Challenges in writing longer works

[Gamblnluck]

also think maintaining each character's 'authentic voice' over a longer work can be difficult.

It definitely is. When I started writing each of my longer pieces, as it grew, I'd start at the beginning each time for a read through to keep my mindset. That took as much time as the writing. Then after it grew past four or five chapters, I'd skim the previous chapter if it had been more than a day between writing sessions. Now, virtually every session starts at the beginning of that chapter. I find myself doing rewrites.
I have a series of notes of things I want to include at the bottom of the chapter. Sometimes half paragraphs, sometimes short sentences to explain the idea.

 

[Gamblnluck]

I’m more worried about feedback that says, “Why did X do Y, wouldn’t Z have been much easier and quicker?”

Often because that is the way you saw it happen. People are not going to do things easier. The main thing is to keep a character sort of consistent.

I have a few characters that I kind of blend into a single personality. They were roommates at one time. One had some major adventures that affected her personality and created a drawn out story arc. But later in the story, the three might be sitting around a table with others and each pipe up with comments almost as if the three (again roommates) share a like mind. They might tease one another. But those things add to the story in my opinion.
Might be why my stories go so long.

I'd only be worried about those possible comments if your character's actions are illogical or create a plot hole.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

I’m more worried about feedback that says, “Why did X do Y, wouldn’t Z have been much easier and quicker?”

Characters are not required to be perfect. X just didn't think of it.

In my longer in-progress novel, the heroine is a capable but inexperienced scientist. The story is very largely about how she is affected by several mistakes she makes, and what she learns.

--Annie

 

[Rob_Royale]

For me it's coming up with a plot deep and intricate enough to be stretched further than 30k words. I just don't have that kind of imagination.

 

[EmilyMiller]

For me it's coming up with a plot deep and intricate enough to be stretched further than 30k words. I just don't have that kind of imagination.

I guess I do. But we’ll see what other people think in time .

 

[EmilyMiller]

Characters are not required to be perfect. X just didn't think of it.

In my longer in-progress novel, the heroine is a capable but inexperienced scientist. The story is very largely about how she is affected by several mistakes she makes, and what she learns.

--Annie

I’m being too generic. It’s not the most major plot point, but while the FMC is on the run, two state troopers are killed by a minor character, who is defending a more major character. This is all in Part III. The FMC is worried that she will be implicated, and she checks police and news sites for any info about the killings. But - by the time I get to Part V - she seems to have totally forgotten about it.

It’s going back and filling in that type of gap that I mean. There either needs to be a reason why she is no longer concerned, or I need to refer to her ongoing concern in Part V.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I write mostly longer tales. I have 11 published here in N/N.

I story board as I go in an Excel spreadsheet to keep characters, time frames, settings, and other details straight.

For the challenge that you are facing, you might want to consider a different literary technique being implemented that gives you some flexibility with the characters and their interactions at different points in the story.

 

[ThatNewGuy]

What aspects of longer works do you find challenging?

I often write with a head of steam as you say. But I’ve been incrementally revising as I go, because the idea of a major edit at the end is daunting.

This is going to sound glib, but the most challenging aspect of longer works for me has been finishing them.

Like you, I revise shorter stuff incrementally as I go. If I'm not happy with a scene, I tinker with it until I am. Sometimes that just involves some small tweaks to the dialogue. Sometimes it involves a more significant rewrite. Sometimes it means stepping away for a week or more until I can "find" the scene or the character and better understand how it fits into the larger whole (and sometimes it's not the scene that's the problem; it's the larger whole that needs to change to accommodate the scene).

Once I've worked through whatever the issue is, I'm excited. My motivation is restored and I'm ready to press on. I feel a sense of certainty that I'm heading in the right direction again. By the time I finish a first draft of a shorter work, I'm usually pretty happy with it.

I've found that incremental process to be much harder to apply to a novel. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's the butterfly effect. When I overhaul a scene in a shorter work (say, less than 20,000 words), I can still hold everything in my mind's eye and understand how everything will fit together. But if I overhaul a scene in a novel, it can have far-reaching implications for the rest of the story, not all of which I can "see."

Writing blind like that makes me nervous. Am I headed in the right direction? What if the direction I've chosen is a misstep? I don't feel the certainty that I normally do when I'm working on a shorter piece. I start to worry that I'm going to waste a bunch of time and effort finishing a novel that absolutely sucks. And <poof!>, there goes my motivation.

I've tried to combat this by embracing the idea of the shitty first draft: the only thing a first draft needs to do to be successful is exist. That's its only purpose. Once it does, then you can go back and find your real story. Fix what needs to be fixed. Rewrite what needs to be rewritten.

It all sounds great in theory. In practice, it has been very difficult for me to apply. I'm not used to writing that way. I'm used to being pretty happy with what I've written so far. If I'm writing something that feels like it's shitty, my instinct is to be like, "yeah, it's shitty because it's shitty, so how about we abandon it and work on something that isn't shitty."

