Chain Story Discussion

[KillerMuffin]

Let's just see if she agrees before we start pinning on the chest cheese. Er, medals awards and errata.

The chain is still open!
Parameters are still open for discussion.

This is what we've got:


Generalissima Judo (if she agrees).
Judo's medallion.
Minimum 2,000 words, no maximum.
No one gets the same time frame.
There is a spread of time between times.
Everyone writes in past tense.
Theme - The medallion teaches a character something.
Title is "Talisman - Protagonist's Full Name"


To be decided on:


"Sexually enlightened." Most don't seem to care, some are for it, some are against it. I don't care because my protagonist is sexually jaded, so that's enlightened enough.

POV - Second person is prohibited. Some have expressed a preference that everyone write in third person. Some have expressed a preference that everyone write in whatever POV they want.

Tone - I say we drop it as part of the discussion.


Muffie's thoughts:


POV only this time. I think we should all use third person and here's why. Third person is better for developing secondary characters and the medallion is a character that must be developed if we're going to make this chain more interesting. If you recall the Lord of the Rings, Frodo's Ring was a character. It's extremely difficult to develop any character beyond "I" in first person and most people just can't do it well. It's easy to do it in third person because a certain omniscience is allowable.

Developing a secondary character, to my mind, means having a character that's distinct from the protagonist and that the reader can "see" those characters in ways that the protagonist doesn't.

 

[Whispersecret]

Risia, I apologize for patronizing you. It's that stubborn streak in me that wants to be right and to make my point understood. I think the "right" part of our discussion will never be resolved. We disagree, which is perfectly fine. Making my point understood, well, I guess I did that too many times and didn't realize you'd understood it. Let's move on.

Obviously I'm unenlightened.

Karmadog has a point. This isn't really a chain story, which is both good and bad. As mentioned before, continuous stories are difficult to maintain. Still, I wonder if the fact that it's not a true chain story really matters. Perhaps collaborative story would be a better term for the "genre." I'm sure this idea of a unifying object rather than character(s) is new for Literotica.

Perhaps Muff's idea of the talisman being a sort of sentient character is a good solution for this. If everyone can all manage to keep the talisman consistent, it could work. The talisman could have memories of how it affected past owners, which would tie the stories together. It could use that knowledge to affect its future machinations. Or not. Up to the group to decide.

 

[GoddessKaren]

As far as the talisman being sentient, I think a better way of expressing it is that the talisman has an overriding goal and has limited ability to affect those who touch it/use it - if you are going to compare it to Tolkien's ring, this is a more apt description, I think.

If you want it to be sentient, that is fine too, but I think this implies much more of an awareness than that embodied in Tolkien's ring.

Do you want the talisman to be able to speak through its bearer? And do you want it to express its memories through this same person? Or is the talisman going to have a voice of its own and tell the reader about its own memories and experiences?

There is a fantasy series by Raymond Feist in which there are two magic stones. These stones are characters in their own right, and speak through their bearers. But in the stories there is a single goal of the stone, which is to defeat the other stone. This makes the actions of the stone consistent because it has a single goal. With an amorphous goal like "teaching its bearer" I think having an item like this will be much more difficult to express, let alone keep somewhat consistent.

Personally, I would rather have a semi-sentient object that has been imbued with an overriding goal, but that has no memories per se. But, that's just my opinion.

karen

 

[Whispersecret]

I agree with Karen. Sentient was too strong a word. My error.

Oh, and the "Obviously, I'm unenlightened" comment before was in regard to the whole sexual organ control topic, not as a snappy sarcastic ending to what I said to Risia. And I meant it truly. I really AM unenlightened as to that aspect.

 

[jon.hayworth]

Regarding POV

This is not an objection to using the Third Person - it is just to point out a consequence of adopting this POV.

KM said:-
"POV only this time. I think we should all use third person and here's why. Third person is better for developing secondary characters and the medallion is a character that must be developed if we're going to make this chain more interesting. If you recall the Lord of the Rings, Frodo's Ring was a character. It's extremely difficult to develop any character beyond "I" in first person and most people just can't do it well. It's easy to do it in third person because a certain omniscience is allowable. "

If we use the third person, surely the "omniscient" nature of this POV dictates that we start with the Talisman having a detailed "back story" to which we all conform. Whereas in the first person the narrator has no knowledge of the Talisman, it's powers or story of its creation beyond what becomes manifest whilst the Talisman is in the narrator's possession.

jon

 

[KillerMuffin]

Third person doesn't have to dictate anything. In third person you can sit in the main character's head just as if you were using "I." Omniscience only refers to the ability to know what other characters are thinking and impart pieces of that to the reader and in it's ability to know things the primary character doesn't know and impart pieces of that to the reader.

