Catholic sex abuse -- how did it happen?

[Recidiva]

I'm not a Catholic, so I don't know, I've not been abused by a priest, so I don't know but I don't think every child will be the same. I never saw the vicars I came into contact as being any more special in Gods eyes than myself, I certainly didn't see them as being particularly favoured by God. However, that is me, but I don't think we can say one way or another exactly what all children think about priests.

No, not every child is the same, which is why they don't abuse every child, just the ones vulnerable to a few particular strategies.

I can say specifically for at least a few people, exactly what happened, how, and why they, as adults, will not admit to it publicly.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I'm fairly sure that the priest presents himself to the child as being closer to God than they are. They're granted the rights of confession and power over people in the parish. There's no way a child doesn't see that as God's favor.

You speak as if there were only one sort of priest in the world. There are many. They are as diverse a group, on the whole, as any other profession. Some teachers take the authority they are given and abuse it; many others are kind, generous, and good people. It's a very similar situation with priests.

 

[Recidiva]

You speak as if there were only one sort of priest in the world. There are many. They are as diverse a group, on the whole, as any other profession. Some teachers take the authority they are given and abuse it; many others are kind, generous, and good people. It's a very similar situation with priests.

No, I'm describing the subset that abuse. Not every one.

 

[Caitano]

<snip>

Matthew 25:34-40

A priest is no closer to God than any other person.

I think people may be intimdated by a priest because they're seen by many as authority figures. Also, a priest is seen as above suspision by many and a young person is unlikely to challenge an adult authority figure of any kind over something such as this because they think they won't be believed.

A priest actually IS an authority figure, EL. Adults may be able to decide that a priest's authority doesn't extend to them, but a child is actually predisposed to trust authority figures, by reflex, as it were. On the whole, the species is better served if children are not suspicious of the motives of their parents or others set over them-- they would live longer, generally speaking-- and the tendency of younger children to go along with such figures' ideas is very marked.

By ten years of age, provided the child ever has an opportunity to make any independent decisions, the tendency I'm speaking of is mitigated by the child's judgement. Not every time, though, since people are capable of becoming "institutionalized" at any age. Barring that kind of situation of dependence on authority structures, though, the second decade of a person's life is a tale of coming into one's own about the issue of authority.

A young child is simply going to accept a priest's authority, at least at first, and any reservations will be easily lulled.

 

[English Lady]

A priest actually IS an authority figure, EL. Adults may be able to decide that a priest's authority doesn't extend to them, but a child is actually predisposed to trust authority figures, by reflex, as it were. On the whole, the species is better served if children are not suspicious of the motives of their parents or others set over them-- they would live longer, generally speaking-- and the tendency of younger children to go along with such figures' ideas is very marked.

By ten years of age, provided the child ever has an opportunity to make any independent decisions, the tendency I'm speaking of is mitigated by the child's judgement. Not every time, though, since people are capable of becoming "institutionalized" at any age. Barring that kind of situation of dependence on authority structures, though, the second decade of a person's life is a tale of coming into one's own about the issue of authority.

A young child is simply going to accept a priest's authority, at least at first, and any reservations will be easily lulled.

I agree that a priest is an athority figure, no two ways about that but they are no closer to God than you and I, that is all I'm saying.

 

[EveAnna]

I wonder if the tales of abuse are coming out now because the Catholic Church doesn't have such a hold over people as they used to have.

Organised religion is fast falling out of favour and the Catholic religion is no different. The kids of today are not as vulnerable as they were a few years ago, there is much more awareness of priest abuse - we know it happens and the church can't cover it up and close ranks like they used to.

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[WRJames]

It's acutely specific to the priest and the child. I can't really betray the confidence of people I know that were abused and give specifics. But I do believe it is a culture, it is not "unheard of" and that there is a specific attempt to lie and evade about the truth in order to protect the Church.

Members of the church may see this as a reasonable thing, I do not. I don't believe in God enough to believe that the Church should be protected over the wellbeing of children.

Well, my next question -- and I admit it is a gruesome one, but understand that in my novels some clutures have returned to practicing child sacrifice, so I am a capapble of very dark imaginings. Do you think that a family would deliberately, knowingly, sacrifice a child to a priest? Of, if not initially, even when they know it is happening, not only allow it to continue, but force the child to stay in that situation?

