Chemtrails

[TurdFergeson]

TF, why wouldn't this be public knowledge then? Why keep it secret? Cui bono?

Who said it's a secret? It seems to be public knowledge, I just linked 15 sites.



I think every form of climate "fixing' should be used, including massive reforesting.

 

[Peregrinator]

Who said it's a secret? It seems to be public knowledge, I just linked 15 sites.



I think every form of climate "fixing' should be used, including massive reforesting.

I think if it were a government program it would have been announced with great fanfare, especially by Bush, who took a lot of hits for denying AGW existed and generally being an environmental asshole.

I agree with your last.

 

[mark_j]

Where did you come up with "sinister"?

Persistent chemtrails are actually a result of a fuel additive. Simple. Effective. Cheap. Notice how they persist for long time periods which is indicated by the "spreading". Short lived contrails behind high flying jets are not the same as persistent artificial cloud formations.


{SNIP}

The result is global dimming, or increase of albedo, which in all estimations would reduce the effects of anthropogenic climate change.

Therefore, we found a bandaid to fix the problem we created. Helping to stop global warming is not sinister, IMHO.

Yep gotta be cloud seeding or chem trailing right?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/B-17_Flying_Fortress.jpg

But I know you like your tinfoil hats and conspiracy theories so please carry on.

 

[TurdFergeson]

Yep gotta be cloud seeding or chem trailing right?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/B-17_Flying_Fortress.jpg

But I know you like your tinfoil hats and conspiracy theories so please carry on.

Nice photo...

Now show me one of the entire sky filled with those twisty prop vapor trails.

There should obviously BE photos like that of the entire sky filled with persistent contrails after massive daytime bombing runs in WWII?

Hundreds of planes would have been making them.

Yet none seem to exist...hundreds of high altitiude bombers going on missions ...and no sky filled contrails lasting for hours.

I want a photo like this:

http://photos.imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies/icons/chemtrails_over_Atlanta_dusk_122902.jpg

The WWII-era photo is indeed short-lived vapor trails, not the same as the photo I posted.

 

[TurdFergeson]

I think if it were a government program it would have been announced with great fanfare, especially by Bush, who took a lot of hits for denying AGW existed and generally being an environmental asshole.

I agree with your last.

Hmmm...but maybe not because of the political ramifications of such a program, basically admitting that ACC is real.

 

[mark_j]

Nice photo...

Now show me one of the entire sky filled with those twisty prop vapor trails.

There should obviously BE photos like that of the entire sky filled with persistent contrails after massive daytime bombing runs in WWII?

Hundreds of planes would have been making them.

Yet none seem to exist...hundreds of high altitiude bombers going on missions ...and no sky filled contrails lasting for hours.

I want a photo like this:

http://photos.imageevent.com/firesat/strangedaysstrangeskies/icons/chemtrails_over_Atlanta_dusk_122902.jpg

The WWII-era photo is indeed short-lived vapor trails, not the same as the photo I posted.

There are many others. But there is also a difference in contrail formation at 25000 feet and 35000 feet and the fact that the higher operation temp of jet engines at those altitudes produce a stronger contrail.. There is a wealth of technical information from NOAA on the atmospherics involved and several aviation tech journals explaining the formations of the trails. None of which seem to suggest a vast conspiracy. Indeed most of them agree that it is a product of high altitude flight under certain atmospheric conditions.

Indeed if it was chem trailing as you say wouldn't the contrails show up irrespective of the atmospheric conditions?

 

[TurdFergeson]

There are many others. But there is also a difference in contrail formation at 25000 feet and 35000 feet and the fact that the higher operation temp of jet engines at those altitudes produce a stronger contrail.. There is a wealth of technical information from NOAA on the atmospherics involved and several aviation tech journals explaining the formations of the trails. None of which seem to suggest a vast conspiracy. Indeed most of them agree that it is a product of high altitude flight under certain atmospheric conditions.

