Category Top Lists; What the Fuck is up with that?

[BreakTheBar]

Hey folks,

This might honestly be more of a Reader question than an Author one, and I know there's a general consensus that the Top Lists for the categories are borked up a tree and back, but...

What the fuck is up with that?

I've been a reader here a long time, probably double my writing history, and it bugs the crap out of me that the Top lists have been broken for so long. They feel completely useless to me as a reader even if I'm testing out a new category that I don't usually dip my toes in. And as an Author it's just even more frustrating because the stories on top of most of the lists don't stand out as particularly great, let alone competitive with the stories that are of the highest quality and have gotten buried.

Was there ever an official statement about the Top Lists that I can't find? And on a related note, I've heard for years about Sweeps but I'm still unsure about what the actually means, and how it's determined, because it feels sort of like it just bellcurves stories with a lot of votes.

Cheers!
~Break.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

The All-time toplists require 100 votes plus a high enough score to be in the top 500.

The 30-days and Last 12 months toplists only require 10 votes to be included.

They seem to work fine? Stories from popular authors will have an advantage at least for the all-time list - I think only a couple of mine have ever got that many votes. The 12 months list tends to have more variety while still representing basic grammatical and storytelling standards - the 30 days can be very erratic.

Not many people seem to find stories via the 12 months toplist, sadly (Registered Interest: I have had a couple dozen stories feature on 12 months toplists, but it hasn't boosted views by more than a dribble).

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm not sure what you mean by broken. They represent majoritarian tastes -- the highest-rated stories that have achieved minimal levels of votes. I can't think of a better way to do it. Can you?

Sweeps are periodic efforts by the Site owners to purge "invalid" votes. How they do this is kept somewhat secret, and people are discouraged from discussing how it's done, for fear that if the method was disclosed some would try to get around it.

 

[PennameWombat]

Hey folks,

This might honestly be more of a Reader question than an Author one, and I know there's a general consensus that the Top Lists for the categories are borked up a tree and back, but...

What the fuck is up with that?

At least to my memory via this forum, the main ‘complaint’ with the top lists is that ‘chaptered’ stories (e.g., “Neverending Story, ch. 65”) are significantly over represented, given that the Top Lists are based purely off votes and ratings. My recollection is that many feel that the only people reading, and thus voting on, these many-chaptered series are the Hardcore True Fans who all tend to vote very high. Because no new reader will start at chapter 65, and anyone who isn’t committed stopped reading long ago.

I've been a reader here a long time, probably double my writing history, and it bugs the crap out of me that the Top lists have been broken for so long. They feel completely useless to me as a reader even if I'm testing out a new category that I don't usually dip my toes in. And as an Author it's just even more frustrating because the stories on top of most of the lists don't stand out as particularly great, let alone competitive with the stories that are of the highest quality and have gotten buried.

Define ‘quality.’ Art is subjective.

Literotica‘s objective measure of ‘quality’ is ratings which derive from votes. How else do you propose to build ’top’ lists? Refer back to my beginning, that chaptered stories skew this because only the hardcore are still voting at chapter 65 (or whatever.) But, votes/ratings are what the site has from which to build these lists. Does this mean ‘quality’ stories don’t make it through this filter? Probably. But it’s a discussion well beyond this forum how and why any piece of art gets noticed or doesn’t.

Was there ever an official statement about the Top Lists that I can't find? And on a related note, I've heard for years about Sweeps but I'm still unsure about what the actually means, and how it's determined, because it feels sort of like it just bellcurves stories with a lot of votes.

Cheers!
~Break.

It’s been discussed on this forum that the site management has stated that top lists will - someday in the indeterminate future - split out ‘standalone’ and ‘chapter’ stories. Opinion seems favourable to this. But they’d still be based on votes and ratings. But, ‘indeterminate future’ is the key…

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm not sure what you mean by top lists, all I see is the best chaptered stories of all time lists.

That sarcasm is well deserved, but to the other points, as far as I can tell they do work, and sweeps happen often there because some of the top stories are always being trolled by fans of other authors and then the author requests a sweep and it goes on and on.

I do recall several years ago some of the lists were broken leaving the same stories at the top with no change for a long stretch of time.

 

[RejectReality]

If, as everyone's guessing, you're talking about chapter stories hogging multiple places on the list: The new series coding has been rolling out in Beta for a little while now. Once the series coding has been tweaked from testing and feedback, one of the things it will allow the site to do is easily show only one entry from any multi-part story on any given toplist. It will show the series card and link to that, opening up potentially several positions in the toplist for other stories/series.

