Christian values

[cantdog]

A society based on Christian values is what these people want. Not the values of Christ, of course; the values of Christians. This Christian children's camp is but another link in a horrific chain. Other links include crippling science in the schools with ID or Creationism, having us all pay to have young children indoctrinated in a depraved and irrational set of ideas, giving money to Oral Roberts because God will kill him if you and do not send him millions, and on and on.

We all know the list, and we have all decided, out of some misguided notion of respect, to give it a pass.

At least two of the Republicans going for the presidency this time are pimping for Jesus. That's because they know that the evangelical lobby is just waiting, money in hand, for someone they can call their own. Someone, as Pat Condell put it, who will really do something about the Rapture.

Please do not respond to this thread; I'll be okay in a few hours, probably. It's just caught me while I was tired.

 

[cloudy]

Huckabee scares the shit outta me.

 

[rgraham666]

I really should write that story where a 'Christian' gets to meet the deity he really works for.

 

[cantdog]

What about Romney? 180 years ago an angel came to New York with some gold tablets, and as a result, Romney must wear special underwear today. He knows in his heart that this fact very likely has already cost him the nomination. It is in the way of what he wants to accomplish, it hurts him at every turn, and yet he cannot shake it off. He was hypnotized into believing that tripe as a very young child, and cannot abandon that conditioning.

 

[cloudy]

What about Romney? 180 years ago an angel came to New York with some gold tablets, and as a result, Romney must wear special underwear today. He knows in his heart that this fact very likely has already cost him the nomination. It is in the way of what he wants to accomplish, it hurts him at every turn, and yet he cannot shake it off. He was hypnotized into believing that tripe as a very young child, and cannot abandon that conditioning.

He's a scary man, too, but I dunno...Huckabee gives me the shudders.

 

[cantdog]

He says freedom requires religion. The irony is sharpened to a razor edge, isn't it?

 

[cloudy]

The truly frightening thing is that they're both running, and actually getting some votes.

 

[cantdog]

Huckabee

This Huckabee thing could really take off, to our detriment. He's more scary because his Christianity is more mainstream, as far as that goes, anyway. I mean, he wears underpants like the rest of us. The Christian Nation he sketches out from the campaign stump is a jackbooted one, at odds with our history, at odds with our constitution, at odds with Christ himself, for that matter.

People voted for Bush, of all people, because they wanted a moral man in the white house. Maybe they were just referring to the appearance he gives that absolutely nobody would ever suck his dick, but maybe it was just a Christian thing.

So far it seems to be marginal, but not enough of it hits the news. The fluff about Obama and Clinton takes up all their time, when they aren't 'reporting' on the doings of some celebrity or another. We could have our own little Wahhabi thing grown to really troublesome proportions, one morning.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Huckleberry makes no secret of what he wants to do. He says he wants to amend the Constitution to make it more in line with the Bible. I don't know if he wants to outlaw eating pork and shellfish and bring back slavery, but he is for a lot of things in there. I don't honestly think he would have a chance of getting any such amendments through Congress and the state legislatures, but it would be scary to watch him try.

 

[rgraham666]

Quite possibly, since neither Congress or state legislatures are mentioned in the Bible, he'll outlaw them.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quite possibly, since neither Congress or state legislatures are mentioned in the Bible, he'll outlaw them.

That would also take a Constitutional amendment, but I think he would have even less chance of getting that passed. Can you imagine some member of Congress saying: "I'm going to vote for the amendment. I've been sucking on the public teat for twenty years now, and it's about time I got an honest job."

 

[Pure]

What about Romney? 180 years ago an angel came to New York with some gold tablets,

in fairness: what about Hillary, Obama, Huckabee, and Guiliani? 2000 years ago an angel came to nazareth, bearing golden, heavenly 'seed' and slipt it into a virgin, who gave birth to God the Son.