 

[Recidiva]

Well, my next question -- and I admit it is a gruesome one, but understand that in my novels some clutures have returned to practicing child sacrifice, so I am a capapble of very dark imaginings. Do you think that a family would deliberately, knowingly, sacrifice a child to a priest? Of, if not initially, even when they know it is happening, not only allow it to continue, but force the child to stay in that situation?

Yes, I'm afraid they will. Particularly in families where denial and dysfunction is the norm.

For some, being cast out of the group for speaking out, and considered being a demonic influence and being blamed for being bad and leading the priest astray, or simply not trusting that the child will be believed and it would all be for nothing...to hold on to status and their position? You bet they would.

Mothers cover for fathers who abuse their kids. Kids cover for parents who abuse them. Fathers cover for mothers who abuse them. A priest insinuates themselves into that intimate circle.

 

[3113]

Matthew 25:34-40

A priest is no closer to God than any other person.

This is disingenuous, EL. What child is going to be reading this passage and thinking "Gosh, we're all equal. The priest isn't closer to God than I am?" Besides which, as you point out, you're not viewing this as a Catholic. The Church of England had a small disagreement with Catholicism over this very subject--that being that Priests could read the bible and laymen could not, and priests were needed to intercede between man and God--man could not approach God on his own.

Not, mind you, that the modern Catholic Church may hold so strongly to such things as did the 16th century Church, but the argument that Priests are no closer to God than anyone else was an issue at that time and part of the reason behind the split (Henry VIII divorce being the other reason).

ACTIONS speak louder than words. If a kid sees people going to the priest asking "Why would God do this?" and the priest has the answers; if the priest says, "I know what God wants you to do..." if he's the only one allowed to handle sacred items and give communion and offer God's forgiveness for sins...then I'm afraid that the conclusion that a CHILD is going to reach is that the priest MUST be closer to God than others.

Whether that is true or not is ultimately, irrelevant. All that matters is what the child BELIEVES give what the child sees, not what you believe is esoterically true or not true from your interpretation of the Bible.

 

[WRJames]

You speak as if there were only one sort of priest in the world. There are many. They are as diverse a group, on the whole, as any other profession. Some teachers take the authority they are given and abuse it; many others are kind, generous, and good people. It's a very similar situation with priests.

I am sure that there are many, hopefully most, sincerely good priests. But how deeply ingrained is the culture of abuse within the priesthood? Wouldn't young men who are struggling with their sexuality -- perhaps they sense they are gay, perhaps they are drawn to children, perhaps they just have trouble connecting with any sexual relationship, perhaps they have been "willing" partners of an abusive relationship -- would they not, perhaps, seek refuge in the celibate life of the priesthood? And then, discover that there is a subculture within it, one where they can act out their desires? Are these sponaneous. isolated incidents, or something that is carefully taught, secret knowledge passed on over many centuries, a web of depravity deeply woven into the fabric of the church? Why would the Archbishop of LA have been so baffled as to how to address his problems? Why is an evident pedophile promoted to Cardinal in defiance of all common sense?

 

[Recidiva]

I am sure that there are many, hopefully most, sincerely good priests. But how deeply ingrained is the culture of abuse within the priesthood? Wouldn't young men who are struggling with their sexuality -- perhaps they sense they are gay, perhaps they are drawn to children, perhaps they just have trouble connecting with any sexual relationship, perhaps they have been "willing" partners of an abusive relationship -- would they not, perhaps, seek refuge in the celibate life of the priesthood? And then, discover that there is a subculture within it, one where they can act out their desires? Are these sponaneous. isolated incidents, or something that is carefully taught, secret knowledge passed on over many centuries, a web of depravity deeply woven into the fabric of the church? Why would the Archbishop of LA have been so baffled as to how to address his problems? Why is an evident pedophile promoted to Cardinal in defiance of all common sense?

The sense of "keeping up appearances" and "saving face" is absolutely crucial. If the idea of infallibility shows too much wear and tear, it's not good for their position.

At a certain point it is not anything regarding the wellbeing of the congregation and it's all about the wellbeing of the mother Church.

It's fairly easy to figure out how people who are taught celibacy find out how to circumvent it. It's like starving little kids and telling them not to steal. Which one do you think is going to happen? Sure, some of the kids are gonna starve, and some of them are going to get really good at not getting caught.

