Category Question...

[madelinemasoch]

Do yourself a favor and don't read this post if you're a Cuckold Camp fan.

So, I have a dark and twisted idea for my cuckold series. The next chapter will take a twist and a turn away from the usual material in the series. Basically, without being too spoilery just in case, there is a non-consensual sexual scenario between two of the characters. I haven't yet decided if it actually follows through and happens before another character stops him, but if it does, I'll have another question.

So first of all with that one: Is the NC/R category only for stories in which the victim ends up enjoying it? This would not be that kind of story.

Most of the series is in BDSM (despite the possibility it would've done better in Fetish (I'm not switching now, it's too late)). One chapter is in Group Sex because there's no domme stuff in it.

The rest of the upcoming chapter in question is just your regular BBC fucking. Eleanor isn't enjoying it as much as she usually would be, but it's alright with her. I thought this would add thematic consistency if it ends up fitting in NC/R, but would those readers be disappointed by that??

The other option besides BDSM and NC/R would be Trans. The victim character is trans. Would this be good subversion of that category, because she doesn't want to get fucked in the ass like most of those stories are about? Or would it just not belong there? I'm at a loss when it comes to categorizing it.

The problem with just posting it to the usual BDSM is the obvious consent breach in that the character will at the very least end up making the other character uncomfortable in a visceral sexual way, and at the most actually r-word her. Whatever advice anyone may have on which category it fits into will influence my choice between the two.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

So first of all with that one: Is the NC/R category only for stories in which the victim ends up enjoying it? This would not be that kind of story.

Most of the series is in BDSM (despite the possibility it would've done better in Fetish (I'm not switching now, it's too late)). One chapter is in Group Sex because there's no domme stuff in it.

The rest of the upcoming chapter in question is just your regular BBC fucking. Eleanor isn't enjoying it as much as she usually would be, but it's alright with her. I thought this would add thematic consistency if it ends up fitting in NC/R, but would those readers be disappointed by that??

The other option besides BDSM and NC/R would be Trans. The victim character is trans. Would this be good subversion of that category, because she doesn't want to get fucked in the ass like most of those stories are about? Or would it just not belong there? I'm at a loss when it comes to categorizing it.

The problem with just posting it to the usual BDSM is the obvious consent breach in that the character will at the very least end up making the other character uncomfortable in a visceral sexual way, and at the most actually r-word her. Whatever advice anyone may have on which category it fits into will influence my choice between the two.

NC/R where the "victim" receives no pleasure/doesn't enjoy themselves is banned on Literotica.

You can find this in the "Content Guidelines."

 

[MediocreAuthor]

You can read this in the Content Guidelines

To that end, we DO NOT publish works of any type featuring the following content:

• Ravishment/non-consent fantasies in which the “victim” receives no thrill or enjoyment from the acts, or is seriously and/or permanently physically harmed/abused/maimed/killed.

 

[madelinemasoch]

You can read this in the Content Guidelines

To that end, we DO NOT publish works of any type featuring the following content:

• Ravishment/non-consent fantasies in which the “victim” receives no thrill or enjoyment from the acts, or is seriously and/or permanently physically harmed/abused/maimed/killed.

That helps, to the extent that the upcoming scene won't continue long enough to go to actual penetration, as that would be banned. Does not help me decide which category it'll go in.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

That helps, to the extent that the upcoming scene won't continue long enough to go to actual penetration, as that would be banned. Does not help me decide which category it'll go in.

If there is no penetration, I would keep it in whatever category it started in, and add a tag which warns about the change.

If you think that isn't enough, you can always add a content warning at the start

 

[madelinemasoch]

If there is no penetration, I would keep it in whatever category it started in, and add a tag which warns about the change.

If you think that isn't enough, you can always add a content warning at the start

The issue is the usual category is BDSM and there really isn't much of that in the chapter in question.

 

[John_Vandermeer]

The issue is the usual category is BDSM and there really isn't much of that in the chapter in question.

I think you started a thread about categories just a bit back. Based on your description there, NC/R and Fetish are categories you should consider for some of your stories/chapters. Though I have no experience with the theme or category, if trans characters feature prominently in your stories perhaps TC. I imagine many in NC/R (a little bit of a caveman hangout) would not take kindly to finding a trans character being the MC. If enough kinks and fetishes are piled in, perhaps Fetish is your only real option.

