelty in the form of truly sadistic behavior meant only to inflict pain/harm/trauma on an animal for the enjoyment of the inflictor to be unacceptable.

I do NOT find spaying/neutering/docking tails/ears to be unacceptable if done by a licensed veterinarian using all precautions for the animals' safety and well-being. Are there lasting effects? Probably. But I never noticed my boxer, or my mother's Yorkies wandering around the house looking for the other half of their tail. My cat doesn't appear to miss his balls, and I'm pretty sure my dog isn't going to be fretting over her lost uterus for years to come.

 

[EarnestImp]

As a psychiatrist, it makes me wonder what makes this issue so compelling for some people.
Seems like this is one area where Freud may have been relatively on-target.

Freud thought that the practice of circumcision was a symbolic castration:

Circumcision is a symbolical substitute of castration, a punishment which the primaeval father dealt his sons long ago out of the awfulness of his power, and whosoever accepted this symbol showed by so doing that he was ready to submit to his father's will, although it was at the cost of a painful sacrifice. - Sigmund Freud, "Moses and Monotheism"

So if you and Freud are correct, American society seems to have some sort of weird symbolic castration obsession.....

Not sure if I agree with you, though.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

I was actually referring to people on the internet who obsess about it endlessly.

 

[Calamity Jane]

hey, I'm not the stupid bitch that is using circular reasoning to justify cutting off the ears of kittens. and I'm also not one that resorts to name calling..

oops, too late.

You're the only one who mentioned cutting the ears off kittens - in a thread about circumcision - which is pretty fucking stupid and bizarre. If you can explain coherently how the two issues are at all related, or how a human child compares to a kitten or a puppy, I'll be more than happy to retract my statement about you being a moron.

 

[Calamity Jane]

I was actually referring to people on the internet who obsess about it endlessly.

Maybe it's just an obsession on Lit. Right up there with Judaism, declawing cats, and the eternal to shave or not to shave debate.

 

[EarnestImp]

I was actually referring to people on the internet who obsess about it endlessly.

Really? The ironic intent of my post seems to have gone right over your head, but if you crane your neck you might still catch a glimpse of it. Freud did talk about circumcision obsession, but only relating to the symbolic castration fetishism of those who circumcise.

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Don't forget cock-size threads.

Absolutely essential.

 

[TumbledLove]

I'm talking about the *removal of a flap of skin*, and the rights (or lack of rights) that babies have. If I cut off flaps of skin on some newborn kittens, and word got around to the wrong people, then I'd bet that the law would look into charging me with animal cruelty. So my point is that animals sometimes have more rights than humans. But you're saying that's it's not true, and we can cut off whatever we want. So, nevermind. I guess you shot down my point.

and, yet, animal cruelty laws still exist.?

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Really? The ironic intent of my post seems to have gone right over your head, but if you crane your neck you might still catch a glimpse of it. Freud did talk about circumcision obsession, but only relating to the symbolic castration fetishism of those who circumcise.

Sorry, still missing your supposed irony.

Why are you so exorcised about the idea that some people snip a bit of skin off boys' penises?

 

[Calamity Jane]

Don't forget cock-size threads.

Absolutely essential.

I wonder if circumcision affects the cock size of the man?

 

[TumbledLove]

Why are you so exorcised about the idea that some people snip a bit of skin off boys' penises?

Why are you so exorcised about the amount of skin that's being snipped off?