THIS IS SPARTA!

 

[3113]

Well, my next question -- and I admit it is a gruesome one, but understand that in my novels some clutures have returned to practicing child sacrifice, so I am a capapble of very dark imaginings. Do you think that a family would deliberately, knowingly, sacrifice a child to a priest? Of, if not initially, even when they know it is happening, not only allow it to continue, but force the child to stay in that situation?

Jim Jones asked his followers to give that cool-aid to their children, babies included, before taking it themselves...and almost all of them did.

In a compound in Colorado, an extreme "Momon" sect that believes in polygamy routinely has mothers abandon their adolescent boys on the side of the road so that the growing boys won't compete for the young girls who've been promised to older men as new wives. And I've no doubt that more than more parent in Africa has allowed his underage daughter to be raped for money--because a lot of folk there believe that having sex with a virgin will cure AIDS.

Parents have done and will do all sorts of appalling things to their kids or let all sorts of things be done to their children--actively as well as passively (i.e. turning a blind eye when someone else abuses the kid); the reason for this is that parents often see children as extensions of themselves or as property. They view what they do to their kids as their own business and for the good of the *family* (that includes ignoring abuse being done by someone else)--and sometimes even for the good of the child (in some cultures, a child sacrificed to the gods gets to be with the gods).

Remember--anyone who can get pregnant can have a kid,. People you wouldn't give a driving license or a job to, or any responsibility that takes brains and maturity...they can have and raise kids.

 

[Recidiva]

As an addition here, as to this being spontaneous or learned. I'm certain a great number of priests who do this to children, had it done to them. This is most often where the behavior is learned.

 

[3113]

Wouldn't young men who are struggling with their sexuality -- perhaps they sense they are gay, perhaps they are drawn to children, perhaps they just have trouble connecting with any sexual relationship, perhaps they have been "willing" partners of an abusive relationship -- would they not, perhaps, seek refuge in the celibate life of the priesthood? And then, discover that there is a subculture within it, one where they can act out their desires?

James, let's be clear, because confusing being gay with pedophila is a long time and horrible stereotype.

If a priest is gay or hetero, and they're going to skirt around their vows they are not going to have sex with children. Especially as there are likely to be plenty of young women and young men in the congregation who are enamored of their priests and willing to have relations with them. There are, likewise, plenty of men and women who might be coerced into sex with a priest just like they might be coerced itno sex with a therapist or policeman or any other authority figure they trust and who has power and influence in the community.

It is only a PEDOPHILE who is going to have sex with children. A gay man is going to want at *least* a teenaged boy, not a child. Just like a heterosexual man is going to want at *least* a teenaged girl, not a child. Now, we will *grant* that it's easier to coerce a younger person, and we will grant that someone 14-17 years of age is not "legal"--but they're not children either.

The point is: an adult male needing sexual release is not going to force himself on children unless children is what he is sexually attracted to and would be attracted to whether he was celibate or not. Or do you really believe, if you were deprived of women for, say, a year, that you would start seeing children as sexually desirable? I think not.

 

[Guest]

James, let's be clear, because confusing being gay with pedophila is a long time and horrible stereotype.

If a priest is gay or hetero, and they're going to skirt around their vows they are not going to have sex with children. Especially as there are likely to be plenty of young women and young men in the congregation who are enamored of their priests and willing to have relations with them. There are, likewise, plenty of men and women who might be coerced into sex with a priest just like they might be coerced itno sex with a therapist or policeman or any other authority figure they trust and who has power and influence in the community.

It is only a PEDOPHILE who is going to have sex with children. A gay man is going to want at *least* a teenaged boy, not a child. Just like a heterosexual man is going to want at *least* a teenaged girl, not a child. Now, we will *grant* that it's easier to coerce a younger person, and we will grant that someone 14-17 years of age is not "legal"--but they're not children either.

The point is: an adult male needing sexual release is not going to force himself on children unless children is what he is sexually attracted to and would be attracted to whether he was celibate or not. Or do you really believe, if you were deprived of women for, say, a year, that you would start seeing children as sexually desirable? I think not.

Thanks for the clarification, 3113. This misconception is held by many, unfortunately.

 

[WRJames]

James, let's be clear, because confusing being gay with pedophila is a long time and horrible stereotype.

