Catholic sex abuse -- how did it happen?

[AsylumSeeker]

Paint Me Suspicious...

But 660 mil is an awful lot of money.

After 9/11 there was deception by some to get money that was not deserved. The same is true for Katrina. And there is no doubt in my mind that there are people that have jumped on the bandwagon looking for a payday.

It is not my intent to minimize the pain and chaos suffered by the actual victims, but I'd bet good money not ALL of them are victims but rather a few are making false claims in hopes of a nice payday.

 

[Stella_Omega]

But 660 mil is an awful lot of money.

After 9/11 there was deception by some to get money that was not deserved. The same is true for Katrina. And there is no doubt in my mind that there are people that have jumped on the bandwagon looking for a payday.

It is not my intent to minimize the pain and chaos suffered by the actual victims, but I'd bet good money not ALL of them are victims but rather a few are making false claims in hopes of a nice payday.

Funny, the first things we think of, isn't it?

 

[Guest]

Yes.

They were interviewing people on the street about this.

One woman said she was certain that there were far more abused children than had ever been reported.

Another older woman said she was certain the problem had been exaggerated.

Abuse is an underreported crime. I imagine there are far more cases of abuse that just haven't been reported, and can't, once the statute of limitations has passed.

 

[3113]

As for a pedophile ring -- what I meant to imply is that priests experienced in the required techniques pass on this knowledge -- that these aren't a set of isolated incidents by isolated individuals, but part of a coherent, long standing culture.

I'm in agreement with Recidiva. The only conspiracy here was to keep such incidents quiet and swept under the rug--which is certainly bad enough--but that was the only way, I think, in which the church was aiding and abetting these men.

Keep in mind that this is a church and a school; if word of this gets out or gets around that is NOT in the best interest of the Pedophile. Parents could take away the kids, an angry Dad might beat or kill him. The church might transfer him. What this means is that you're not going to get pedophile priests comparing notes! You tell someone, even another priest, and they might blackmail you, or hurt you, or tell the whole town about you, or keep you from the kids.

In addition, I really doubt that the pedophile is proud of what he's doing. In denial, yes. Excusing it, yes. But not proud. Priests are *NOT* supposed to molest children. And the Church, though it might turn a blind eye to the practice, doesn't *want* them to molest children. This is a shameful, dangerous, furtive and very private act. The one thing a pedophile will always say to a kid: "Don't tell."

So, sorry, no, there was no passing on of tips and tricks between pedophile priests. There likely were, as Recidiva points out, a memory of tips and tricks from molester to victim; most pedophiles are self-taught. And really, it's not all that hard to gain a kid's trust, especially when you're in a position of trust already.

 

[WRJames]

I'm afraid conspiracies here are far fetched.

Oh bummer! I thought I was coming up with a theme that would make for a sure fire best-seller -- wouldn't it put The Da Vinci Code to shame? Just think -- a vast conspiracy deep in the fabric of the Catholic church -- centuries old -- and the mechanisms are so simple. Pick out the vulnerable families from what you find out in confession. They should be poor, pious, not too bright, deeply respectful (since I myself have almost no respect for authority I find this part hard to comprehend, but I could take a crack at it). If there is already an abused child, so much the better. Then seduce the child with a few gifts, some favors. Just the way your mentor taught you. Maybe the two of you do it together the first time, just to make sure you understand the technique.

Well, maybe it is just idle speculation. But then again, facts never bothered Dan Brown, did they?

 

[3113]

It is not my intent to minimize the pain and chaos suffered by the actual victims, but I'd bet good money not ALL of them are victims but rather a few are making false claims in hopes of a nice payday.

Yeah, it's be really easy to make false claims. Let's see...

1) You'd have to prove you were a student at the Catholic school at the prescribed time when the abuse was taking place--or that your family belonged to the church at least.