Indeed if it was chem trailing as you say wouldn't the contrails show up irrespective of the atmospheric conditions?

Who said it was a "vast conspiracy"? First you claimed it was "sinister", and now a vast conspiracy?

It seems to be right out in the open, for everyone to see. (Literally and figuratively).

But anyway, it just seems odd that there is also a wealth of research and money that has been poured into the idea of geoengineering, especially the atmosphere to increase albedo to mitigate anthropogenic climate change.

Here is a short list of some of the most important documents:



Jay Michaelson 1998 Geoengineering: A climate change Manhattan Project - Stanford Environmental Law Journal January - http://www.metatronics.net/lit/geo2.html#two

Edward Teller (director emeritus, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory), "The Planet Needs a Sunscreen" Wall Street Journal, October 17, 1997. - http://www.ncpa.org/pi/enviro/envpd/pdenv125.html

Climate Change 2001: Working Group III: Mitigation - by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change - http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg3/index.htm

Ramanathan, V. 1988. The greenhouse theory of climate change: A test by an inadvertent experiment. Science 243:293299 http://www.gfdl.gov/~gth/netscape/authors/ramaswamy.html

Schimel, D., D. Alves, I. Enting, M. Heimann, F. Joos, D. Raynaud, T., Wigley, M. Prather, R. Derwent, D. Ehhalt, P. Fraser, E. Sanheuza, X., Zhou, P. Jonas, R. Charlson, H. Rodhe, S., Sadasivan, K. P. Shine, Y. Fouquart, V. Ramaswamy, S. Solomon, J., Srinivasan, D. Albritton, I. Isaksen, M. Lal, and D. Wuebbles, 1996: Radiative forcing of climate change. In Climate Change 1995: The Science of Climate Change, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 69-131. http://www.gfdl.gov/~gth/netscape/authors/ramaswamy.html

Ramaswamy, V., R. J. Charlson, J. A. Coakley, J. L. Gras, Harshvardhan, G. Kukla, M. P. McCormick, D. Moller, E. Roeckner, L. L. Stowe, and J. Taylor, 1995: Group report: what are the observed and anticipated meteorological and climatic responses to aerosol forcing? In Aerosol Forcing of Climate, Vol. 20. John Wiley & Sons Ltd., 386-399.
http://www.gfdl.gov/~gth/netscape/authors/ramaswamy.html

Ramaswamy, V., 1988: Aerosol radiative forcing and model responses. In Aerosols and Climate, A. Deepak Publishing, 349-372
http://www.gfdl.gov/~gth/netscape/authors/ramaswamy.htm

Ramaswamy, V., and J. T. Kiehl. 1985. Sensitivities of the radiative forcing due to large loadings of smoke and dust aerosols. Journal of Geophysical Research 90(D3):5597*5613. http://www.gfdl.gov/~gth/netscape/authors/ramaswamy.html

Reck, R. A. 1984. Climatic Impact of Jet Engine Distribution of Alumina (Al2O3): Theoretical Evidence for Moderation of Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Effects. Report GMR-4740. Warren, Mich.: General Motors Research Laboratories, and paper presented to the American Geophysical Union, San Francisco, Calif., December 1984.

Hunten, D. M. 1975. Residence times of aerosols and gases in the stratosphere. Geophysical Research Letters 2(1):2627.

Mueller, A. C., and D. J. Kessler. 1985. The effects of particulates from solid rocket motors fired in space. Advances in Space Research 5(2):7786.




http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/geoengineering.jpg

Cite:

http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/smoking_gun.html

 

[Peregrinator]

Hmmm...but maybe not because of the political ramifications of such a program, basically admitting that ACC is real.

Possibly. But contrails have been seen since jets have been operating. It would be a far-seeing admin indeed that started a program like this in the fifties. And surely Carter or definitely Clinton/GORE would have been happy to take credit for it.

