Chat about cheating . . .

I think a hundred years from now, having sex outside of a primary relationship won't necessarily be viewed as "Cheating." Indeed, it will be viewed as just a normal, healthy thing people do to maintain better physical and mental health. And one that actually helps to keep the primary relationship healthy and strong. In other words, it will be normative behavior and not exceptional.

Why not sooner? Because "fidelity" needs to be redefined and that will take generations to achieve. "No sex with others - ever!" needs to evolve into "Sex with someone else is fine, if..." and what follows will be sensible rules that minimize the risk it poses to the primary relationship. For example, having a one-night stand with someone you'll never see again will no longer be considered cheating. But forming attachments and conspiring to grow a relationship with someone other than your spouse will continue to be considered cheating.

If you think I'm crazy, think again... Think of how homosexuality, bi-sexuality, transgenderism were perceived 100 years ago. Thankfully, we've evolved and come to realize that these are normal, healthy people who are living their lives as authentically and happily as they can. I think the same will happen with non-monogamy.

I think that these dynamic will definitely evolve, although precisely how is anybody's guess. I personally prefer to have a relationship with my lovers - I find it leads to a more consistently enjoyable sexual experience than one-nighters - but that comes with an obligation to ensure that there are limitations to those connections. To oversimplify they are a bit like my platonic friends in that we do have a unique connection that is other than and outside of what I have with my husband, but I would never allow them to intrude on the relationship I have with my husband. That involves a myriad of ways I manage those interactions, but most importantly an honest view of my own feelings and that of my lovers' and my husband.

One of the things that I find about the evolution of sexual relations is how that has gone in the past 100 years or so. If we go back 100 years men were generally "allowed" to have sexual relations outside of marriage. I put that in quotes because it wasn't explicitly permitted per se (by law, the church or society), but it was tacitly accepted for men only. Once women started to get more rights and it became clear that we were increasingly unwilling to accept the traditional double standard, rather than extending the same flexibility to women, society (driven by men) decided to withdraw it from men (at least in terms of how it is judged).

Now as society has continued to liberalize and women's roles have continued to evolve, we are increasingly of the view that we don't need society's permission to be non-monogamous in our relationships or not enter into relationships at all. Along with that has come a cohort of men who seek to stand on moral/ethical grounds to adopt "burn the bitch" style rhetoric. What is interesting to me is that I feel as though many of those men are the ones who, if they lived 100 years ago, would readily step outside their marriage without nearly the moral/ethical constraints that they now seek to impose upon women. Their strident stance on the morality or ethics of these matters is really just cover for their own insecurities and even an unconscious recognition that absent the double standard their position in gender relations is greatly weakened.

So, why did women back in the day accept a cheating husband? Are we that much less jealous or was it simply because we had no choice? it was dominantly the latter in my view. Society was unkind to and unsupportive of single women, especially those with children. For a cheated on wife the alternative to sucking it up and accepting that reality was something approaching destitution (the whole premise that women want monogamy because we want a man to provide for us has always been rooted in the fact that society denied us any other practical means of providing for ourselves).

Those days are gone. But we are still in the early stages of a new view on relationships, especially among women. Historically, the compelled pairing of men and women was substantially driven by what men wanted (one can't say it was all because women wanted a man to provide for us while ignoring the fact that men conspired to deny us the means to provide for ourselves). For some men it was/is their best chance of having a mate at all.

As of now men are still clinging to and trying to enforce a traditional model. But they are slowly losing the ability to impose the double standard because women can refuse to engage on that basis. Guys are still trying to use shaming as their primary tool to compel compliance, but it is becoming less effective all the time. And women are increasingly opting to be on our own rather than put up with a misogynist partner. Those men that could count on the compelled pairing to hopefully one day find a partner are increasingly finding themselves single. It may take a generation or more, but eventually both genders (but especially men I think) will move beyond compelled pairing (and other behaviours). In that environment both genders (but again especially men I think) will alter their expectations because they have no choice - different than it was for women 100 years ago, but potentially with a similar result.

More women using our increased sexual latitude to shut out men who exhibit misogynist behaviour will alter that behaviour. Many of us will still opt for monogamy. But many will opt otherwise and while men won't be obliged to go along with it many will see it as workable, both because they lack alternative and because they have learned to respect our sexual prerogative in a way that they don't today. Women 100 years ago were compelled to accept their husband's sexual activity with other women. They may not have liked it, but they were able to see it with a more open mind than men of that time did or our current time do. Much of that is because they had no choice. Men will be steered in this direction, not because we compel them under duress, but because we do so by withdrawing from a traditional model that no longer suits us.
 