The toplists will then be a much more diverse and useful tool for readers. While there still will be a lot of chapter stories in the lists, the elimination of multiples will cause many one shots to rise to page 1, where they'll get much more recognition. Sci-Fi&Fantasy will be condensed sufficiently that PacoFear's Macallen Promises will finally be back on page 1 where it belongs, for example. By the time you condense an entire toplist in a multi-chapter heavy category like that, it's going to open up a huge number of authors to additional exposure.

The series code ( which has rolled out very smoothly compared to the initial hiccups of other new features ) is a stepping stone to all sorts of things people have been asking for. It's providing data and a code base for a lot of other features to follow.

 

[SimonDoom]

If, as everyone's guessing, you're talking about chapter stories hogging multiple places on the list: The new series coding has been rolling out in Beta for a little while now. Once the series coding has been tweaked from testing and feedback, one of the things it will allow the site to do is easily show only one entry from any multi-part story on any given toplist. It will show the series card and link to that, opening up potentially several positions in the toplist for other stories/series.

The toplists will then be a much more diverse and useful tool for readers. While there still will be a lot of chapter stories in the lists, the elimination of multiples will cause many one shots to rise to page 1, where they'll get much more recognition. Sci-Fi&Fantasy will be condensed sufficiently that PacoFear's Macallen Promises will finally be back on page 1 where it belongs, for example. By the time you condense an entire toplist in a multi-chapter heavy category like that, it's going to open up a huge number of authors to additional exposure.

The series code ( which has rolled out very smoothly compared to the initial hiccups of other new features ) is a stepping stone to all sorts of things people have been asking for. It's providing data and a code base for a lot of other features to follow.

RR, how will the series be scored? Will it use an average score or the highest score that any single chapter received?

Either way, once implemented, this feature will be a big improvement to the lists.

 

[RejectReality]

RR, how will the series be scored? Will it use an average score or the highest score that any single chapter received?

Either way, once implemented, this feature will be a big improvement to the lists.

Laurel said that on the toplists, the whole series will be ranked by the top scoring chapter in that category. It's basically a shortcut, I believe. As the lists are generated, it replaces the first occurrence with the series card, and then skips any additional ones. It's an ease of implementation thing where there's never going to be agreement on how they should be ranked anyway. LOL People would complain loudly and vehemently if you ranked it by an average, or a median, or anything else, so go with the option that makes your job easier.

Still, if they should choose to go with some other ranking methodology in the future, the series coding provides opportunities to store something like an average or median for use in ranking.

 

[SimonDoom]

It will give an advantage to series with many chapters, of course, but it's still such an improvement over the current system that it's a good idea.

 

[RejectReality]

As I always say, extremely long one-shot stories enjoy almost the same level of attrition based score inflation as multi-chapter stories. The site is biased toward long stories scoring highly, and there's not much way to do anything about that without severely discriminating against them.

 

[Voboy]

It’s been discussed on this forum that the site management has stated that top lists will - someday in the indeterminate future - split out ‘standalone’ and ‘chapter’ stories. Opinion seems favourable to this. But they’d still be based on votes and ratings. But, ‘indeterminate future’ is the key…

I hope this happens sooner rather than later, and I say that as the guy who (last month when I checked, anyway) occupied four of the top ten spots on the SF list. Lol. I think that's a ludicrous sign of a broken system; my four stories are four parts of my only significant series. I'm proud of the series and I'm happy it found an audience, but it doesn't need to be clogging four spots on a list that's important to others (if not to me).

In time, it should get better. I agree that that's the main "issue" with the top lists, but then I've never used the top lists as a reader.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I keep reading this like it's a Jerry Seinfeld bit; "And what about those Top Lists?" Whaaaat's up with that? I'd like to know!"

 

[RejectReality]

I hope this happens sooner rather than later, and I say that as the guy who (last month when I checked, anyway) occupied four of the top ten spots on the SF list. Lol. I think that's a ludicrous sign of a broken system; my four stories are four parts of my only significant series. I'm proud of the series and I'm happy it found an audience, but it doesn't need to be clogging four spots on a list that's important to others (if not to me).

In time, it should get better. I agree that that's the main "issue" with the top lists, but then I've never used the top lists as a reader.

I started crusading for this change way back when for the same reason. At the time, the bulk of my work was in Sci-Fi&Fantasy under my Dark pen name, but I knew that appearing on the toplist 3-4 times and pushing others off wasn't ideal. I had a horse in the race, where many others lobbying for change wrote primarily one shots, and faced criticism that they were just thinking about themselves.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I started crusading for this change way back when for the same reason. At the time, the bulk of my work was in Sci-Fi&Fantasy under my Dark pen name, but I knew that appearing on the toplist 3-4 times and pushing others off wasn't ideal. I had a horse in the race, where many others lobbying for change wrote primarily one shots, and faced criticism that they were just thinking about themselves.

At one point I had something like fifteen chapters on the Romance Top List. It was really good for my ego, but was obviously not fair to other writers.

