circumcision...ugh

[Guest]

I've thought that for a long time too, a major immigration of one population that digs circumcision must have occured... but I've always been stumped as to which culture it was and when they emmigrated...

I suppose it only takes one person to be circumcised at birth for others to have done the same for many generations to come... simply because that person will never understand what they're missing out on sexually. And the converse of that which occurs in places strongly against it. So maybe getting a whole culture to be pro-circumcision isn't so hard.

I don't think it has much to do with any particular group of immigrants. I think at some point, it is something that the American medical system decided to begin doing as a routine practice. The question, of course, would be when did that happen, and why did doctors decide to start doing that? What made them believe that it is "more hygienic" etc? (because that's usually the reason given for it by American doctors--although doctors in other countries would tell you that it doesn't make any difference in a person's hygiene).

Also, I think it's a myth that all Americans get circumsized. There are many parents who come here from other countries, have their children, and choose not to circumsize them. It's just that we tend to think of Americans as white, anglo peoples rather than as the people who have come here from other places and applied for citizenship, etc. I live on the East Coast, and where I live I see lots of people from Latin America, India, Thailand and China. While I've never gone around to survey people about it, I'd be willing to bet that if the countries they come from don't practice circumcision as a routine procedure they're unlikely to have chosen to do that for their sons who were born here.

 

[onebadkitty]

Don't like it? There's always the ignore button. Try it.

Look, I can state what I don't like just as you can, and my opinion is worth just as much as yours (more, if you ask me.)

 

[EarnestImp]

So that brings me to the question: Why did the U.S. start instituting this practice as hygienic, routine, and important? And when did that happen in our culture?

Here's a Journal of Social History article.

In brief, it began in the late 1800s with quack medicine and anti-masturbatory paranoia - intact men like to wank by sliding the skin back and forth, and circ'ed men usually need a lube, so the thought was that masturbation could be suppressed by circ. Then it just acquired momentum within the medical profession, and culturally it was seen as a way of distinguishing clean native white Ango-Saxon Americans from unclean Catholic European immigrants. And at a certain point it just became the majority practice.

 

[Gord]

Look, I can state what I don't like just as you can, and my opinion is worth just as much as yours (more, if you ask me.)

yep its all about opinions - and everybody has one


but it does help if people back up their opinions with some logical arguments , as opposed to just saying my opinion is worth more than yours na na na na

it does if there is going to be an ongoing discussion / debate

I think that Earnestimp writes and argues pretty well -

 

[EarnestImp]

You first.

Why? I'm not the one bitching and trying to persuade other people to play nice. I don't care what other people post and I don't play nice. Don't you see? If people don't like my posts, they can ignore me instead of telling me to stop laying on guilt.

 

[JammieDodger]

yep its all about opinions - and everybody has one


but it does help if people back up their opinions with some logical arguments , as opposed to just saying my opinion is worth more than yours na na na na

it does if there is going to be an ongoing discussion / debate

I think that Earnestimp writes and argues pretty well -

I agree entirely...

we're fucked if they notice our locations

 

[onebadkitty]

yep its all about opinions - and everybody has one


but it does help if people back up their opinions with some logical arguments , as opposed to just saying my opinion is worth more than yours na na na na

it does if there is going to be an ongoing discussion / debate

I think that Earnestimp writes and argues pretty well -

I've already given my reasons for feeling this way and that's as "logical" as I'm gonna' get on this thread. Besides, earnest's points are no more important/logical/better than mine just because he has some googled facts to "support" his. My point was and is, I don't have to put on ignore anyone I disagree with as he suggested. I have just as much right as he/she does to post an opinion.

 

[EarnestImp]

Besides, earnest's points are no more important/logical/better than mine just because he has some googled facts to "support" his.

Oh, heavens, good point here. Mustn't let pesky information get in the way of your argument. I apologize for my dirty trick of introducing facts and figures into this debate. It was utterly uncalled for. Your tactic of repeatedly asserting your opinion without benefit of logical or empirical underpinnings is indeed the Path to True Enlightenment.

 

[Guest]

Here's a Journal of Social History article.

In brief, it began in the late 1800s with quack medicine and anti-masturbatory paranoia - intact men like to wank by sliding the skin back and forth, and circ'ed men usually need a lube, so the thought was that masturbation could be suppressed by circ. Then it just acquired momentum within the medical profession, and culturally it was seen as a way of distinguishing clean native white Ango-Saxon Americans from unclean Catholic European immigrants. And at a certain point it just became the majority practice.

Very nice article reference. I just finished reading it. It looks like a very good piece of scholarly work. Thanks

 

[Gord]

I've already given my reasons for feeling this way and that's as "logical" as I'm gonna' get on this thread. Besides, earnest's points are no more important/logical/better than mine just because he has some googled facts to "support" his. My point was and is, I don't have to put on ignore anyone I disagree with as he suggested. I have just as much right as he/she does to post an opinion.

what ???

