CBO: If Democrats push socialized medicine, get ready for rationing

[CornusKousa]

You first.

Just flailing....figures.

 

[schism666]

Just flailing....figures.

dafuq you think you've been doing all day?

 

[BoyNextDoor]

Link for the list

Now tell the one where if Obama Care passes the "Death Panels" will determine who gets care

Yeah ....

 

[CornusKousa]

dafuq you think you've been doing all day?

Triggering mindless lefties such as yourself into posting airhead shit like this.

 

[Veroe]

Converting to a NHS while being 29 trillion in debt would collapse our economy. Why people can't understand that anything the fed government controls is never cost effective or efficient. A national healthcare system eliminates freedom of choice. Let the states handle health care.

Never understood the freedom of choice argument even some of the democrats used against M4A.

You can pay an overpriced premium for a plan that will cover you if you get a heart attack but you're fucked if you get cancer, or pay for an overpriced plan that covers you for cancer but you're fucked if you have a heart attack, but having healthcare that covers everything and is paid through your taxes is socialism, and thus cannot work because remnants of cold war propaganda told us so.

Having a choice between shitty options, that's what's called freedom in America.

 

[CornusKousa]

Never understood the freedom of choice argument even some of the democrats used against M4A.

Most "progressives" don't....in fact most of them downright detest it. Unless abortion of course, then suddenly they're all Ron Paul libertarians

They think the federal government absolutely needs to put a gun to all 330 million peoples heads and force them to do it their way.

Just apply the same logic as abortion...."My body my choice" and "My money/property/labor my choice".....yay freedom!!

You can pay an overpriced premium for a plan that will cover you if you get a heart attack but you're fucked if you get cancer, or pay for an overpriced plan that covers you for cancer but you're fucked if you have a heart attack, but having healthcare that covers everything and is paid through your taxes is socialism, and thus cannot work because remnants of cold war propaganda told us so.

Maybe you should find a more left wing authoritarian state or even nation???

LOTS of them out there....

Having a choice between shitty options, that's what's called freedom in America.

That's just called freedom.....and if letting other people, especially in other states, live free is a problem?? If individual liberty is a problem for you??? You really might want to consider where it is that you live.

 

[Veroe]

Most "progressives" don't....in fact most of them downright detest it. Unless abortion of course, then suddenly they're all Ron Paul libertarians

They think the federal government absolutely needs to put a gun to all 330 million peoples heads and force them to do it their way.

Just apply the same logic as abortion...."My body my choice" and "My money/property/labor my choice".....yay freedom!!

I can turn that right around on you. So many right wingers want "freedom of choice" when it comes to healthcare except when a woman chooses to have an abortion. Then its a gun to their head, and you don't have the freedom to choose anything but having that baby. No "My body, my choice" there in that case.

Maybe you should find a more left wing authoritarian state or even nation???

LOTS of them out there....

So basically if you don't like the shitty overpriced private healthcare system then get out. Just be happy with shitty healthcare coverage and prices and health insurers looking for loopholes to not pay for your treatments leaving you SOL with the humongous bill.

That's just called freedom.....and if letting other people, especially in other states, live free is a problem?? If individual liberty is a problem for you??? You really might want to consider where it is that you live.

You see normally I wouldn't care, but the problem with that is for socialized healthcare to work effectively it has to apply to everybody equally.

It isn't subjugation, and going without isn't freedom or liberty. That's just you being a sucker for health insurers to gouge.

 

[BluesDriver66]

Never understood the freedom of choice argument even some of the democrats used against M4A.

You can pay an overpriced premium for a plan that will cover you if you get a heart attack but you're fucked if you get cancer, or pay for an overpriced plan that covers you for cancer but you're fucked if you have a heart attack, but having healthcare that covers everything and is paid through your taxes is socialism, and thus cannot work because remnants of cold war propaganda told us so.

Having a choice between shitty options, that's what's called freedom in America.

Totally agree. Freedom of choice argument is total bullshit. Can you imagine using any other vital service like that? "I got Fire Dept. insurance. It covers electrical fires but not grease fires or gas explosions." "I have Police Dept insurance. It covers murder but not kidnapping or rape." "I just love having the freedom choose which life saving service I will denied when I need it most after paying thousands of dollars up front."