If a priest is gay or hetero, and they're going to skirt around their vows they are not going to have sex with children. Especially as there are likely to be plenty of young women and young men in the congregation who are enamored of their priests and willing to have relations with them. There are, likewise, plenty of men and women who might be coerced into sex with a priest just like they might be coerced itno sex with a therapist or policeman or any other authority figure they trust and who has power and influence in the community.

It is only a PEDOPHILE who is going to have sex with children. A gay man is going to want at *least* a teenaged boy, not a child. Just like a heterosexual man is going to want at *least* a teenaged girl, not a child. Now, we will *grant* that it's easier to coerce a younger person, and we will grant that someone 14-17 years of age is not "legal"--but they're not children either.

The point is: an adult male needing sexual release is not going to force himself on children unless children is what he is sexually attracted to and would be attracted to whether he was celibate or not. Or do you really believe, if you were deprived of women for, say, a year, that you would start seeing children as sexually desirable? I think not.

I think you are probably correct, and let me make it clear, I am just wildly speculating here -- it's my writer side in action. But -- suppose, just suppose, that these priests in training get inducted into a pedophile ring -- maybe they are borderline to begin with, maybe it would be older boys that they would be more interested in, but it's the younger ones that are so readily seduced.

As for what I would do if I were deprived of women for a year -- extrapolating from what I have felt like after a four or five day business trip, I would be ready to fuck anything that moves. At least on some level.

 

[BlackShanglan]

No, I'm describing the subset that abuse. Not every one.

Oops, sorry there. I somehow missed the context when moving through messages. Apologies!

 

[BlackShanglan]

James, let's be clear, because confusing being gay with pedophila is a long time and horrible stereotype.

If a priest is gay or hetero, and they're going to skirt around their vows they are not going to have sex with children. Especially as there are likely to be plenty of young women and young men in the congregation who are enamored of their priests and willing to have relations with them. There are, likewise, plenty of men and women who might be coerced into sex with a priest just like they might be coerced itno sex with a therapist or policeman or any other authority figure they trust and who has power and influence in the community.

It is only a PEDOPHILE who is going to have sex with children. A gay man is going to want at *least* a teenaged boy, not a child. Just like a heterosexual man is going to want at *least* a teenaged girl, not a child. Now, we will *grant* that it's easier to coerce a younger person, and we will grant that someone 14-17 years of age is not "legal"--but they're not children either.

The point is: an adult male needing sexual release is not going to force himself on children unless children is what he is sexually attracted to and would be attracted to whether he was celibate or not. Or do you really believe, if you were deprived of women for, say, a year, that you would start seeing children as sexually desirable? I think not.

Hmmm. Then what are we to make of isolated places or cultures - Pitcairn Island springs to mind, and the latest scandals in the Australian aboriginal reserve areas - in which pedophilia appears to occur at a much higher rate than elsewhere? That would seem to suggest that it's not always a genetic abnormality or a practice taken up by people who are only ever attracted to children, but that indeed it can occur opportunistically under the right circumstances.

 

[3113]

I think you are probably correct, and let me make it clear, I am just wildly speculating here -- it's my writer side in action. But -- suppose, just suppose, that these priests in training get inducted into a pedophile ring -- maybe they are borderline to begin with, maybe it would be older boys that they would be more interested in, but it's the younger ones that are so readily seduced.

A pedophile ring? Borderline? Okay...

1) There are and have always been sick people who have brothels with children in them, or who are willing to "sell" kids to pedophiles. For the most part, however, Pedophiles work and prey on their victims alone and in secret. The closest thing, in modern terms, to a "pedophile" ring are men stalking on the internet who talk to each other and form "groups" (sic) that try to convince themselves that what they're doing is perfectly natural.

So while it may *seem* from the number of victims in the newspaper that there had to be a "ring" of pedophile priests introducing new clergy into their secret club and perpetuating this crime the sad truth is that only a few priests were responsible and they did it all secretly and on their own. The reason there's so many victims is not because there's a whole monastery of pedophiles...but because a handful of pedophiles were transfered from place to place--given new grazing land as it were--and allowed to do what they did unchecked for DECADES.

Just do the numbers. A priest molests four or five kids (in different places) for twenty years. That's 80-100 kids...and that's ONE priest!