I think Earnestimps points were way more logical than yours - certainly more logical and well though than mine - but writing my thoughts in a logical manner has never been my strong suit

Sure we can all google facts till the cows come home , but it takes more than that

 

[thegirlfriday11]

Look, you're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. UTIs occur in well under 1% of infants, and when they do occur they are treatable, with renal problems being a very rare complication. Don't rationalize a personal preference. You can argue all you want, but there seems to be no medical society position paper that claims a significant overall advantage to circ, in terms of benefits versus risks.

and i said quite plainly that i think a circumcision is better than my son facing any risk of infection due to a bunch of disgusting, unattractive foreskin

 

[JammieDodger]

and i said quite plainly that i think a circumcision is better than my son facing any risk of infection due to a bunch of disgusting, unattractive foreskin

You realise it doesn't eliminate the risk, yes? You also realise that some women find the foreskin to be more attractive than without, I'd say there were equal numbers of people who like foreskin and those who don't...

Thats whats confusing me, why oh why are you bringing in your opinion of what looks good with regards to your son's cock?

1% risk of infection... it gets reduced a bit by circumcision... circumcision takes about two thirds of a penis' erogenous nerves out of it... any possible infection is easily treatable with antibiotics with a few very very rare exceptions... sorry, I don't think its something I'll ever understand, his toenail might become ingrown at somepoint in his life, causing much pain and discomfort, whilst its treatable with antibiotics, why not severe his toes now?

 

[thegirlfriday11]

Then why do you keep responding?

i started the thread, that's why

You have demonstrated yourself medically ignorant on several points:

1) you claim that nerve blocks are not appropriate, yet the literature (see my cites) is filled with successful use of nerve blocks to dull the pain of neonate circ.

2) you claim an overall medical benefit for circ, yet no medical society position paper agrees with you.

Like I said, you are entitled to any opinion you want (as am I), but you are not entitled to your own version of the facts, particularly when they contradict the published literature.

i'm not ignorant of any facts

as i've stated over and over again, i believe the benefits to circumcision outweight uncircumcision

 

[EarnestImp]

and i said quite plainly that i think a circumcision is better than my son facing any risk of infection due to a bunch of disgusting, unattractive foreskin

See, this isn't a rational opinion, because the risk of infection is small, and is not markedly different than the risk of complications from the procedure itself. And the procedure is on average more painful than any typical infection of a foreskin, except that the pain of circ is 100% certain to happen rather than a couple of percent chance (if that) of a foreskin infection.

The words "disgusting" and "unattractive" are a dead giveaway that the underlying motivations are not medical, they are personal and cultural and aesthetic.

Why am I hammering away at this point? Because, essentially, you are full of shit. You are trying to rationalize a personal preference with pseudo-medical arguments, because you cannot bring yourself to admit that you cannot psychologically handle normal male anatomy. Have whatever opinion you want, and do whatever you want to do, but just be honest about your motivations.

You are more comfortable with strapping your kid to a board and carving up his genitals than with the thought of him having normal male anatomy, which you have been trained to regard as weird. That is the whole story. Give up on the transparent rationalizations.

 

[thegirlfriday11]

Weird.

I have never seen cut penis irl. I think here you get cut about only for religious reason. I dont believe health is any issue. All men I have met have known how to wash it anyway.

And what comes to attractiveness... if you pull foreskin back it looks like cut one. I think a penis with foreskin is way more intrigueing.

I guess its your decidion though in my opinion it might be something to leave for everyone to decide themselves... I get kind of disturbed by that "unattractive" comment though...

i have and i think it's gross

i've taken care of uncut patients and have had to start catheters on them and clean them and it is disgusting

i'm sorry if the unattractive part bothers you, but that is exactly what i think

 

[bytor2112]

anyone who thinks an infant will be traumitized by circumcision is a complete and hopeless stupid fuck....

no one day old or one week old kid will remember...the traumatic thing for this kid is that he will have a moron for a mother...

 

[EarnestImp]

i've taken care of uncut patients and have had to start catheters on them and clean them and it is disgusting

Wow! Have you ever had to clean a female's genitalia? If you have a daughter, will you also surgically strip away any un-necessary bits of flesh? Or does your logic apply only to the male persuasion?

 

[Gord]

i started the thread, that's why



i'm not ignorant of any facts

as i've stated over and over again, i believe the benefits to circumcision outweight uncircumcision

yes you dont like the look of a normal penis ....and it could get a bit smelly if not washed - just like all part of our bodies - if not washed they could get dirty

good reasoning

 

[JammieDodger]

anyone who thinks an infant will be traumitized by circumcision is a complete and hopeless stupid fuck....

no one day old or one week old kid will remember...the traumatic thing for this kid is that he will have a moron for a mother...

You're not getting it, its not about remembering. My brother grew up in nigeria, he has no memories of his childhood from when he was under the age of eight... I'm sure you can guess why that is... because he can't remember certain events, does that mean he isn't clearly affected by them? Thats ridiculous, and any psychologist worth his salt will tell you how drastically traumatic events can affect a child who is still developing, remember the still developing bit, the brain of a baby is nowhere near as developed as a brain of a teenager.