The primary difference is that in third person the narrator can take other human characters POV thoughts, or no character POV at all, and impart information to the reader that simply can't be done in first person.

An example off the cuff:

************

I fingered the medallion and watched her thread her way through the bus toward me. Just as I had every day for the last five years. Someday, I knew I would speak to her, just to get to know her. I sank into my seat and knew that today wouldn't be the day. Like always, I was a coward.

She faltered by my seat and stopped. My mouth gaped like a prize bass when she smiled at me. I didn't know what to think, what to say. Something inside prodded me to say, "Hello."

"Hello." Her voice was smooth honey that touched off every ductless gland that I owned. Even more surprising, she sat.

"This is your stop," I protested like an idiot.

"I wanted to get to know you better."

With the way my life was heading, I wondered how I could get so damned lucky.

******

He fingered the medallion and watched her thread her way through the bus toward him. Just as he had every day for the last five years. Someday, he knew he would speak to her, just to get to know her. He sank into his seat and knew that today wouldn't be the day. Like always, he was a coward.

Something caught her eye as she passed the faceless passengers on the bus. A flash of ivory winked at her and captured her fancy. She faltered, then stopped. Her eyes landed on a small ivory charm hanging from a gold chain on one of the anonymous men she shared the bus with every day. She lifted her gaze to his face and smiled a little. He looked rather endearing with his mouth open like that. Odd how she never noticed him before. Maybe not, she'd promised herself that she would swear off of men.

"Hello," he said. He had a nice voice, like somone on those automated telephone systems that put you on hold forever. She flashed him a smile and was about to move on-- dinner beckoned-- when his medallion seemed to grin at her.

"Hello," she replied and, contrary to her growling stomach and disinterest in him, she sat down next to him.

"But this is your stop!"

"I wanted to get to know you better." She felt a rush like warm ivory and, suddenly, it didn't seem so strange to accost perfect strangers on a bus when she'd sworn off men.

He didn't understand it. It was completely beyond reason. With the way his life was heading, how could he get so dammed lucky?

*************

Can you see what I mean by secondary character development, and, more importantly, developing the talisman distinctly from the protagonist? Neither person knew that the talisman might have anything to do with them actually speaking to each other, but the reader did. You just can't do that very easily in first person.

 

[GoddessKaren]

Ahhhh KM, off the cuff indeed! You are fabulous as always! Thank you for this very clear illustration of first vs third person POV.

karen

 

[jon.hayworth]

KM,

I was not arguing against which would be the best POV. The point I was trying to make was, that there may be points when the current holder of the medallion is asked about it's provenance.

I will not attempt to continue your scenario, but if at some point she was to ask him where he got the medallion. If his answer, (following the story line of that time segment), was to the effect it had come from someone who had travelled in Peru he then added the erenous statement that it was a sacred Inca totem, that would be fine. However the omniescent narrator knows it is an erranous statement and would surely remind the reader it was an error.

I am not talking about a full-blown recap of it's history, but there would be some sort of reminder. - Maybe in the form of the spirit of the medallion's thoughts.

jon

 

[KillerMuffin]

My apologies. As always, I completely misunderstood. I'm sorry, Jon.

 

[jon.hayworth]

KM Accepted. I don't want to rock the boat just make this wagon roll!!! - I am sure we are going to have a great chain story. -

A thought just struck me - I would not like to be in JUDO'S shoes on monday with all these posts to wade through.

jon

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Well from what KillerMuffin just exampled up there my story won't work for this

Sorry

but I can only right in the -"I"- form, I can't do the -"he, she, they"- or the -"you"- forms.

Sorry bout that, guess I will duck out for the continuity sake of the story.

thanks for the invite.

 

[karmadog]

I can't agree

Based on what has been said about the medallion, characters CANNOT really know what it is about. Telling the story in third person does not necessitate even referevcing its past. Third person does not mean that the narrator is omniscient in any way. Third person only requires that the narrator is not a character.

Y'all are having a real strange discussion here.

Wait. Have I misunderstood what you are saying? Are you saying that to be a part of the story, the narrator must know the talisman's past? If that is the case, I want none of it. That would be no fun at all. I mean, of course, whoever's writing must know, but that is not the same thing.

Somebody please clarify this.

 

[jon.hayworth]

KarmaDog,

I am trying to get to grips with your post. So I will clarify my thoughts as an individual. Therefore nothing I say should be taken as authorative!

I did not say that everyone would automatically be refering to the medallion's past in their contribution. What I was saying was that if the history arose in the story line, it appeared to me for the sake of consistency everyone should know and subscribe to the same version.