2) You'd have to know which priest was being accused of the abuse and what he usually did so that your story matched those of all the others who were abused by him and who's stories match. This might get a little sticky IF, as in the story I posted, kids abused by the priest went with him on camping trips and such, were given liquor by him. If you weren't in that group, they might say so, giving doubts to your claim.

3) As the church does have records, confessions and other documents from the pedophile priests (apparently) detailing some of this abuse you're going to have to hope that the priest's omission of your name doesn't undercut your insistence that you, too were abused by him. And you're going to have to hope he's not alive and confessing. Afterall, why would he confess to molesting all those other kids but not you?

4) You'd have to join the the people suing the church--and those suits were set in motion some ten or more years ago, so you've been waiting a long time for this windfall....worth it, I'm sure, but the longer it goes on, the more interviews and affidavits you give, the more you might misstep. And that could get you into trouble, lying under oath and all....

5) You might have to also show how you were affected by the abuse--the guy in the article went thought two wives, tried to kill himself, was distant from his kids, confronted another priest about it...I'm sure someone planning to make false claims could make sure their entire life looked like shit and a therapist backed them up to support their story.

Yep. Piece of cake to make a false claim.

My point, by the way, isn't that there couldn't be a false claim, only that this isn't like 9-11 or Katrina with all its chaos, lack of records, etc. This is a little bit harder to scam.

 

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[Pure]

So, sorry, no, there was no passing on of tips and tricks between pedophile priests. There likely were, as Recidiva points out, a memory of tips and tricks from molester to victim; most pedophiles are self-taught. And really, it's not all that hard to gain a kid's trust, especially when you're in a position of trust already.

perhaps the 'self taught' theory is correct. to which one might add that if you have 40 years to practice you can get very good at lots of things.

 

[WRJames]

Again, it already happened in real life (in Ohio), and I already wrote a story on it that was posted on Lit, but it wasn't a best seller. Got some nice votes, and nary a comment, I don't think. My apologies.

You got it past the Lit under 18 vigilantes? Got a link?

 

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[3113]

Just reading the morning news on the subject. Hell, maybe there was a ring. 500+ victims, 200+ priests and that's only in the L.A. diocese; evidently there's some 150 more folk in San Diego trying to get their case heard.

Mind you, that is over 70 years time, and that's some priests who molested teens rather than little children. One girl was evidently molested by seven priests starting when she was 16!

Seven???

Maybe older priests did encourage the younger priests to take advantage of, say, the teenaged girls in their parish.

 

[rgraham666]

Shrugs. It's just a large organization protecting its power, that's all.

The priests involved used the power of the Church in such a way as to satisfy their own wants. As human beings often do.

The Church, believing that these events being revealed to the public would lessen its power, covered up these events.

When your ego is dependent on the power of the organization you belong to you will do anything to protect yourself.

This is why I so dislike and fear the corporatist society we're rapidly becoming. Less and less we're individuals with individual responsibilities, obligations and duties. More and more we're becoming parts of organizations. Organizations with no responsibilities, obligations and duties. Except to the power of the organization.

 

[WRJames]

One girl was evidently molested by seven priests starting when she was 16!

This is what astounds me. How could the girl let it go on? How could her family let it go on? Unless she was enjoying it?

 

[Guest]

This is what astounds me. How could the girl let it go on? How could her family let it go on? Unless she was enjoying it?

DON'T blame the victim.

I have seen this approach often, even if the child being abused is younger than ten.

People are so horrified by the crime they place the blame for the situation on the child.

We don't know the situation. A minor child was abused by many adult authority figures. What was she supposed to do? Who was she supposed to tell? Did she try? Was she believed?

 

[Recidiva]

This is what astounds me. How could the girl let it go on? How could her family let it go on? Unless she was enjoying it?

To me this is saying "How do you catch a cold? How do you not stop having a cold? She must be enjoying being sick."

It's not about that at all. Some people are excellent predators and use any amount of threats (don't tell anyone or God hates you and your whole family goes to hell) or intimate promises (This is good for your soul, but other people don't understand, and they would stop us, they're the Devil's forces.) to get what they want.