But I felt defensive, because there was so much vitriol about it. It's true that long series generally see higher scores through attraction, but it's unfair to assume that they don't deserve those scores. I recently reread a good part of my longest series, and there is no doubt that my writing improved as I gained more experience.

I'm good with the proposed plan to limit series to one entry per top list, whether it uses highest score or average. In the long run, it is probably beneficial to me, as I have several works that are not on the top lists now, that may well be under a new system. We shouldn't be looking at this through a paradigm of winners and losers.

 

[BreakTheBar]

Thanks for the responses all.

I'm actually not talking about the Series issue, which I understand why people would be annoyed by that sort of thing if all they write is shorts. For me the series/long story issue is understandable because of the nature of Fandom - I can absolutely see limiting a Series to only it's highest ranked chapter appearing on the current lists, or the Series top list some of you have been mentioning.

Maybe what I'm frustrated by is the natural attrition of time. I just look at a mid-sized category like Group and see in the past 5 or so years the entire Toplist has been replaced wholesale, which doesn't make sense to me unless it's a bell curving effect. You would think even if new stories are able to rise up, you would still see some of the previous Tops showing up. Five of the top 10 All-time stories are from 2022, which seems super implausible. But even more than that, the Top All-Time list presented on the main page of the category is different from the Top All-Time list if you click to see more.

That sarcasm is well deserved, but to the other points, as far as I can tell they do work, and sweeps happen often there because some of the top stories are always being trolled by fans of other authors and then the author requests a sweep and it goes on and on.

Wait, do sweeps happen automatically, or only by request?

I keep reading this like it's a Jerry Seinfeld bit; "And what about those Top Lists?" Whaaaat's up with that? I'd like to know!"

That's pretty much how I was saying it, hahaha.

 

[Voboy]

Wait, do sweeps happen automatically, or only by request?

Yes.

 

[RejectReality]

Thanks for the responses all.

I'm actually not talking about the Series issue, which I understand why people would be annoyed by that sort of thing if all they write is shorts. For me the series/long story issue is understandable because of the nature of Fandom - I can absolutely see limiting a Series to only it's highest ranked chapter appearing on the current lists, or the Series top list some of you have been mentioning.

Maybe what I'm frustrated by is the natural attrition of time. I just look at a mid-sized category like Group and see in the past 5 or so years the entire Toplist has been replaced wholesale, which doesn't make sense to me unless it's a bell curving effect. You would think even if new stories are able to rise up, you would still see some of the previous Tops showing up. Five of the top 10 All-time stories are from 2022, which seems super implausible. But even more than that, the Top All-Time list presented on the main page of the category is different from the Top All-Time list if you click to see more.



Wait, do sweeps happen automatically, or only by request?



That's pretty much how I was saying it, hahaha.

Knocking down series to a single entry will cause a lot of long-time favorites to bubble back to the top in the individual category lists. Scores also tend to slowly dribble downward as time goes on, because stories on the toplist are above 4.0. Any vote less than 5 is a knock on the score. That causes newer stories that are front-loaded with fan votes ( especially chapter stories ) to hold higher scores. As time goes on and more regular schmoes find them, that score gets chipped away at, and newer stories climb above them.

Sweeps happen for a variety of reasons. The ones that cut the deepest are contest sweeps. Whenever a themed contest or the monthly awards are decided, there will be a site-wide culling of votes deemed illegitimate. That's true of all sweeps. While they're targeted to a certain category/timeframe/contest, it's apparent that any bad behavior detected also removes votes from stories outside the initial, more narrow target.

Sweeps also happen to clean up the toplists, ( lots of shenanigans there with the fanbases boosting their favorites and slamming competitors ) as regular maintenance, and when specifically requested by a user.

 

[jsmiam]

…Maybe what I'm frustrated by is the natural attrition of time. I just look at a mid-sized category like Group and see in the past 5 or so years the entire Toplist has been replaced wholesale, which doesn't make sense to me unless it's a bell curving effect. You would think even if new stories are able to rise up, you would still see some of the previous Tops showing up. Five of the top 10 All-time stories are from 2022, which seems super implausible.

Time passes. More newer users cumulatively than older. More people mistakenly skipping 10 and 20 year old stories thinking they’re outdated. Next year it’ll be 2023 stories, not 2022.

I’m not saying it’s perfect in every way, but it’s not entirely broken either. It’s hard to stop time from passing

But even more than that, the Top All-Time list presented on the main page of the category is different from the Top All-Time list if you click to see more.