2) As for borderline, sorry, no. As pointed out, most pedophiles were molested themselves as children. A normal, sexually healthy adult doesn't have sex with a child because all the cool kids are doing it and then, after that first taste, suddenly finds themselves addicted! A person has sex with a child because their own experience has left them damaged. There is no borderline. Either the guy knows that he's got this attraction and he's got to watch himself now and forever, or he's has no such attraction.

 

[3113]

Hmmm. Then what are we to make of isolated places or cultures - Pitcairn Island springs to mind, and the latest scandals in the Australian aboriginal reserve areas - in which pedophilia appears to occur at a much higher rate than elsewhere? That would seem to suggest that it's not always a genetic abnormality or a practice taken up by people who are only ever attracted to children, but that indeed it can occur opportunistically under the right circumstances.

I didn't say it was a *genetic adnormality*

I don't think it is. I think what Recidiva said. If you're molested as a child--likely at a certain age, you *might* yourself become a molester. No "genetic abnormality" required. You program the right kid at the right age with the right sort of abuse and you've got a molester. You program several such kids, and let them grow up in a culture that allows the practice to continue unchecked, and, surprise, surprise, you've got a "higher rate" of pedophiles. More kids molested = more molesters to molest more kids and make more molesters.

By contrast, I *do* believe there IS a genetic mandate for being gay or heterosexual--or anything in between for that matter. And science is proving this more and more. If gay-ness was not a genetic mandate, if it was like molestation, then every gay person would have had to have had a gay, sexual experience as a kid. You would not have kids raised in "normal" heterosexual families, unmolested, virgins, knowing *NOTHING* about what gay sex was, yet KNOWING that they're attracted to the same sex and wondering why. THAT is a genetic mandate. The molesters, to the contrary, usually know why and when and how they got to be the way they are.

There may be gay pedophiles, but there is no corollary between being gay and being a pedophile. One does not equal the other.

 

[WRJames]

Hmmm. Then what are we to make of isolated places or cultures - Pitcairn Island springs to mind, and the latest scandals in the Australian aboriginal reserve areas - in which pedophilia appears to occur at a much higher rate than elsewhere? That would seem to suggest that it's not always a genetic abnormality or a practice taken up by people who are only ever attracted to children, but that indeed it can occur opportunistically under the right circumstances.

My wife was just at a UN conference (the topic was the "girl-child") -- apparently what we would consider rampant child abuse is more or less run of the mill in Southeast Asia.

 

[WRJames]

So while it may *seem* from the number of victims in the newspaper that there had to be a "ring" of pedophile priests introducing new clergy into their secret club and perpetuating this crime the sad truth is that only a few priests were responsible and they did it all secretly and on their own. The reason there's so many victims is not because there's a whole monastery of pedophiles...but because a handful of pedophiles were transfered from place to place--given new grazing land as it were--and allowed to do what they did unchecked for DECADES.

Do you think the numbers we see in the papers are more than a small fraction of the real total? I suspect we are only still dimly glimpsing what really is going on. As for a pedophile ring -- what I meant to imply is that priests experienced in the required techniques pass on this knowledge -- that these aren't a set of isolated incidents by isolated individuals, but part of a coherent, long standing culture.

 

[WRJames]

Yes, I'm afraid they will. Particularly in families where denial and dysfunction is the norm.

For some, being cast out of the group for speaking out, and considered being a demonic influence and being blamed for being bad and leading the priest astray, or simply not trusting that the child will be believed and it would all be for nothing...to hold on to status and their position? You bet they would.

Mothers cover for fathers who abuse their kids. Kids cover for parents who abuse them. Fathers cover for mothers who abuse them. A priest insinuates themselves into that intimate circle.

Well, would the priests be using the information they gather from confession to pick out the most vulnerable families? Would this information be shared, perhaps, so that a mother's confession might get be passed on to a priest in care of one of her children?

 

[Recidiva]

Well, would the priests be using the information they gather from confession to pick out the most vulnerable families? Would this information be shared, perhaps, so that a mother's confession might get be passed on to a priest in care of one of her children?

I'm afraid conspiracies here are far fetched. It's rare that there will be an outright agreement. This stuff is furtive and mostly just part of a culture of denial. You learn most often from instincts or your molester.

But a predator will also have instincts from birth sometimes. So picking out a target is like a shark picking up the scent of blood in the water.