Those who are never sick and aren't prone to these thought patterns, won't be chosen, won't be the easiest target.

Robert Heinlein said "You can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

But there's any other number of permutations of "unfree" that make you easy to be conquered. And the power of the predator's threats will go a long way.

Very few children understand the power plays, they only understand the surface threats and surface realities. That's why they are not in charge of their own legal decisions.

 

[WRJames]

To me this is saying "How do you catch a cold? How do you not stop having a cold? She must be enjoying being sick."

It's not about that at all. Some people are excellent predators and use any amount of threats (don't tell anyone or God hates you and your whole family goes to hell) or intimate promises (This is good for your soul, but other people don't understand, and they would stop us, they're the Devil's forces.) to get what they want.

Those who are never sick and aren't prone to these thought patterns, won't be chosen, won't be the easiest target.

Robert Heinlein said "You can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

But there's any other number of permutations of "unfree" that make you easy to be conquered. And the power of the predator's threats will go a long way.

Very few children understand the power plays, they only understand the surface threats and surface realities. That's why they are not in charge of their own legal decisions.

Well, something is keeping these kids locked into the abusive relationship for very long periods. I can understand with a younger child in a domestic situation how they are trapped. A sixteen year old girl in a non-domestic situation would seem to me to have more options.

 

[Recidiva]

Well, something is keeping these kids locked into the abusive relationship for very long periods. I can understand with a younger child in a domestic situation how they are trapped. A sixteen year old girl in a non-domestic situation would seem to me to have more options.

You might be way too healthy to understand how sick things get.

I don't feel like drawing a finer pictures. But I'm not sure you can imagine the layers of corruption and lies and the eroding of personal boundaries until it's all you know.

Which is good. Because it's something that shouldn't occur to you.

 

[WRJames]

DON'T blame the victim.

I have seen this approach often, even if the child being abused is younger than ten.

People are so horrified by the crime they place the blame for the situation on the child.

We don't know the situation. A minor child was abused by many adult authority figures. What was she supposed to do? Who was she supposed to tell? Did she try? Was she believed?

I have tried to avoid simply going into a polemic about how outraged I am. Let me assure you, I consider what these priests did to be pure evil by any standard that could possibly be applied. Even if they were seducing adults it would be an outrageous abuse of their position, and to seduce children is -- well I hesitate to use the word unforgivable, but it is difficult to find an adequate term.

This is made all the more maddening because of the prissiness of the Catholic hierarchy with its head-up-its-ass positions on abortion, family planning, gay rights, condoms to fight AIDS, etc. Within the UN, the Vatican stands shoulder to shoulder with Saudi Arabia and the United States in opposition to important treaties concerning the rights of women and children.

So, I am not in any way blaming the victim or in any way suggesting that it was "all right" -- I am only trying to understand the dynamics of the situation. What happened was a secret, "unimaginable" horror, in part because we have not dared to let our imaginations tread into that dark, forbidden territory.

 

[3113]

So, I am not in any way blaming the victim or in any way suggesting that it was "all right" -- I am only trying to understand the dynamics of the situation. What happened was a secret, "unimaginable" horror, in part because we have not dared to let our imaginations tread into that dark, forbidden territory.

You asked about the mentality here--and it's really not so hard to understand why such a thing could happen and go on for so long. Do you remember my mention of Jim Jones? Think of him, and think of other cults like that. Now I'm not saying that Catholicism is a cult. But what I am going to argue is that those in a position of leadership and power in any religion can create a "cult-like" atmosphere for those they want to "entrap."

Understand first that no one intends to join a cult. And when someone does join they're given a very positive experience--nothing to suggest that they're entering a cult. Go back to that article I posted. The Priest didn't molest the kid at their first meeting, or at the next, or the next...the priest waited. And while he was waiting he presented himself as a "dad" to the kid. He took the kid places, was there for him, helped him, supported him bought him things his family could not buy him. AND he got in good with the kid's mom who loved him. So this priest isn't only a favorite with the kids--and making those boys he's paying special attention to feel special--he's a favorite with the parents as well who approve of his spending time with their kids. A good priest to set those lads right and keep them off drugs!