This has a much simpler answer. There’s no date or score minimum (or it’s negligible) on the initial/main page vs the three categories once you click “see more”. So THAT list is swayed heavily and moment by moment by brand new stories.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

30 days top lists do not require even 10 votes per story. For example, the two top stories in Sci-fi for last 30 days have 9 and 7 votes respectively. The top story in Sci-fi in the last 12 months has a total of 13 votes. Both facts are completely ridiculous of course. Maybe those are all masterpieces, but I feel the number of votes still very much counts. As mentioned, the alltime top lists require more votes so the situation is better there, yet the system really isn't working as intended. All it takes is getting some troll 2* and bye bye. So yeah, as it is now, those lists are kinda misleading.

 

[SimonDoom]

It's true that long series generally see higher scores through attraction, but it's unfair to assume that they don't deserve those scores.

It's not so much that they don't "deserve" the scores, it's just that the score of Chapter 24 of a series cannot meaningfully be compared with the score of a standalone story, because of the (very significant) impact of attrition on the score. It's apples and oranges.
I think the upcoming system will be a not-perfect but satisfactory solution.

 

[SimonDoom]

Maybe what I'm frustrated by is the natural attrition of time. I just look at a mid-sized category like Group and see in the past 5 or so years the entire Toplist has been replaced wholesale, which doesn't make sense to me unless it's a bell curving effect. You would think even if new stories are able to rise up, you would still see some of the previous Tops showing up. Five of the top 10 All-time stories are from 2022, which seems super implausible. But even more than that, the Top All-Time list presented on the main page of the category is different from the Top All-Time list if you click to see more.

Whenever these discussions of toplists come up, I think it's useful to step back and consider that toplists exist for readers, not authors. The ego-stroking is nice, but the real purpose of a toplist is to convey information to readers so they can decide what stories to read.

I've noticed that more recent stories disproportionately populate other category toplists as well, and I don't know why that is. It might just be that over time scores tend to drop, or perhaps sweeps have been more aggressive with more recent stories. From the readers' standpoint, I don't see a problem. It means fresh stories are constantly rising to levels of visibility, and that's a good thing for readers.

I also think authors fret too much about how high their scores are and whether they are on toplists. I've had some stories do very well in terms of views, favorites, and comments without so much as sniffing a toplist. My most-viewed stories are not my highest-rated.

 

[KeithD]

Whenever these discussions of toplists come up, I think it's useful to step back and consider that toplists exist for readers, not authors. The ego-stroking is nice, but the real purpose of a toplist is to convey information to readers so they can decide what stories to read.

I've noticed that more recent stories disproportionately populate other category toplists as well, and I don't know why that is. It might just be that over time scores tend to drop, or perhaps sweeps have been more aggressive with more recent stories. From the readers' standpoint, I don't see a problem. It means fresh stories are constantly rising to levels of visibility, and that's a good thing for readers.

I also think authors fret too much about how high their scores are and whether they are on toplists. I've had some stories do very well in terms of views, favorites, and comments without so much as sniffing a toplist. My most-viewed stories are not my highest-rated.

I agree the top lists are meant to help readers. That said, it's even more idiotic that they include separate chapters of a serial work. Few readers are going to want to jump in on chapter eleven of the work. Until/unless something is worked out to include chaptered works only once and only when completed in such lists, they aren't much help to readers as long as isolated chapters are dominating the lists.

 

[jsmiam]

I like my “pretend bookstore” analogy for lots of our frequent discussions.

A vote is when someone bought your book. A comment is a review in the New York Times. A follower is someone who shows up to your book signing. Making a top list is like being on a best seller list. A copycat is like creating a fan fiction universe. Or being plagiarized.

But back to series. A successful series does get somewhat more physical shelf space than a non series in a physical world bookstore. But in the physical world, many of those extra copies are in the storeroom, and kept restocked on the shelves by employees, rather than letting the physical space be absolutely overwhelmed the way lit’s top lists get overwhelmed.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

It's not so much that they don't "deserve" the scores, it's just that the score of Chapter 24 of a series cannot meaningfully be compared with the score of a standalone story, because of the (very significant) impact of attrition on the score. It's apples and oranges.
I think the upcoming system will be a not-perfect but satisfactory solution.

I agree with your point, yet there is more to it. The same thing can be said about shorter/medium size stories vs really long stories, as it also comes down to attrition and only those really invested stick to the end and eventually likely give a 5*. It is oranges and apples for sure. I'd say the ranking should be split among short/medium size stories, long stories, and chaptered stories.

 

[RejectReality]

I agree with your point, yet there is more to it. The same thing can be said about shorter/medium size stories vs really long stories, as it also comes down to attrition and only those really invested stick to the end and eventually likely give a 5*. It is oranges and apples for sure. I'd say the ranking should be split among short/medium size stories, long stories, and chaptered stories.

Ideally, but that's crazy-town hopes and dreams with the amount of additional work it would require.

It would certainly make the toplists a great deal more meaningful, and provide an excellent selection criteria for readers... But like I said, crazy town. LOL