 

[neonlyte]

One might be tempted to say the general decision by governments to abandon Ecclesiastical Law more than a century ago as a means of upholding moral values in a Christian society opened the door Christian extremists/fundamentalists. In a nation of 'exiles' - I don't mean that unkindly but in the sense that migrants have generally abandoned their society of birth to create for themselves something better, which usually means persuading others to their point of view - one is almost bound to generate extremists since the Ecclesiastical moral majority no longer deals with renegades bowing to 'free speech', 'freedom of expression', 'equal rights'. It's the application of freedom and the acquisition of conscience, both good, both powerful enough to change the society you thought you had. Would Huckabee or Romney be any more radical than Ali Khamenei - Supreme Leader of Iran.

 

[Boxlicker101]

One might be tempted to say the general decision by governments to abandon Ecclesiastical Law more than a century ago as a means of upholding moral values in a Christian society opened the door Christian extremists/fundamentalists. In a nation of 'exiles' - I don't mean that unkindly but in the sense that migrants have generally abandoned their society of birth to create for themselves something better, which usually means persuading others to their point of view - one is almost bound to generate extremists since the Ecclesiastical moral majority no longer deals with renegades bowing to 'free speech', 'freedom of expression', 'equal rights'. It's the application of freedom and the acquisition of conscience, both good, both powerful enough to change the society you thought you had. Would Huckabee or Romney be any more radical than Ali Khamenei - Supreme Leader of Iran.

I think Huckleberry IS every bit as radical,and would be as bad as the Taliban, if he had a chance. I don't know about Romney. Either he is clever enough to keep quiet about it or he isn't all that much a fundie.

 

[Pure]

i think a few minor adjustments to the constitution, maybe just in "interpreting" it, could xianize the US. oh, and it would be done so as to recognize Jews and Judaism. we'd be "Judaeo Xian".


the first amendment deals with'establishing' a religion. just interpret that as *directly paying* a religious group. GWB already funds components of the activitiy of churches, e.g. providing for the poor; teaching sex education, etc.

'prohibiting free exercize' could be handled easily. you don't actually outlaw the muslim religious practices.

remember some individual states *at the time of the constitution* had religious tests for office holding and (de facto) for voting. so you only have to DEVOLVE power back to the states: that's one way.

MORE importantly, you don't need LAW to insure conformity. every presidential candidate is publicaaly affirming his/her religion. there is no LAW dictating that. Madalyn Murray OHair, the outspoken atheist, was murdered some years back, and the cheer that went up was palpable; and no one bothered to look for her killer for several years.

Congress is 99% Xian, if you include nominal ones, and leave aside Jews.

Chaplains already exist in the armed forces. There are outspoken Xian generals., iirc.

 

[Liar]

Quite possibly, since neither Congress or state legislatures are mentioned in the Bible, he'll outlaw them.

I don't think America is mentioned in the Bible. Someone ought to tell him that he's running for president in a country that is totally irrelevant to his belief.

 

[English Lady]

I don't think America is mentioned in the Bible. Someone ought to tell him that he's running for president in a country that is totally irrelevant to his belief.

I wasn't going to post at all, knowing nothing of American politics but just for a moment I have to threadjack and tell you, Liar that you never fail to make me smile.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I don't think America is mentioned in the Bible. Someone ought to tell him that he's running for president in a country that is totally irrelevant to his belief.

The entire Book of Mormon takes place in America.

In fact, it's not really a Book, it's more like a magazine.

 

[impressive]

It's sickening that the report doesn't even say if the girl is okay.

People are fucked up. Way. Fucked. Up.

Jesus is NOT happy about this. I guarantee it.

 

[xssve]

Joels Army, google it.

 

[xssve]

The entire Book of Mormon takes place in America.

In fact, it's not really a Book, it's more like a magazine.

Lol.

The whole thing is a big RPG, Mormonism is a mod.

 

[English Lady]

It's sickening that the report doesn't even say if the girl is okay.

People are fucked up. Way. Fucked. Up.

Jesus is NOT happy about this. I guarantee it.