My understanding is that we are creating a single story created by a number of authors, not about creating a collection of short stories on a common theme.

A single story requires a degree of consistency in terms of POV, Tense, and the backstory. - A valuable exercise in disciplined writing

A collection of short stories on a common theme, gives each author freedom. - A celebration of individuality.

Well writing this has helped me clarify things, even if it has not helped anyone else.

jon

 

[Guest]

Gotcha. Not a problem.
k-dog

 

[RisiaSkye]

Whisper & KM: My apologies for getting all snippy. My knickers are now successfully un-bunched. So, we're cool, right?

I agree that third person's the way to go. And the idea of semi-sentience seems to fit, based on what I've seen, with my own ideas about how this would work. But, having now gone around the bend a few times, I'll just let this all shake out, and take it wherever seems most appropriate when my time comes.

Best,
RS

 

[JUDO]

A Quickie

Hi! I'm back, but only for a quickie.

--------

Seems like the big discussion on 3rd vs. 1st has occurred (Thanks, KM. Nice example).

And the tone and voice thing has begun to settle.
Great!

--------
Memory???

I thought about WS's comment on the talisman making someone forget the events of possession and thought it had some merit.

How about this? I believe that I was mostly thinking about my character, who will likely not remember anything because she is completely sexaully clueless.

The more enlightened, the more you remember.

Cool?

--------
CHAIN???

Also, good point about this not being a true "chain."

Want to talk about this?

How about we allow the talisman to be affected somehow by the previous possessor's?

The only problem I have with it is how.


Thinking out loud:
I originally intended the talisman's power to be "channelled" from Shakti (with Shiva on the back because he is basically not disolluble from Shakti in legend - the supporting power, if you will).

So, perhaps the spirit of Shakti will remember the past and possibly change how her talisman acts in the future by what has occurred?

Not certain what this will mean, but perhaps that is best left up to the individual author.

------------

Now then, the talisman seems to be fairly open and flexible. It grants (or not) the bearer absolute power sexually over another, but it can also cause the bearer to be controlled to fulfill Shakti's (the Goddess of sexaul encounters) will.*

*- My character will have a particular problem with this because of her lack of "sexual insulation" against the power of the talisman.

------------

That's it. Quickie. More detail tomorrow. I'm tired.


- Judo

 

[Whispersecret]

It seems that many people have story ideas already in mind. That's a good thing. All this talk is bound to get the creative juices flowing.

However, (and this is not an accusation toward anyone at all) let's be careful we're not voicing opinions and making decisions based on where we want our individual story to go. We should step back and look at the "chain" as a whole and make decisions based on what would be best for the group.

 

[JUDO]

Talisman Questions

I have a few quick questions to finish the look and workings of the Talisman.

---------------------------------------------------

1) Would you like the Talisman to be made of ivory?

2) Would you like the Talisman to act differently based on its history (what has happened to it)?

3) Should we refer to the Talisman as a talisman or medallion in the body of our stories?

---------------------------------------------------

For me, the answer to the first two questions is "yes."

1) - Ivory is a common material used for small relief figurines, medallions and the like in India (the land of origin of the talisman).

2) - This would help us incorporate details of the preceding chapters into the following chapters, making the story more of a "chain."

3) - A medallion is a round or oval medal containing relief carving. A talisman is bascially the same thing, but must have a magical power; akin to an amulet.

I think we, as authors, should refer to it as best suits our characters and story.

So, use both, but use them wisely.

---------------------------------------------------

Let's hear discussion and votes on these.

Thanks.
- Judo

 

[KillerMuffin]

Good point, Whisper.

Like last time, since I seem to be the nimnilly starting out first again, I'm going to give a heads up to make sure this runs along the ideas that everyone else has. Unlike last time, tho', none of it's actually written, just plotted.

Time Frame: 139-141 AD
Location: Pons Aelius (Newcastle, UK)
Backstory: He got his heart broken a long time ago and was banished to the VI Legion to fight the Germanic tribes.
Talisman: I haven't figured that part out, still kicking ideas.

Plot:

1) She comes to warn him of her brother's plot to kill him in order to save her brother's life. He makes her his whore (talisman's influence).
2) She gets knocked up and kicked out by the family
3) They get married, though neither of them want to (talisman's influence)
4) She starts to fall in love with him and he refuses to admit he's already done the same (bullheaded male influence)
5) She dies in childbirth, he tries to make a deal with Hades (who isn't listening)
6) After holding his daughter he goes to the wall and tries to rip it down and admits that he loves her (talisman makes him not do away with himself to raise his daughter)

Metaphor:

He's obsessed with building Hadrian's Wall because it's also the wall around his heart.