 

[_Misty_]

"Nothing to see here citizens! This is totally normal! Move along!"

http://harkiamsuperman.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/how-to-stop-chemtrails.jpg

Now that looks like Roman numerals. The number 12 as in 2012, hmmmmm?

 

[TurdFergeson]

Possibly. But contrails have been seen since jets have been operating. It would be a far-seeing admin indeed that started a program like this in the fifties. And surely Carter or definitely Clinton/GORE would have been happy to take credit for it.

They'd be happy to...but they couldn't. It would mean economic chaos as people had to wrestle with the idea of spraying the skies or completely changing the way society works.

Better to just let people daydream and after a couple years no one will barely notice anymore...and everything can just go on like always.

 

[TurdFergeson]

Now that looks like Roman numerals. The number 12 as in 2012, hmmmmm?

haha... I doubt if they are sky-writing...more probably a grid type pattern for maximum diffusion over the horizon.

 

[Peregrinator]

They'd be happy to...but they couldn't. It would mean economic chaos as people had to wrestle with the idea of spraying the skies or completely changing the way society works.

Better to just let people daydream and after a couple years no one will barely notice anymore...and everything can just go on like always.

You're sounding all "black helicopters" here. Occam, dude, Occam.

 

[mark_j]

Who said it was a "vast conspiracy"? First you claimed it was "sinister", and now a vast conspiracy?

It seems to be right out in the open, for everyone to see. (Literally and figuratively).

But anyway, it just seems odd that there is also a wealth of research and money that has been poured into the idea of geoengineering, especially the atmosphere to increase albedo to mitigate anthropogenic climate change.

Here is a short list of some of the most important documents:

Hmmmmm methinks you missed the humor in the "Holy vapor trails Batman" shtick but no matter..

Undoubtedly there has been a lot of high altitude research. We managed to get to the moon for pete's sake, so that just stands to reason that the experimentation and research on effects of high altitude atmospherics would have needed to be done. You had to fly the thing through the upper atmosphere to get there and back. More to the point we wouldn't have known if the shuttle would have worked if we hadn't determined the effects of flight through the upper atmosphere.

If it is indeed chem trails as you (and a whole host of other "theorists" suggest) then why is it that these only occur under the conditions that would cause extensive contrails to begin with?

 

[TurdFergeson]

You're sounding all "black helicopters" here. Occam, dude, Occam.

Black helos? No, pure economics.

An estimated 1 billion / year to spray the skies, or an astronomical amount to completely cut all carbon emissions.

And even if all carbon emissions could miraculously be cut tomorrow with a new energy technology, we might still have to spray to repair the damage done over the past 50-100 yrs.

The atmposphere has been damaged. The UV index never existed 50 years ago. Rates of sun-related health problems were very low. I suspect high altitude nuke tests along with CFCs and other things have screwed things up.

No wonder Teller studied this probem in detail.

 

[TurdFergeson]

If it is indeed chem trails as you (and a whole host of other "theorists" suggest) then why is it that these only occur under the conditions that would cause extensive contrails to begin with?

I don't think that's true...

Chemtrails can exist in dry air where contrails fizzle out after a few minutes and completely disappear:

http://www.willthomas.net/images/Chemtrail_Facts_Contrails.jpg

 

[mark_j]

I don't think that's true...

Chemtrails can exist in dry air where contrails fizzle out after a few minutes and completely disappear:

http://www.willthomas.net/images/Chemtrail_Facts_Contrails.jpg

Uh huh and cirrus cloud bands don't exist either.

 

[TurdFergeson]

Uh huh and cirrus cloud bands don't exist either.

My favorite is Lenticular clouds:

http://www.crystalinks.com/pinkufocloud.jpg

 

[Peregrinator]

Black helos? No, pure economics.

An estimated 1 billion / year to spray the skies, or an astronomical amount to completely cut all carbon emissions.