 

[CornusKousa]

I can turn that right around on you..

Then you've already missed the point.

This isn't about the RW and what they are doing/trying to do. They aren't the ones pushing UHC.

So many right wingers want "freedom of choice" when it comes to healthcare except when a woman chooses to have an abortion. Then its a gun to their head, and you don't have the freedom to choose anything but having that baby. No "My body, my choice" there in that case.

Yes...and if you recognize their POV that life begins at conception and is a unique human organism which is a biologically sound argument. It's not that insane, even libertarians recognize and understand the harm principle.

And EVEN with all that, we as a nation have taken a radically liberal position on that haven't we?? States can regulate but not prohibit....women have freedom of choice in this country. That's a liberal thing, freedom loving peoples support.

We are a liberal nation....love and support for freedom and liberty are at the CORE of what it is to be an American.

So basically if you don't like the shitty overpriced private healthcare system then get out. Just be happy with shitty healthcare coverage and prices and health insurers looking for loopholes to not pay for your treatments leaving you SOL with the humongous bill.

Yes, and I say that as a matter of fact not a matter of malice.

The USA is a union of states founded in Classical English Liberalism and designed to ratchet towards liberty, and cock block/restrict centralizing too much authority in one place as much as possible.

It was designed to be like that....by the bunch of classical liberal/libertarians that founded the country and designed it's government.

You see normally I wouldn't care, but the problem with that is for socialized healthcare to work effectively it has to apply to everybody equally.

Yes, you can't allow any choice or escape....the government has to put a gun to peoples heads, hold them down, and take their money. If you don't those with the means will just opt out or leave.

Authoritarianism is the ONLY way, you get that kind of wealth redistribution.

That usually doesn't work out well in a government/system designed by a bunch of classical liberal/libertarians even if you ignore the pro liberty and freedom culture.

It isn't subjugation, and going without isn't freedom or liberty. That's just you being a sucker for health insurers to gouge.

If that were true you wouldn't need to put the federal gun to all 50 states and 330 million peoples heads for it then now would you??

I disagree, as there is a huge difference between the insurers and the Feds.

You tell the insurers to eat a dick and stop sending them money? No problem, they just stop your service. Like cable TV....

You can't tell the feds to fuck off and the IRS that you're not paying.

I mean you CAN, but the reality is if you want to stay living here? You're fuckin' paying one way or another....

https://i.imgur.com/qs6DwVF.gif

 

[jomar]

Totally agree. Freedom of choice argument is total bullshit. Can you imagine using any other vital service like that? "I got Fire Dept. insurance. It covers electrical fires but not grease fires or gas explosions." "I have Police Dept insurance. It covers murder but not kidnapping or rape." "I just love having the freedom choose which life saving service I will denied when I need it most after paying thousands of dollars up front."

Uh oh, look out now, you're in socialist commiland! God forbid the gummint look at health services like the police, fire departments, public education, infrastructure and such!

 

[CornusKousa]

Uh oh, look out now, you're in socialist commiland! God forbid the gummint look at health services like the police, fire departments, public education, infrastructure and such!

Health services and public health policy are nearly entirely controlled at the state level, just like all the other things you listed. Remember covid and how it was mostly left up to the states because that's the law???

Lefties want to change that and want control over all HC at the federal level....because socialism and authoritarianism is what just what leftist do. And if you can't make it work in your states? Just force it federally!!! LOL

 

[jomar]

Health services and public health policy are nearly entirely controlled at the state level, just like all the other things you listed. Remember covid and how it was mostly left up to the states because that's the law???

Lefties want to change that and want control over all HC at the federal level....because socialism and authoritarianism is what just what leftist do. And if you can't make it work in your states? Just force it federally!!! LOL

Amen, brother! Fuck the Dems for wanting steal money from for profit insurance companies and big pharm in their audacity to keep the USA a first world country!

ETA: Covid was mostly left up to the states because trump didn't know what he was doing. Remember the Federal Pandemic Playbook that would guide a coherant national response?

 

[PrincepsCyberius]

Yes, because every country in the world that has already "socialised" medical care has gone to rationing.