Whats annoying is you value your opinion higher than extensive research.

thegirlfriday, I don't have a problem with you not liking the look of foreskin, what I don't understand is why it matters what your son's cock looks like when some prefer the look and others don't, its mildly disturbing.

 

[EarnestImp]

anyone who thinks an infant will be traumitized by circumcision is a complete and hopeless stupid fuck....no one day old or one week old kid will remember...the traumatic thing for this kid is that he will have a moron for a mother...

Well, the medical evidence is that unanesthetised circ causes long term (permanent?) neural changes and increases future response to subsequent painful stimuli. This may not be 'traumantized' as you say, but it is not necessarily good to screw with an infant's nervous system in this way. That's just the medical facts. Anyone who denies this is, well, a stupid fuck, for being unable to parse factual evidence.

I won't comment on the moron mother bit.

 

[thegirlfriday11]

You realise it doesn't eliminate the risk, yes? You also realise that some women find the foreskin to be more attractive than without, I'd say there were equal numbers of people who like foreskin and those who don't...

Thats whats confusing me, why oh why are you bringing in your opinion of what looks good with regards to your son's cock?

1% risk of infection... it gets reduced a bit by circumcision... circumcision takes about two thirds of a penis' erogenous nerves out of it... any possible infection is easily treatable with antibiotics with a few very very rare exceptions... sorry, I don't think its something I'll ever understand, his toenail might become ingrown at somepoint in his life, causing much pain and discomfort, whilst its treatable with antibiotics, why not severe his toes now?

since i will be cleaning and diapering him for a year, i don't necessarily want to clean all the gross stuff that gets trapped under the skin, i don't want my kid going through teasing and psychological trauma by other kids, and i don't want him to go through rejection by girls because his penis looks gross

foreskin is just extra skin, it serves no purpose, it's dirty, and unattractive....so it's getting cut off

it's my child...too bad if you don't agree....go have your own kid if you want to make a decision of whether or not a child should be circumcised

 

[thegirlfriday11]

See, this isn't a rational opinion, because the risk of infection is small, and is not markedly different than the risk of complications from the procedure itself. And the procedure is on average more painful than any typical infection of a foreskin, except that the pain of circ is 100% certain to happen rather than a couple of percent chance (if that) of a foreskin infection.

The words "disgusting" and "unattractive" are a dead giveaway that the underlying motivations are not medical, they are personal and cultural and aesthetic.

Why am I hammering away at this point? Because, essentially, you are full of shit. You are trying to rationalize a personal preference with pseudo-medical arguments, because you cannot bring yourself to admit that you cannot psychologically handle normal male anatomy. Have whatever opinion you want, and do whatever you want to do, but just be honest about your motivations.

You are more comfortable with strapping your kid to a board and carving up his genitals than with the thought of him having normal male anatomy, which you have been trained to regard as weird. That is the whole story. Give up on the transparent rationalizations.

it is a rational opinion, he's my kid

you arguing obsessively over what i should do with MY child is what is irrational

 

[Gord]

i have and i think it's gross

i've taken care of uncut patients and have had to start catheters on them and clean them and it is disgusting

i'm sorry if the unattractive part bothers you, but that is exactly what i think

how old are you ...............you honestly sould like a 16 year old who is discussing some your boyfriends taste in clothes or something

 

[thegirlfriday11]

anyone who thinks an infant will be traumitized by circumcision is a complete and hopeless stupid fuck....

no one day old or one week old kid will remember...the traumatic thing for this kid is that he will have a moron for a mother...

no shit

i don't know any man who has been circumcised who has issues with it

in fact, the only men i know who have issues with it are uncut men

 

[Guest]

since i will be cleaning and diapering him for a year, i don't necessarily want to clean all the gross stuff that gets trapped under the skin,,,

Wow... good luck cleaning the gross stuff that comes out of his butt...

i don't want my kid going through teasing and psychological trauma by other kids, and i don't want him to go through rejection by girls because his penis looks gross

If it's any consolation, I don't know that he would get teased or be rejected by girls. I was born and raised in the U.S., and I've dated guys who are uncircumsized, and I've never had a problem with that. In fact, I didn't see anything abnormal or wierd about it. The thing is, if you instill in your son the idea that "foreskin is just extra skin, it serves no purpose, it's dirty, and unattractive" (your words) then he will DEFINITELY tease or show disgust towards any other boys he sees who are not circumsized (which is not very nice) and he will feel as though the way he was when he was born was somehow wrong, or that he was born defective (and that would make him feel bad, I'm sure). So while those are your own personal feelings about it, I'd caution you not to pass those feelings on to him (whether he gets circumsized or not) because otherwise he'll be more likely to tease other boys and feel that something was wrong with him when he was born.

...so it's getting cut off

it's my child...too bad if you don't agree....go have your own kid if you want to make a decision of whether or not a child should be circumcised