 

[madelinemasoch]

I think you started a thread about categories just a bit back. Based on your description there, NC/R and Fetish are categories you should consider for some of your stories/chapters. Though I have no experience with the theme or category, if trans characters feature prominently in your stories perhaps TC. I imagine many in NC/R (a little bit of a caveman hangout) would not take kindly to finding a trans character being the MC. If enough kinks and fetishes are piled in, perhaps Fetish is your only real option.

Okay, well help me sort this out, if you would. I read on the forums that readers hate when you change main category for a serial chapter story midway through, because it makes the newer chapters harder to find. So, I don't think I'm going to just switch to Fetish. It could hurt the readership.

The chapter in question might not even fit Fetish, or NC/R, as it's not your standard NC/R story (it's not a pseudo-rword that someone enjoys, and now knowing that I can't make it a real rword, it won't be that either).

Also, my trans characters feature in a non-traditional way. I'm wondering if the chapter in question would fit as a subversion of that category (because I hate the gay anal stuff and so does the character) ... but there's also the beginning, where it's a bunch of cis white women fucking black guys.

 

[John_Vandermeer]

Okay, well help me sort this out, if you would. I read on the forums that readers hate when you change main category for a serial chapter story midway through, because it makes the newer chapters harder to find. So, I don't think I'm going to just switch to Fetish. It could hurt the readership.

The chapter in question might not even fit Fetish, or NC/R, as it's not your standard NC/R story (it's not a pseudo-rword that someone enjoys, and now knowing that I can't make it a real rword, it won't be that either).

Also, my trans characters feature in a non-traditional way. I'm wondering if the chapter in question would fit as a subversion of that category (because I hate the gay anal stuff and so does the character) ... but there's also the beginning, where it's a bunch of cis white women fucking black guys.

I cant decide for you, you know your story. But I would advise against feeling locked out of a specific category because you started the series in another one. Some people switch midway and never go back. Some people switch once and then go back. Some people go all over the place and do not give a damn. I have two series that have alternated BDSM and Fetish every chapter and no reader has complained, nor has readership dropped unusually. I have an I/T only series that has dropped more readers per chapter, as slowly the lily vanilla I/T readership has realized there is more femdom cruelty in there than they can stomach. As a hetero cis writer/reader myself though, I do realize many readers want to know if there will be any none hetero/cis stuff in there, so they can chose not to read. Many of the GM writers here will tell you how hostile the reception to gay stories is outside of GM, for example. And hey, I am one that is as comfortable with NC/R as I am with I/T, even putting them together, two pretty prominent squicks for many, so I get the frustration. In short, my advice is do not feel tied down, and chose the best category for the chapter or the story going forward. And a second observation is a subversion is perhaps better than a theme that does not belong at all. The argument can be made, there is so much NC/R maledom, NC/R femdom is a subversion of the category. Still, femdom can do quite well in NC/R. As an example.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

If the author is confused over which category a story should go in, imagine how readers will feel.

Ask yourself, "WWARWD?" (What Would A Real Writer Do).

Imagine the completed story being placed into a library that allowed the particular content. Where would the story be placed as a whole body of work? Would the writer rip apart the binding and place loose pages on different shelves and expect readers to hunt them down?

Just because a site like Literotica allows for chapters of a story (differentiated from a series of separate stand-alone stories) to be strewn across multiple categories doesn't mean that it is ever the RIGHT thing to do.

IMO, nothing spells amateurish more than doing so.

 

[SimonDoom]

Is "Cuckold Camp" anything like "Band Camp?" Minus the flutes?

 

[ElectricBlue]

If the story is compelling, readers will follow the story, regardless of category. It seems to me the OP is over-thinking the categories, under-thinking her own story.

Apply the SimonDoom test - what's the over-arching theme of the whole story? That's the category it should go in, regardless whether or not individual chapters wander elsewhere. Category hopping satisfies nobody, really, so why bother?

 

[madelinemasoch]

If the author is confused over which category a story should go in, imagine how readers will feel.