And even if all carbon emissions could miraculously be cut tomorrow with a new energy technology, we might still have to spray to repair the damage done over the past 50-100 yrs.

The atmposphere has been damaged. The UV index never existed 50 years ago. Rates of sun-related health problems were very low. I suspect high altitude nuke tests along with CFCs and other things have screwed things up.

No wonder Teller studied this probem in detail.

It would be cheaper to cut emissions immediately than to deal with all the economic fallout of global warming though.

Occam, dude, Occam.

 

[mark_j]

My favorite is Lenticular clouds:

http://www.crystalinks.com/pinkufocloud.jpg

All those photos and you knew someone had to actually capture an alien space ship one day..

 

[TurdFergeson]

It would be cheaper to cut emissions immediately than to deal with all the economic fallout of global warming though.

Occam, dude, Occam.

So, all those government researches specifically have studied ways to "sunscreen the Earth", but they didn't really mean to ever actually do it?

Talk about Occam...the simplest explanation is that they have been studying doing exactly that (sunscreening the Earth) , and then did it, at least experimentally.

 

[Peregrinator]

So, all those government researches specifically have studied ways to "sunscreen the Earth", but they didn't really mean to ever actually do it?

Talk about Occam...the simplest explanation is that they have been studying doing exactly that (sunscreening the Earth) , and then did it, at least experimentally.

No, and no. The government researches shit constantly that it may or may not need to do.

The simplest explanation is that water condenses in the wake of jet engines.

 

[TurdFergeson]

No, and no. The government researches shit constantly that it may or may not need to do.

The simplest explanation is that water condenses in the wake of jet engines.

And they often test such shit, sometimes on large scales, just to see if it works. Don't tell me they don't , or why else did they explode hydrogen bombs in the Troposphere? Not once, but several times. What good did that do?

If they would do that, why wouldn't they try the "sunscreen" method?

And I already explained that chemtrails often exist in the midst of other aircraft at similar alitudes in dry air which produce regular short lived water condensation trails.

Funny how one jet has a short , fast dissipating condensation trail, and the other has a super long- lasting and very long trail.

http://chemtrailtruth.org/images/difference.jpg

 

[Peregrinator]

And they often test such shit, sometimes on large scales, just to see if it works. Don't tell me they don't , or why else did they explode hydrogen bombs in the Troposphere? Not once, but several times. What good did that do?

If they would do that, why wouldn't they try the "sunscreen" method?

And I already explained that chemtrails often exist in the midst of other aircraft at similar alitudes in dry air which produce regular short lived water condensation trails.

Funny how one jet has a short , fast dissipating condensation trail, and the other has a super long- lasting and very long trail.

http://chemtrailtruth.org/images/difference.jpg

Heaven only knows why they tested more than one hydrogen bomb. I'm sure some bomb guy somewhere had a reason.

Check out the physics. I haven't studied the issue.

 

[TurdFergeson]

Heaven only knows why they tested more than one hydrogen bomb. I'm sure some bomb guy somewhere had a reason.

Check out the physics. I haven't studied the issue.

There were a few discoveries made:

"The Starfish bomb contained Cd-109 tracer which helped work out the seasonal mixing rate of polar and tropical air masses."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime


We have probably been in full "sunscreen mode" for almost a decade , now. And this is what accounts for the recent global cooling trend the climate change skeptics love to talk about, while ignoring any other variables such as anthropogenic climate change mitigation factors.

There have been no major volcanic eruptions, and atmospheric CO2 concentrations only continue to rise as more and more gets pumped out every year as population expands.

Obviously the experiment is a success, as predicted.

 

[TurdFergeson]

What is causing the global cooling?

Total solar irradiance has remained constant as far as it's usual cycles:

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/stp/SOLAR/image/irrad031202.gif

Must be increased Earth albedo:

http://www.friendsofscience.org/assets/documents/FOS%20Essay/earth_albedo_bbso.jpg