How do you know my wife didn't cheat? And my giving her permission to be with other men going forward wasn't my way of owning it rather than being a victim? Your comment toward @Ed_Sumner seems cruel.

The prospect of cheating does add a dimension to how these things come about. But I think that it is a transgression that is often artificially given universal importance.

Full disclosure: my cheating was the catalyst to a change in our lifestyle. It was a meaningless episode wherein I gave in to temptation, confessed immediately and owned it fully. Meaningless doesn't mean harmless. I just mean it didn't come out of some deeper dissatisfaction with my husband or attachment to another man. It was me being selfish.

What I mean by the transgression being given universal importance is that for some people it is the ultimate sin, can never be forgiven and/or is, at a minimum, evidence of an irredeemable character flaw (i.e. the cheater will always cheat again). But the reality is that none of us is perfect and all commit transgressions. And many who have committed relatively grievous transgressions have managed to truly redeem and reform themselves. Meanwhile, it is unreasonably onerous to see every transgression in an absolute way without any consideration of context.

So why is cheating the ultimate unforgivable transgression while others are forgivable or even acceptable. The fact is that it is not. Maybe for some people it is. But that is a personal perspective, not some kind of universal reality.

For example, fiduciary responsibility is a very high priority to me. You know those car commercials where some guy gets his wife a car and parks it in the driveway with a bow around it? Even if was not in an FLR I would absolutely lose my shit if my husband made that kind of financial decision without consulting with me. That would be a huge transgression. And if he was in the habit of doing that kind of thing or gambling unacceptable amounts of money that would be grounds for divorce even more so than sexual infidelity in a moment of weakness. But there are lots of people who would frame that in terms of generosity rather than financial irresponsibility and disrespect towards me as a partner entitled to be part of major financial decisions.

How those people feel about that doesn't change how I would feel about it. Neither of us is right. It is our own perspective.

I would certainly see my husband cheating as a transgression. But depending on the circumstances I wouldn't automatically see it as the worst thing ever or something we couldn't get past. And I do think that insecurity and a jealous nature will affect how serious of a transgression it is seen as. Likewise the way men have been taught to see female sexuality (including the double standard) plays into it.
 
I think that many, if not most, people's true persona is radically different from the ways in which we are perceived by others, our sexual personae in particular, but we are expected to adhere to a narrow identity, designated as being "normal" and we bring to our respective relationships, urges and cravings our partners are unable or unwilling to satisfy and consequently, we often seek out others with whom to fulfill these secret needs and carry out our forbidden desires. My friends and family would be shocked to meet the outrageous person I truly am!
 
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I think it is fantastic how this has worked out for you and your wife. It affirms that the most sexual organ that we have is our 'brain.' If we think sexy thoughts, it makes all the difference in the world.

As for your "one way" permission slip, I had to chuckle to myself. On the eve of my wife re-connecting with her ex high school boyfriend, she offered me the opportunity to find a 'fuck buddy,' for myself. I'm sure she was feeling some guilt over her upcoming sex date with her old B/F, so I flatly rejected her kind offer. Good thing, moments after she offered, she withdrew the permission for me to fuck another woman. Her only explanation was that she just couldn't stand to think of me being with another woman. The "double standard" is alive and well.
Same. My wife knows she can play with another guy if she wants too. The same doesn't go for me regarding women, she made that clear. As far as me with another guy I got a "don't ask, don't tell".
She's not interested in women at all, unfortunately.
 
Just putting this out there:

I’ve ignored that clown and I’ll ignore anyone who continues to feed it.
 
As of now men are still clinging to and trying to enforce a traditional model. But they are slowly losing the ability to impose the double standard because women can refuse to engage on that basis. Guys are still trying to use shaming as their primary tool to compel compliance, but it is becoming less effective all the time. And women are increasingly opting to be on our own rather than put up with a misogynist partner. Those men that could count on the compelled pairing to hopefully one day find a partner are increasingly finding themselves single. It may take a generation or more, but eventually both genders (but especially men I think) will move beyond compelled pairing (and other behaviours). In that environment both genders (but again especially men I think) will alter their expectations because they have no choice - different than it was for women 100 years ago, but potentially with a similar result.
Beautifully said...
 
So why is cheating the ultimate unforgivable transgression while others are forgivable or even acceptable. The fact is that it is not. Maybe for some people it is. But that is a personal perspective, not some kind of universal reality.
Agreed..