The assertion is just dumb.

Well, actually, you look "dumb" by suggesting they haven't.

Let's look at a few of the countries that proponents of government controlled or socialized medicine tend to hold up as shining examples:

Canada:

Canada has been able to develop a fairly successful system of healthcare rationing by balancing the conflicting concerns of equal access and cost efficiency, federal funding and provincial control, and public sector management and private sector provision. Financial constraints limit the kinds of services included within the notion of equal access, however, forcing healthcare providers to make difficult choices about who will receive a particular healthcare service.​

M.G. Brown, Rationing health care in Canada, Ann Health Law. 1993;2:101-19.

Finland:

S. Vandoorne & M. Bell, The ‘dark side’ of Finland’s famous free health care, CNN. 2019.

Japn:

T. Otake, Japan's buckling health care system at a crossroads, Japan Times. 2017

The Netherlands:

T. van Willigenburg, Communitarian illusions: or why the Dutch proposal for setting priorities in health care must fail. Health Care Anal. 1993 Jun;1(1):49-52.

The United Kingdom:

R. Vize, Rationing care is a fact of life for the NHS, The Guardian. 2015.
​

I could go on, but I think this makes the point.

Really, magicalmoments, if you're going to comment on matters of public policy, make sure you know the facts first. You'll be less inclined to so frequently embarrass yourself.

 

[CornusKousa]

Amen, brother! Fuck the Dems for wanting steal money from for profit insurance companies and big pharm in their audacity to keep the USA a first world country!

ETA: Covid was mostly left up to the states because trump didn't know what he was doing. Remember the Federal Pandemic Playbook that would guide a coherant national response?

Justify centralized federal control and authority forced down the throats of over a hundred million Americans and the majority of states that don't want it however you want comrade.

Just make sure you polish those jackboots up

 

[CornusKousa]

Well, actually, you look "dumb" by suggesting they haven't.

Let's look at a few of the countries that proponents of government controlled or socialized medicine tend to hold up as shining examples:

Canada:

Canada has been able to develop a fairly successful system of healthcare rationing by balancing the conflicting concerns of equal access and cost efficiency, federal funding and provincial control, and public sector management and private sector provision. Financial constraints limit the kinds of services included within the notion of equal access, however, forcing healthcare providers to make difficult choices about who will receive a particular healthcare service.​

M.G. Brown, Rationing health care in Canada, Ann Health Law. 1993;2:101-19.

Finland:

S. Vandoorne & M. Bell, The ‘dark side’ of Finland’s famous free health care, CNN. 2019.

Japn:

T. Otake, Japan's buckling health care system at a crossroads, Japan Times. 2017

The Netherlands:

T. van Willigenburg, Communitarian illusions: or why the Dutch proposal for setting priorities in health care must fail. Health Care Anal. 1993 Jun;1(1):49-52.

The United Kingdom:

R. Vize, Rationing care is a fact of life for the NHS, The Guardian. 2015.
​

I could go on, but I think this makes the point.

Really, magicalmoments, if you're going to comment on matters of public policy, make sure you know the facts first. You'll be less inclined to so frequently embarrass yourself.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-15-2015/IUyizC.gif
https://media0.giphy.com/media/YYRkVlmqo11MA/giphy.gif

 

[schism666]

Triggering mindless lefties such as yourself into posting airhead shit like this.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-15-2015/IUyizC.gif
https://media0.giphy.com/media/YYRkVlmqo11MA/giphy.gif

yeah, totally.

 

[icanhelp1]

Never understood the freedom of choice argument even some of the democrats used against M4A.

You can pay an overpriced premium for a plan that will cover you if you get a heart attack but you're fucked if you get cancer, or pay for an overpriced plan that covers you for cancer but you're fucked if you have a heart attack, but having healthcare that covers everything and is paid through your taxes is socialism, and thus cannot work because remnants of cold war propaganda told us so.

Having a choice between shitty options, that's what's called freedom in America.

How about the millions of employees that choose to keep coverage paid for by their employer? Younger people need a different type coverage than older people. Families need a different type than single people. High risk pools can be government run. Still have medicare and medicaid. Feds can provide insurance and medical care for those less fortunate but at the state level.