Totally agreed.

 

[BlackShanglan]

the first amendment deals with'establishing' a religion. just interpret that as *directly paying* a religious group.

If we were to choose to accept both this phrasing and this interpretation of this phrasing, we could go all sorts of places with it. However, what the amendment actually says is, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

One of the first challenges in interpreting this is deciding whether "an establishment of religion" means "a religious group" (i.e., an establishment) or whether they were thinking of the act of establishment (i.e., shall make no law that itself establishes a religion / creates a state religion).

If, as Pure has, we take it to mean the latter, then we've still got the question of whether "directly paying" and "establishing" are the same thing. I'd say it depends on who else is getting paid and what they're getting paid for. If I give $50 to every church in America, or if I make a program that gives financial support to any church that supplies food to the indigent and fills out the appropriate paperwork, I don't think I'm establishing any particular religion. If, on the other hand, I send a few million to Oral Roberts as a speaker's fee for blessing the White House, I'd say I was tending to establish his religion in that above latter sense of the word.

And yes, I agree with Impressive. People who use the name of Christianity to justify their ugly and cruel natures are particularly disgusting to those of us who think Christ had other things in mind. Abusing children and masking bigotry and sexism aren't in Christ's spirit, and I wish I could give them all a good hard kick over the stile.

On the plus side, I was pleased to see Desmond Tutu arguing that the Anglican church worldwide needs to release its obsessive focus on sexuality and look at issues like poverty and justice as well. I think that the same can be said for nearly all Christian faiths, and I've been glad to hear more voices in America saying the same thing. There's a real danger that "Christian" is being reduced to nothing but "I oppose gay rights and abortion," and that's not a healthy thing for anyone. There's so much else that needs attention. When there are clear and unambiguous moral duties like aid to the poor and outlawing of torture on the table, it's ridiculous to spend this much energy on topics on which I think the fair-minded will allow there still to be good reason for debate over what is right.

 

[Boxlicker101]

The entire Book of Mormon takes place in America.

In fact, it's not really a Book, it's more like a magazine.

This is true, but Huckleberry and most Christians don't recognize that book as being part of the Bible. They claim, in effect, that Joe Smith and Brigham Young made the whole thing up. From what I have read and heard at LDS churches, they might be right.

 

[cantdog]

I'd like to agree with you, Shang. On the whole, unlike Christians, I believe that men and women begin life with no particular stain. I would rather trust a stranger than not. I encounter fine people almost everywhere; it's what I expect and it's who I find. I would greatly prefer to live life like this, rather than mistrust the motivations and expect the worst of everyone.

And I associate closely with a decent sort of church with decent people in it. There is no one in that particular Christian church who cut off his hand with a circular saw, for example, because he saw the mark of hell on its palm. These people are within call of sweet reason, most of them.

So I wish to think well of Christians, as of all people, and I know there can be good ones.

But those good and sane people, who have due regard for freedom and a wish to live in a sane society simply have not done enough. If PTL Club, 700 Club, Oral Roberts, Bob Jones University, and Focus on the Family can thrive without challenge, all the while painting what they do as the fundamentals of Christianity, then (a) those other Christians have let too much slide, or (b) the wackos really are fundamentally Christian, and that is why there is such leeway being afforded them.

I submit that either way, Those of us who stand to lose, to be imprisoned, go to the gibbet, whatever, whether (a) or (b)-- those of us who oppose this thing have to go ahead on the assumption that Christianity is essentially a malign glue holding together a fascist movement. If not, why do Christians allow it to be used for that?

We have to oppose it. Huckabee will not get enough going, this time around, maybe. Robertson got even less going, his time around; but Bush got quite a bit more. I think we have to recognize, with the immense media echo chamber already in place for these ideas acting as an incubator and a crucible, that this is not going away any time soon.

It's here for at least another generation, especially since regular non-fascist Christians aren't defending themselves. I would love to respect Christianity, but Christianity is making that harder and harder to sustain.