Seeing cheating as the ultimate marital offense is ridiculous. As I've shared before, my father NEVER cheated on my Mom, nor did he EVER hit her. But he made her feel unloved, unintelligent, and emotionally irrelevant to him. If he ever made her feel needed at all, it was only to raise 'his' kids, and keep 'his' house. While it is true that he was faithful, he was also an unloving and often cruel man. THAT was much worse than if he was a kind and loving husband who, on a handful of occassions, gave into temptation and slept with other women while traveling on business. My Mom sure as hell would have preferred that to what she ended up with..

If while we were teens, we found out that my Mom had a lover on the side we would have totally understood it and would have seen it as a forgivable coping mechanism. Sadly, she never did. My mom was a financial captive in a shitty marriage. No way I'd ever let my daughters, or nieces, follow such a path. I encourage them to earn as much (or more) than men and to be prepared to say "fuck you, I'm gone" if treated poorly by their husbands.
 
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I think it is fantastic how this has worked out for you and your wife. It affirms that the most sexual organ that we have is our 'brain.' If we think sexy thoughts, it makes all the difference in the world.
I place NO value on being able to claim from my deathbed that during our marriage, my wife never had sex with anyone but me. Big whoop.

Instead, I prefer being able to claim that my wife continued to enjoy physical intimacy with me, right up to the very end. And if that meant having to allow her to have occasional physical intimacy with others as well, I'll be quite at peace with it.

I know guys in their 60's who pontificate about the perfect fidelity of their 40 year marriage. Meanwhile, if they're still having sex at all, it's just a few times per year - ie., birthdays and anniversaries. Ugh.. No thanks!

I can't quite place my finger on why, but I think women may grow tired of sex sooner than men if confined to having it with just one person. So I’ve lifted that constraint and continue to enjoy tons of sex with my wife and expect to do so for years to come.
 
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As of now men are still clinging to and trying to enforce a traditional model. But they are slowly losing the ability to impose the double standard because women can refuse to engage on that basis. Guys are still trying to use shaming as their primary tool to compel compliance, but it is becoming less effective all the time. And women are increasingly opting to be on our own rather than put up with a misogynist partner. Those men that could count on the compelled pairing to hopefully one day find a partner are increasingly finding themselves single. It may take a generation or more, but eventually both genders (but especially men I think) will move beyond compelled pairing (and other behaviours). In that environment both genders (but again especially men I think) will alter their expectations because they have no choice - different than it was for women 100 years ago, but potentially with a similar result.

More women using our increased sexual latitude to shut out men who exhibit misogynist behaviour will alter that behaviour. Many of us will still opt for monogamy. But many will opt otherwise and while men won't be obliged to go along with it many will see it as workable, both because they lack alternative and because they have learned to respect our sexual prerogative in a way that they don't today. Women 100 years ago were compelled to accept their husband's sexual activity with other women. They may not have liked it, but they were able to see it with a more open mind than men of that time did or our current time do. Much of that is because they had no choice. Men will be steered in this direction, not because we compel them under duress, but because we do so by withdrawing from a traditional model that no longer suits us.

We already see some of this happening with advent of incel sub-culture. It is not surprising that some men have a harder time finding a partner when there is no longer compelled pairing. For whatever reason they don't offer an attractive package to women. Unfortunately, they are just in the early stages of coming to grips with their reality and are choosing to blame their frustrations on women. In many ways women are also still in the early stages of understanding modern dynamics and how best to manage the increased flexibility and power they have in gender/sexual dynamics. But women don't owe anything to men. And to those that would say some women are selfish or full of themselves I'd say well that may be true but women have been putting up with those characteristics in men for centuries.

The challenge these men face is that they want access to female partners on their terms rather than the female partners' terms. Rather than trying to understand the terms on which women might be willing to engage with them they are doubling down on being misogynist douche bags because they were raised with those attitudes. And I'd guess that in many cases it is precisely those attitudes that are a big part of what makes them unappealing to women.

It may take a few generations, but I'd like to think that attitudes of men and women will evolve and relationship patterns will evolve along with them.

Right now the consequences of a woman 'giving a guy a shot' can still be quite severe. Guys need to get to the place of understanding that a woman never owes them anything other than what she chooses to owe them. If she fucks you just be thankful and don't seek to infer anything she hasn't said or expect she will do it again or shame her if you don't like the way it works out. If she wants to be in a relationship, but not be monogamous just decide if you are ok with that or not then move on with your life.