You with me so far?

This is the way cult leaders always start--by being your friend, your guru, by being a charismatic person who gives you love, attention, guidance, and support. By giving you a fun environment where you feel good, like you're part of a family. So now you trust him.

Time to toss in the religious element: the priest is your spiritual guide as well. He's suppose to teach you about your faith and how to follow it. So, you go to your friend, whom you trust, for these teachings. And he tells you: don't think, don't ask questions, do as you're told. That's what God wants. Now I'm the sort who always asks questions and no one is going to get me to stop--and maybe you are, too. But there's a lot of people who find comfort in this. Ever seen that bumper sticker: "God said it, I believe it, and that's that."? People feel comforted by absolute answers and being told what to do--especially from someone they trust and admire. "God wants you to do this," the leader says, and the person thinks, "Oh, good, I was so uncertain. It's nice to have someone to tell me how to act right and avoid what's wrong...."

So, now the leader starts to take advantage of his follower(s). He tells them what to do, and they, having been taught to trust him, like him, and think he has the answers, obey him. Still, what he's doing feels wrong and embarrassing to the follower--but that in itself is a problem. They're too embarrassed to tell others about. And remember, their family loves and trusts this guy. How can they tell their family that the person they love and trust is doing such things?

It's at this point that the priest/leader will start reinforcing his hold on the victim. Do they want what they've been doing getting around the school? Do they want their family to be stared at? ostracized? Don't they understand that what they're doing isn't wrong, it's holy? Do they know what kind of power the church has? Etc. You asked about the 16 year old girl. Clearly, you're not a 16 year old girl, but when you were 16, did you want to be called names and have everyone staring at you? What extremes did you go to to blend in? What things did you keep secret from your parents for fear of what they'd think? Did you ever trust an adult who screwed you over? Did you tell folk about it, or keep it secret? What was it like for girls in your class who were called "slut" and mocked by their fellow students?

When you're 16 you want to fit in, you want to *appear* normal--and these things you're saying, "She must have liked it!"--don't you think she believed her fellow students might whisper that about her? She wanted it, she invited it, she's a slut? Appearing normal and like any other 16-year old is the most important thing to a 16 year old--and appearing to be a "good girl" is even more important when the "slut" word can go around and destroy you.

Does any of this help you understand how this could happen and NOT get out? Why someone would keep it a secret? And for God's sake, look at what happened when it did come out! Some victims were denied, not believed, people sided with the church against them...and then there was five fucking years of litigation. To go through all that and maybe get nothing in the end is not an easy decision to make.

 

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[3113]

These people are made to believe that theirs is the only way to eternal life (yes, the present pope even said so, apparently, and started a firestorm).

He can't quite keep his foot out of his mouth, can he?

Then again, his predecessor, as I recall, reminded priests who were questioning things (like celibacy and such) that Catholicism was "not a democracy!"

 

[Boxlicker101]

You asked about the mentality here--and it's really not so hard to understand why such a thing could happen and go on for so long. Do you remember my mention of Jim Jones? Think of him, and think of other cults like that. Now I'm not saying that Catholicism is a cult. But what I am going to argue is that those in a position of leadership and power in any religion can create a "cult-like" atmosphere for those they want to "entrap."

Understand first that no one intends to join a cult. And when someone does join they're given a very positive experience--nothing to suggest that they're entering a cult. Go back to that article I posted. The Priest didn't molest the kid at their first meeting, or at the next, or the next...the priest waited. And while he was waiting he presented himself as a "dad" to the kid. He took the kid places, was there for him, helped him, supported him bought him things his family could not buy him. AND he got in good with the kid's mom who loved him. So this priest isn't only a favorite with the kids--and making those boys he's paying special attention to feel special--he's a favorite with the parents as well who approve of his spending time with their kids. A good priest to set those lads right and keep them off drugs!