Ask yourself, "WWARWD?" (What Would A Real Writer Do).

Imagine the completed story being placed into a library that allowed the particular content. Where would the story be placed as a whole body of work? Would the writer rip apart the binding and place loose pages on different shelves and expect readers to hunt them down?

Just because a site like Literotica allows for chapters of a story (differentiated from a series of separate stand-alone stories) to be strewn across multiple categories doesn't mean that it is ever the RIGHT thing to do.

IMO, nothing spells amateurish more than doing so.

...Why? Because Literotica isn't a physical library? What exactly is your passionate reproach to category-hopping based on but an older technology? Libraries aren't relevant until/unless the book is finished, printed into physical copies, and published... and that's only if they allow erotica in the library. You're just being rude.

 

[SimonDoom]

If the author is confused over which category a story should go in, imagine how readers will feel.

Ask yourself, "WWARWD?" (What Would A Real Writer Do).

Imagine the completed story being placed into a library that allowed the particular content. Where would the story be placed as a whole body of work? Would the writer rip apart the binding and place loose pages on different shelves and expect readers to hunt them down?

Just because a site like Literotica allows for chapters of a story (differentiated from a series of separate stand-alone stories) to be strewn across multiple categories doesn't mean that it is ever the RIGHT thing to do.

IMO, nothing spells amateurish more than doing so.

I don't think you can state it this strongly, as an absolute rule. The right answer, as with respect to almost everything, is it depends.

What if you have a story where you set it up early on that the MC is going to experiment with a wide variety of sexual kinks. Then it might very well be appropriate for each chapter to be posted in a different category.

This isn't something I personally do. My habit is to post every single chapter in a series in the same category, but that's largely the product of my way of approaching erotica. I like an erotic story to have a clear erotic focus. It's more enjoyable that way for me as both a writer and as a reader. But some may disagree, making the decision a more complicated one.

I WOULD suggest to the OP looking closely at the story to see if there's a good way of tightening up the erotic focus somewhat, because to me, as described, the story seems like it's all over the map and lacks focus. What's the MAIN idea? I can't tell from the description.

Once you've done that, re-read Tx Tall Tales "Love Your Readers: Categories" how to article regarding the hierarchy of categories. Some will "trump" others, meaning, if it's got substantial non-con, that's probably where it's going to go whether you want it to or not.

So my recommendation would be:

1. Refine the main erotic focus of the story.
2. What are the possible legitimate categories.
3. Figure out if "trump categories" apply.
4. If you have a choice, which category has the most readers?
5. Where do you think the largest pool of readers who will probably enjoy the story will be? This is different from asking where it will get the highest score.

 

[John_Vandermeer]

I don't think you can state it this strongly, as an absolute rule. The right answer, as with respect to almost everything, is it depends.

What if you have a story where you set it up early on that the MC is going to experiment with a wide variety of sexual kinks. Then it might very well be appropriate for each chapter to be posted in a different category.

This isn't something I personally do. My habit is to post every single chapter in a series in the same category, but that's largely the product of my way of approaching erotica. I like an erotic story to have a clear erotic focus. It's more enjoyable that way for me as both a writer and as a reader. But some may disagree, making the decision a more complicated one.

I WOULD suggest to the OP looking closely at the story to see if there's a good way of tightening up the erotic focus somewhat, because to me, as described, the story seems like it's all over the map and lacks focus. What's the MAIN idea? I can't tell from the description.

Once you've done that, re-read Tx Tall Tales "Love Your Readers: Categories" how to article regarding the hierarchy of categories. Some will "trump" others, meaning, if it's got substantial non-con, that's probably where it's going to go whether you want it to or not.

So my recommendation would be:

1. Refine the main erotic focus of the story.
2. What are the possible legitimate categories.
3. Figure out if "trump categories" apply.
4. If you have a choice, which category has the most readers?
5. Where do you think the largest pool of readers who will probably enjoy the story will be? This is different from asking where it will get the highest score.