A significant element for men will be to see themselves more realistically. We aren't all sexual dynamos. And it isn't the case that we can become one just by trying hard enough. Nor is it the case that some romanticized notion of true love will mean that it is incumbent upon a woman to accept a boring sex life. And even if you are a sexual dynamo, a sexually desirous woman might still want other sexual partners.

For some men it will come down to share your partner or be alone. If men were willing to share without imposing negative consequences on women, women might be much more willing to give them a shot. From that would grow new relationship formats that can work for everyone. And those new forms may mean either gender having multiple partners. It isn't all women in the lead.

By way of example, my wife dates other men. Even as a married woman with me as her primary relationship partner she is keenly aware of how other men's attitudes determine whether they are suitable partners or not. She sets the terms of their relationship and it is a politely 'take it or leave it.' The guys who seek to impose their own terms on the situation have nobody but themselves to blame when she shuts them down. She is a dynamo and frankly quite promiscuous. They can get laid as long as they play nice. She has always said that the biggest impediment to men getting access to sex is their own behaviour.
 
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You know what's funny about this is this guy thinks that women cheat because they aren't sexually satisfied (and thinks he's actually satisfying them) when the reality is that most women cheat because they aren't being fulfilled in the relationship in some other way. And this is exactly the type of man who inevitably gets cheated on. I guess ignorance really is bliss for many though.
Apparently you have a lot of experience in this area.
 
We already see some of this happening with advent of intel sub-culture. It is not surprising that some men have a harder time finding a partner when there is no longer compelled pairing. For whatever reason they don't offer an attractive package to women. Unfortunately, they are just in the early stages of coming to grips with their reality and are choosing to blame their frustrations on women. In many ways women are also still in the early stages of understanding modern dynamics and how best to manage the increased flexibility and power they have in gender/sexual dynamics. But women don't owe anything to men. And to those that would say some women are selfish or full of themselves I'd say well that may be true but women have been putting up with those characteristics in men for centuries.

The challenge these men face is that they want access to female partners on their terms rather than the female partners' terms. Rather than trying to understand the terms on which women might be willing to engage with them they are doubling down on being misogynist douche bags because they were raised with those attitudes. And I'd guess that in many cases it is precisely those attitudes that are a big part of what makes them unappealing to women.

It may take a few generations, but I'd like to think that attitudes of men and women will evolve and relationship patterns will evolve along with them.

Right now the consequences of a woman 'giving a guy a shot' can still be quite severe. Guys need to get to the place of understanding that a woman never owes them anything other than what she chooses to owe them. If she fucks you just be thankful and don't seek to infer anything she hasn't said or expect she will do it again or shame her if you don't like the way it works out. If she wants to be in a relationship, but not be monogamous just decide if you are ok with that or not then move on with your life.

A significant element for men will be to see themselves more realistically. We aren't all sexual dynamos. And it isn't the case that we can become one just by trying hard enough. Nor is it the case that some romanticized notion of true love will mean that it is incumbent upon a woman to accept a boring sex life. And even if you are a sexual dynamo, a sexually desirous woman might still want other sexual partners.

For some men it will come down to share your partner or be alone. If men were willing to share without imposing negative consequences on women, women might be much more willing to give them a shot. From that would grow new relationship formats that can work for everyone. And those new forms may mean either gender having multiple partners. It isn't all women in the lead.

By way of example, my wife dates other men. Even as a married woman with me as her primary relationship partner she is keenly aware of how other men's attitudes determine whether they are suitable partners or not. She sets the terms of their relationship and it is a politely 'take it or leave it.' The guys who seek to impose their own terms on the situation have nobody but themselves to blame when she shuts them down. She is a dynamo and frankly quite promiscuous. They can get laid as long as they play nice. She has always said that the biggest impediment to men getting access to sex is their own behaviour.

I think that the evolution away from monogamy as the default relationship model will also hinge on women being able to communicate our wants and desires as well. It isn't that we aren't able to do so now (although many are still figuring out what they want), but that we aren't free to do so without negative ramifications. To the extent that men often regard 'what women want' as some big mystery it is often because they aren't willing to hear it or paying attention when they do.

For instance, guys fully accept that men may want one type of woman for a sexual fling and someone altogether different for long-term commitment. Yet the premise that women might feel the same way is some kind of big mystery. I said I want a a sensitive, caring intelligent man with a sense of humour, but I also go off and fuck a bad boy now and then. That isn't inconsistent unless you are refusing to see women for individuals with a wide range of desires like any other human.