Michael Swanwick says, "When you're writing, your first responsibility to your craft is to learn to turn off that internal critic, that little Stalin of the soul for the duration. You can turn it back on when you're going over the finished story to see what changes need to be made, if you like. But keep its grubby little hands off the actual writing."

I think that's great advice. I've given it to other writers. But fuck me if I can get myself to listen to it.

All that to say, congrats on writing 80,000 words. That's a big success in its own right. Now keep going.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I've found that incremental process to be much harder to apply to a novel. I'm not sure why. Maybe it's the butterfly effect. When I overhaul a scene in a shorter work (say, less than 20,000 words), I can still hold everything in my mind's eye and understand how everything will fit together. But if I overhaul a scene in a novel, it can have far-reaching implications for the rest of the story, not all of which I can "see."

I have found I can keep about 30,000 words in my head. But when it gets more than that, it’s tricky. I rely on rereading the whole thing periodically.

Of teh 80,000 words, I’d say 70,000 has been tweaked, it’s mostly Parts V and VI where I have both more writing and more tweaking of what I write. Plus the occasional systemic retcon when needed.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I’m being too generic. It’s not the most major plot point, but while the FMC is on the run, two state troopers are killed by a minor character, who is defending a more major character. This is all in Part III. The FMC is worried that she will be implicated, and she checks police and news sites for any info about the killings. But - by the time I get to Part V - she seems to have totally forgotten about it.

It’s going back and filling in that type of gap that I mean. There either needs to be a reason why she is no longer concerned, or I need to refer to her ongoing concern in Part V.

I'm always concerned with stuff like this. I keep extensive plot notes. Of course, I'm a heavy plotter and I work mostly with outlines and rarely write the story out in chronological order. I jump all around from the beginning to the end to the middle, wherever it suits me best. This doesn't work for everyone. The pantsers generally don't work well with outlines. That's fine. Just know that what you need to do is edit. Once you get to the end of your draft, read back and edit and read back and edit. Anything that is not adding up or otherwise doesn't feel right, edit and fix it. So long as you edit adequately, you should be fine - theoretically speaking.

Bottom line, if a story reads loose and meandering I can tell that it was pantsed. If a story reads tight and cohesive, I cannot tell if it was plotted, or pantsed and properly edited. ; )

 

[Cagivagurl]

Inevitably in a longer work you need connective passages, lows between the highs. I try to find something of interest to add to those bits. Humor, or a new element to a character, or setting up a later pay off. But I agree these sections can be harder to write.

Yes, it's the often the case. You get an interesting idea, and a story develops. That is easier to write, but then you have to build some tension, a little drama, and comedy if you can... Something to glue everything together. The thing for me... I was used to writing sex scenes... For longer stories, you have to stretch... Reach higher... You can't hold the readers intention with pure sex... Not for 300 pages... There has to be more.

You have to develop as a writer, or get off the bus... Gro, or die...

Cagivagurl

 

[Gamblnluck]

For me it's coming up with a plot deep and intricate enough to be stretched further than 30k words. I just don't have that kind of imagination.

Actually, it is quite easy. Just start telling the story. Then see where it leads you. You begin with any story and ask yourself 'what does the guy do next?' If you say nothing, then you close it out as best you can.

 

[Gamblnluck]

This is going to sound glib, but the most challenging aspect of longer works for me has been finishing them.

Yep. I had the ending for Slave Camp written long before it appeared. I had the last line written. I used it a few times in the story deliberately. it just took a while to get to the point the story was ready to end. (In MY mind)

 

[EmilyMiller]

You have to develop as a writer, or get off the bus... Gro, or die...

I’m finding that out

 

[Cagivagurl]

I’m finding that out

You have developed continually...
I see it in your storytelling...

 

[EmilyMiller]

You have developed continually...
I see it in your storytelling...

You are so kind

 

[Britva415]

One thing I struggle with is, the protagonist was very fixated on X in Part II, but the story has moved on by Part IV, and now they don’t seem to care that much about X.

I find myself constantly having to either write a graceful off ramp for X, or adding bits to say they still care about X, as X will be a big deal again in Part VI.

Are protagonist and X both in part V and interacting with each other?

I don't think X needs a graceful off ramp. If they aren't otherwise appearing in part V anyway, then just let the reader read part V and not think about X until part VI.

If X is going to be a big deal in a different way in part VI, even then I don't think it's necessary to use part V to narrate what changed. I say this without knowing the story, but I think it would be fine to just have that entire relationship offscreen, if protagonist doesn't have any reason to conduct that relationship in part V.

Or maybe part III was the time and place to give X the offramp. What changed and when? That would have been the time and place to show why protagonist has let go of X.

 

[Britva415]

it seems to me your troubles come from insufficient planning

Either that or

This is a detail which could be addressed during revision. Like, make a note of it and keep writing the novel. This is just a first draft.