You with me so far?

This is the way cult leaders always start--by being your friend, your guru, by being a charismatic person who gives you love, attention, guidance, and support. By giving you a fun environment where you feel good, like you're part of a family. So now you trust him.

Time to toss in the religious element: the priest is your spiritual guide as well. He's suppose to teach you about your faith and how to follow it. So, you go to your friend, whom you trust, for these teachings. And he tells you: don't think, don't ask questions, do as you're told. That's what God wants. Now I'm the sort who always asks questions and no one is going to get me to stop--and maybe you are, too. But there's a lot of people who find comfort in this. Ever seen that bumper sticker: "God said it, I believe it, and that's that."? People feel comforted by absolute answers and being told what to do--especially from someone they trust and admire. "God wants you to do this," the leader says, and the person thinks, "Oh, good, I was so uncertain. It's nice to have someone to tell me how to act right and avoid what's wrong...."

So, now the leader starts to take advantage of his follower(s). He tells them what to do, and they, having been taught to trust him, like him, and think he has the answers, obey him. Still, what he's doing feels wrong and embarrassing to the follower--but that in itself is a problem. They're too embarrassed to tell others about. And remember, their family loves and trusts this guy. How can they tell their family that the person they love and trust is doing such things?

It's at this point that the priest/leader will start reinforcing his hold on the victim. Do they want what they've been doing getting around the school? Do they want their family to be stared at? ostracized? Don't they understand that what they're doing isn't wrong, it's holy? Do they know what kind of power the church has? Etc. You asked about the 16 year old girl. Clearly, you're not a 16 year old girl, but when you were 16, did you want to be called names and have everyone staring at you? What extremes did you go to to blend in? What things did you keep secret from your parents for fear of what they'd think? Did you ever trust an adult who screwed you over? Did you tell folk about it, or keep it secret? What was it like for girls in your class who were called "slut" and mocked by their fellow students?

When you're 16 you want to fit in, you want to *appear* normal--and these things you're saying, "She must have liked it!"--don't you think she believed her fellow students might whisper that about her? She wanted it, she invited it, she's a slut? Appearing normal and like any other 16-year old is the most important thing to a 16 year old--and appearing to be a "good girl" is even more important when the "slut" word can go around and destroy you.

Does any of this help you understand how this could happen and NOT get out? Why someone would keep it a secret? And for God's sake, look at what happened when it did come out! Some victims were denied, not believed, people sided with the church against them...and then there was five fucking years of litigation. To go through all that and maybe get nothing in the end is not an easy decision to make.

At the same time, maybe she really did enjoy it. I'm not saying she did, mind you, but I'm also not saying she didn't, because I don't know. I do know that many, many girls and women enjoy having sex, and I do know that many girls and women enjoy being the center of attention. Did all these men get together in a gangbang, or did each one have one day a week with her?

 

[Guest]

At the same time, maybe she really did enjoy it. I'm not saying she did, mind you, but I'm also not saying she didn't, because I don't know. I do know that many, many girls and women enjoy having sex, and I do know that many girls and women enjoy being the center of attention. Did all these men get together in a gangbang, or did each one have one day a week with her?

Oh, my.

That's revolting.

 

[WRJames]

Oh, my.

That's revolting.

It's male. Possibly my insensitivity is male -- it may just be me. Remember, I started this thread because I was baffled. I actually tried to look up more information on the girl and the seven priests, but I got so many hits when I entered "seven priests" and "rape" that I couldn't find the right article.

As for not paying attention to children -- I'm not sure how to answer that. My own two offspring are no longer children. I don't think they ever faced abuse, if they did, they never shared it with their parents.

My own experience with preteen boys is that I could not get them to cooperate long enough to run soccer drills. If they have a lot of respect for authority, I never saw it. Maybe I should have worn a cassock.