Health insurance is not a one size fits all. All you need to see is how the VA handled medical care for veterans, it's gotten better but the fact remains it's still not as comprehensive as people might think. The overflow is given to private medical facilities for practical reasons.

With our present debt we could never re-tool to a NHS without collapsing our economy.

Until something is done with tort law and medical malpractice suits or the cost of training medical personnel it will never happen.

 

[magicalmoments]

#38 above.
Selective articles from right wing publications do not make an argument.

One thing you're conveniently overlooking is that all the countries you mention run a tandem pubilc/private system. The private system picks up any shortfall that may happen. This is unlike the only 1st world country left that denies its citizens healthcare on the basis of wealth.

You live in a shithole, you've replaced your autocratic narcissist with a senile doddard, your healthcare system is fucked. No amount of self delusion is going to change that.

 

[KimGordon67]

Yea, leftist conflate unaffordable with rationed.

Got it.

You still have to ignore the definition of the word rationing to make that argument...thus it is still bullshit for the exact same reasons it was bullshit the last time you tried it.

You've been lied too, unaffordable =/= rationed, it's not the same thing, no matter how many lefties you cite pushing that lie.

I think it's a pretty easy argument to make that pricing something so high that only a segment of the population can afford it is a form a rationing for those who can't afford it.

 

[KimGordon67]

Well, actually, you look "dumb" by suggesting they haven't.

Let's look at a few of the countries that proponents of government controlled or socialized medicine tend to hold up as shining examples:

Canada:

Canada has been able to develop a fairly successful system of healthcare rationing by balancing the conflicting concerns of equal access and cost efficiency, federal funding and provincial control, and public sector management and private sector provision. Financial constraints limit the kinds of services included within the notion of equal access, however, forcing healthcare providers to make difficult choices about who will receive a particular healthcare service.​

M.G. Brown, Rationing health care in Canada, Ann Health Law. 1993;2:101-19.

Finland:

S. Vandoorne & M. Bell, The ‘dark side’ of Finland’s famous free health care, CNN. 2019.

Japn:

T. Otake, Japan's buckling health care system at a crossroads, Japan Times. 2017

The Netherlands:

T. van Willigenburg, Communitarian illusions: or why the Dutch proposal for setting priorities in health care must fail. Health Care Anal. 1993 Jun;1(1):49-52.

The United Kingdom:

R. Vize, Rationing care is a fact of life for the NHS, The Guardian. 2015.
​

I could go on, but I think this makes the point.

Really, magicalmoments, if you're going to comment on matters of public policy, make sure you know the facts first. You'll be less inclined to so frequently embarrass yourself.

It is true that healthcare is also somewhat rationed in states where it's socialised. I'm not sure the British NHS is a great example, because the whole system has disintegrated as a result of mismanagement. However, here, a lot of elective surgeries and other non-essential services are only available on the basis of meeting certain criteria, usually related to things like BMI and smoking, which are correlated with socio-economic status, so you could argue that access to this services is still linked to wealth. This is to some extent exacerbated by the fact that private health insurance is also available, but obviously only taken up by those who can afford it. Having private health insurance means you don't sit on waiting lists, and you can get around the criteria for access to elective procedures. So not a perfect system, but certainly more effective than the American system, especially when it comes to the healthcare of those in lower SES groups. This is in spite of the fact that US average per capita spend is higher than any other OECD state. Source (This info is available elsewhere, but not in such easily read formats.) The TLR version here is that the proportion of our taxes that fund healthcare is still lower that what, on average, Americans spend on health insurance. (I'm not sure if, in socialised-healthcare states, that figure includes what people are spending on private health insurance - it would be easy to find out, but I have other things to be doing.)

I don't think any healthcare system is going to be perfect, because the cost of a 'perfect' healthcare system would be pretty high, and people don't like paying tax (except in the Scandinavian states, where people seem to understand that high taxes are ultimately beneficial for the population, and for them as individuals).

ETA - just as an aside, demonstrating that healthcare is rationed in states where it's socialised doesn't actually prove that it's not rationed in the US. It is rationed in the US, just in different ways.