Interrupting the writing to address a detail like this isn't even planning, the way I see it. Noting a punch-list of things to come back to is a level of planning, but not because the initial plan was inadequate. Revision is just part of the process.

 

[Britva415]

90,00 words is not novel length

NaNoWriMo wants a word

 

[Britva415]

We don't have bookmarks here

Bookmarks are a feature of web browsers. This could trip up someone who's reading in the Lit mobile app, which isn't (exactly) a browser and which possibly has eliminated that feature (I don't use it so I don't even know. Maybe it does preserve the bookmark feature for all I know) but it shouldn't trip up someone using an actual web browser - which is most of us, since the Lit app doesn't run on most devices.

In one sense, this is a convenience of Lit's paging presentation, though there are plenty of people who would rather read a whole story in one long document or page.

 

[Britva415]

100,000 words is the minimum word count for trad publishing to be considered a novel.

That has a lot more to do with the economics of publishing than it has to do with the definition of a novel.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Are protagonist and X both in part V and interacting with each other?

I don't think X needs a graceful off ramp. If they aren't otherwise appearing in part V anyway, then just let the reader read part V and not think about X until part VI.

If X is going to be a big deal in a different way in part VI, even then I don't think it's necessary to use part V to narrate what changed. I say this without knowing the story, but I think it would be fine to just have that entire relationship offscreen, if protagonist doesn't have any reason to conduct that relationship in part V.

Or maybe part III was the time and place to give X the offramp. What changed and when? That would have been the time and place to show why protagonist has let go of X.

This is a specific example:

Post in thread 'Challenges in writing longer works'
https://forum.literotica.com/threads/challenges-in-writing-longer-works.1638688/post-101364243

 

[GrantBricksly]

I’m being too generic. It’s not the most major plot point, but while the FMC is on the run, two state troopers are killed by a minor character, who is defending a more major character. This is all in Part III. The FMC is worried that she will be implicated, and she checks police and news sites for any info about the killings. But - by the time I get to Part V - she seems to have totally forgotten about it.

It’s going back and filling in that type of gap that I mean. There either needs to be a reason why she is no longer concerned, or I need to refer to her ongoing concern in Part V.

So..from what I'm gathering, I think I understand the problem, at least what it is from MY perspective.

When I write, short or long stories (I'm currently working on a long one, which I expect to top 400k, and that's just book 1 of at least 2) I usually start out with a general idea of the plot. I have a beginning, and an end. I have some plans on how to get to the end. Typically some major plot points and such.

But the one thing I NEVER do, is write out of order. I don't write the end first. I have plans for it. I might even write down a few notes about it. But nothing else.

Why? Because the moment I write it down, it becomes harder to let it go. My mind will take that ending I've written, and try to force the characters towards it.

Instead... I start at the beginning. And I let my characters lead. Let them tell me where the story needs to go.

Do I still try to lead them toward my ending? Of course...but without it written, it's easier for them to steer me away from it. I won't feel like I'm throwing away time and energy I spent writing words, that are now useless.

As for what I struggle with... Mostly I struggle with having the time/motivation to keep writing. (Not at the moment, I've been on a huge roll lately..though my time has been limited)

And sometimes I second guess my choices..wondering if something I've done in the story was the right choice, or a good choice...or if the reader will pick up on it..or get it..etc...

 

[EmilyMiller]

So..from what I'm gathering, I think I understand the problem, at least what it is from MY perspective.

When I write, short or long stories (I'm currently working on a long one, which I expect to top 400k, and that's just book 1 of at least 2) I usually start out with a general idea of the plot. I have a beginning, and an end. I have some plans on how to get to the end. Typically some major plot points and such.

But the one thing I NEVER do, is write out of order. I don't write the end first. I have plans for it. I might even write down a few notes about it. But nothing else.

Why? Because the moment I write it down, it becomes harder to let it go. My mind will take that ending I've written, and try to force the characters towards it.

Instead... I start at the beginning. And I let my characters lead. Let them tell me where the story needs to go.

Do I still try to lead them toward my ending? Of course...but without it written, it's easier for them to steer me away from it. I won't feel like I'm throwing away time and energy I spent writing words, that are now useless.

As for what I struggle with... Mostly I struggle with having the time/motivation to keep writing. (Not at the moment, I've been on a huge roll lately..though my time has been limited)

And sometimes I second guess my choices..wondering if something I've done in the story was the right choice, or a good choice...or if the reader will pick up on it..or get it..etc...

I don’t think that’s the problem I described. It sounds like your problem. I don’t think I share it.

 

[GrantBricksly]

I don’t think that’s the problem I described. It sounds like your problem. I don’t think I share it.

fair enough...

but it does sound like you have something that happened earlier in the story, and then is less important later...and you are trying to deal with that...and from your own admission, you wrote the ending first...

Again, I was just guessing from what I was told, and from my point of view...and giving advice from their...didn't mean to offend if I did..