Educated guess at word count: 10-15,000

Or is this TMI?

 

[JUDO]

Cult?

---------------------------------------------------
Talisman Cult?
---------------------------------------------------
An idea that I have had in regards to my character's story is the possibility of a cult, stemming from the original creators of the talisman.

Since its loss, the cult has been trying to find the talisman and return it to their ancient temple. They are still trying to do so throughout our story.

This does not mean that would need to have a cult figure (member of the cult) in your story, but it is something that you could use.

It's not necessary, but believe that it would help to make the story more of a chain, if one of these "members" were to show up now and again throughout our stories, trying to get the object returned, or protect it, or simply watch where it goes.

Of course, through these characters, we could learn more about the objects' history and how it works.

Again, this is not necessary, but it may help some of us flesh out our tales.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Re: Talisman Questions

---------------------------------------------------

1) Would you like the Talisman to be made of ivory?

Yes. Ivory is a warm and gentle-feeling substance. That gives connotations of something that's good. It was also alive at some point in time. Someone with an archeologist character could even research what it came from.

2) Would you like the Talisman to act differently based on its history (what has happened to it)?

I would like it to. That makes it "live." Perhaps it could grow as time passes? However, I do think that accomplishing that will make things a bit difficult since it's not a fully sentient character and no one is writing from its point of view. Though certain predispositions to making its influence strong in certain situations from the past would help develop it as a character.

3) Should we refer to the Talisman as a talisman or medallion in the body of our stories?

I hadn't thought about that. I was going to have my characters call it a medallion (they won't know that it's a talisman) and refer to it as a talisman myself. However, I will bow to uniformity.

---------------------------------------------------


On a side note, may we call you Generalissima Judo? You're doing a good job coordinating.

 

[mlyn]

Great Plot!

Full of human strife, love and turmoil!
I was planning along the lines of happy...

I've also been talking to Judo, and need to decide where to "stick" my story! Quote:
Ha! Well, of course, it's "permissable." This is what I would reccomend. If you can actually pull-off the dialect's, who was king, knight's, etc., then your 14th C. story will come off well.

But you really need to be able to sprinkle little tidbits of new knowledge that is real (little facts of history and the living conditions - favorite meals of the time, holidays, etc.), otherwise, your story will not get high marks.

One of the most difficult issues would be dealing with the dialog. 14th Century english (depending on whether the characters are of "high blood" (educated land-owners and considered wealthy) or commoners (everyone else), the dialects are nothing like what is heard today. How's your English historical knowledge?

If you think you can actually do this (not many can), then I'd go for it.

If not, go modern (today) or futuristic, where you can make it up. If you've written lots of stories, then go futuristic. If not, then just do modern, using what you know best.

Nothing wrong with that and certainly rife with sexy potential for a story.

My thoughts.

- Judo

PS - Let's discuss all of the rest of this on the thread, OK?


so at this point, I guess I'm up in the air?

 

[JUDO]

2nd Century White-trash!

Death through family, ego and obsession. Sounds like you, KM. I like it...and no, I don't think it's too much information (TMI?).


- Judo

 

[JUDO]

Writing Process

so at this point, I guess I'm up in the air?

"Up in the air?" So, the 14th Century seems a little daunting? ???

Then, what are you really comfortable with? Go with that.

Besides, you and the rest of us are going to get help. What do I mean?

Let's talk process:

Last year, I wrote a chapter on the chain. I was really lucky to come up with a plot and characters I was excited about and launched into it with relish.

I finished the "first words on paper" version very quickly, then I asked some other writer's here whose work I respected to take a look at it and give me feedback, if they had time.

Boy, did I get great feedback. Then, I rewrote, really thinking about every little thing that was said by those who had read my stuff. That and only that, made my story worthwhile.

I highly reccomend that we all do the same this year.

Writing Process Review:

1) Write
2) Ask for help
3) Get the feedback (You need to allow LOTS of time for this because those wonderful readers who will give you great feedback are busy, busy, busy!)
4) Rewrite, rewrite and rewrite.

 

[JUDO]

Re: Re: Talisman Questions

On a side note, may we call you Generalissima Judo? You're doing a good job coordinating.

Thanks, I know you guys have asked this a number of times in the thread at this point and I don't know what to say. Maybe I just like being head bitch or something.

Last year, I had such a good time writing for the chain with everyone else that I would love to try and get to that feeling again. So, I'm sticking my two cents in a lot.

Generallisima or not, I like doing it. And I'm glad you like the talisman.


- Judo