And that confusion it is reinforced by pop culture portrayals of women who choose the bad boy then end up hurt and wounded. Sure that happens, just as it happens with naive guys who choose the wild women. But lots of us choose the bad boy consciously, know what we are doing and enjoy it.

These days culture is still trying to convince women that it is ok for men to sow as much wild oats as they want before settling down, but if we as women do it we will be disqualified from that long-term relationship because of our 'body count.' More and more women are rejecting that. Some guys will feel that way so we will move on to someone more mature.

But I do think that to the extent lots of women have allowed themselves to get locked into the good girl narrative and forego sexual exploration, cheating later in life is a fairly natural outcome. Not necessarily inevitable or justifiable, but it is natural. Counter to what society seems to preach to us I have found that it is the women who allowed themselves to be sexually repressed that are more likely to feel compelled to break free later in life much more so than the women who already explored themselves.
 
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I think I am like lots of guys on here whose wife cheated. At first I was hurt, but over time it came to be a source of titillation. I might not have gotten over it if she hadn't been forthright about it followed by a period apart. But once I got past my initial reaction I started to see her as the sexually desirous woman that she is. Sure she is a 'dirty girl'. And she is mine. I'd far rather be with an exciting fun sexual woman who is not exclusive than be exclusive with a woman whose sexual interest has faded while we settle into a boring routine. Are those the only two options? No of course not. But it is difficult to keep the spark alive in a long established monogamous relationship. Her being non-monogamous was initially a small sacrifice to hold on to an exciting sexual woman. Now it is titillating to the point that it is a bonus not a sacrifice.

Do I think cheating is ok? No it is a betrayal. But I am past the point of seeing cheating as some absolute unforgivable sin as opposed to a mistake. It is easier to break trust than to rebuild it, but it isn't impossible.
 
I think I am like lots of guys on here whose wife cheated. At first I was hurt, but over time it came to be a source of titillation. I might not have gotten over it if she hadn't been forthright about it followed by a period apart. But once I got past my initial reaction I started to see her as the sexually desirous woman that she is. Sure she is a 'dirty girl'. And she is mine. I'd far rather be with an exciting fun sexual woman who is not exclusive than be exclusive with a woman whose sexual interest has faded while we settle into a boring routine. Are those the only two options? No of course not. But it is difficult to keep the spark alive in a long established monogamous relationship. Her being non-monogamous was initially a small sacrifice to hold on to an exciting sexual woman. Now it is titillating to the point that it is a bonus not a sacrifice.

Do I think cheating is ok? No it is a betrayal. But I am past the point of seeing cheating as some absolute unforgivable sin as opposed to a mistake. It is easier to break trust than to rebuild it, but it isn't impossible.
Well written and honestly expressed. Good for you and your wife.
 
I think I am like lots of guys on here whose wife cheated. At first I was hurt, but over time it came to be a source of titillation. I might not have gotten over it if she hadn't been forthright about it followed by a period apart. But once I got past my initial reaction I started to see her as the sexually desirous woman that she is. Sure she is a 'dirty girl'. And she is mine. I'd far rather be with an exciting fun sexual woman who is not exclusive than be exclusive with a woman whose sexual interest has faded while we settle into a boring routine. Are those the only two options? No of course not. But it is difficult to keep the spark alive in a long established monogamous relationship. Her being non-monogamous was initially a small sacrifice to hold on to an exciting sexual woman. Now it is titillating to the point that it is a bonus not a sacrifice.

Do I think cheating is ok? No it is a betrayal. But I am past the point of seeing cheating as some absolute unforgivable sin as opposed to a mistake. It is easier to break trust than to rebuild it, but it isn't impossible.
This right here. 💯
 
I found out my wife was cheating when I call friends house where she was . His wife answered ,I asked for Lynn and she said she is kind of busy, She is up stairs with Steve and they are showering, I will have her call you back..
 
I found out my wife was cheating when I call friends house where she was . His wife answered ,I asked for Lynn and she said she is kind of busy, She is up stairs with Steve and they are showering, I will have her call you back..
what did you say to her she she called back?
 
I called back 40 min later ,,, she had left returning home.. I talked to Steve and he said it just happened when Lynn fell playing tennis with him .. Asked him if he fuck her .. "she will tell you
 
I called back 40 min later ,,, she had left returning home.. I talked to Steve and he said it just happened when Lynn fell playing tennis with him .. Asked him if he fuck her .. "she will tell you
Did he? Did she?
 
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