I would strongly advise against taking "Love Your Readers: Categories" too seriously. I have read it. Very carefully. A couple of times. Some of the advice there will get your stories obliterated unless you consider the full picture. The main example I can think of is incest is considered a "trump" category. False. Unless your story is a lily vanilla romcom, I/T will be very harsh. It certainly will be very harsh if there is any meaningful kink, or, I suspect if there is non-traditional sexual orientation or identity. So again, @madelinemasoch, I advise caution on some of this "Lit elder" advice. I certainly think @BobbyBrandt is flat out wrong on this one. But he is entitled to his opinion.

 

[John_Vandermeer]

Ok, @madelinemasoch, there is this parallel thread about using intros vs not using intros and I see the same thing going on. Some people say they use it sometimes, some people say the never use, and some sound like a theocratic morality police, and say if you ever use intros there must be something wrong with you and your writing. Whenever you hear that kind of tone, feel free to disregard out of hand. It is too radica and dogmatic a position to be right. Similarly with category switching.

 

[SimonDoom]

I would strongly advise against taking "Love Your Readers: Categories" too seriously. I have read it. Very carefully. A couple of times. Some of the advice there will get your stories obliterated unless you consider the full picture. The main example I can think of is incest is considered a "trump" category. False. Unless your story is a lily vanilla romcom, I/T will be very harsh. It certainly will be very harsh if there is any meaningful kink, or, I suspect if there is non-traditional sexual orientation or identity. So again, @madelinemasoch, I advise caution on some of this "Lit elder" advice. I certainly think @BobbyBrandt is flat our wrong on this one. But he is entitled to his opinion.

Nothing is fool-proof or should be taken as gospel, admittedly, but there are three problems with this advice.

First, there's some evidence that I/T is a trump in the sense that the Site will put it there even if you don't want to. The Site reserves the right to do that. When the author of the article calls certain categories "trumps," that's part of what he means. The Site has the right to do what it wants to with your story to match it with what IT deems to be the most appropriate readership.

Second, while it's true that I/T readers are often very squicky and dislike other category subjects (I've experienced that personally), the converse may be even more true: many readers of other categories absolutely despise and are squicked by incest, and don't want anything to do with it. You'll get comments that you should have put the story in incest. There are a very few categories, like Sci Fi, that are not quite like this, and are more open-minded, but most categories are not like this when it comes to "trump" categories.

Third, I/T has by far the biggest readership. If your story has a substantial degree of incest, then that almost certainly is the right category for it regardless of what other kinks it features, because it is in I/T that it will have the largest appreciative readership, even if it also has readers who get squicked by anything other than incest and leave you a few nasty comments.

I've published 58 stories in nearly seven years and have consistently followed the advice of that article, with good results. I've had some incest stories with elements of anal and BDSM, for example, but those stories did much better in the I/T category than they would have done elsewhere.

The trickiest categories, I think, are Non-con and Loving Waves, both of which the OP is interested in, and the best advice for which I can give may simply be: good luck.

 

[AchtungNight]

I would back the above advice from Simon Doom & John Vandermeer. I will also add this.

Regarding Celebrities, I came here from a site where fanfics were more prevalent and separated by fandom (show, artist, video game, etc). I got into the mindset that if a certain fandom lacked adult fanfic, certain fans of that fandom (myself included) might be entertained by such fanfic. So I wrote fanfics for such fandoms and did not think about the risks of trolls not liking my work or how they can sometimes make me feel. If a fandom entertained me and I could get turned on by an adult fanfic set within its environment (this includes adult video games, comics, fictional Hollywood swinging, etc), I would try to write that fanfic. If I am comfortable with the results of my writing, I post them, damn the trolls’ torpedos.

I do the same thing writing about certain kinks- I’m not necessarily into such things IRL for various reasons, but I have in the past enjoyed exploring my limits as a writer and whether I can write a character who might be into something I’m not. The consequences of a vivid imagination and a need to inspire people. If I’m entertained by my work, I put it out. Damn trolls’ torpedoes. Smart people should know I’m not necessarily into the stuff I write, right?

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I don't think you can state it this strongly, as an absolute rule. The right answer, as with respect to almost everything, is it depends.

The only thing that it "depends" on is whether you are submitting your chapters on Literotica or someplace that doesn't embrace the practice of using multiple categories for the same overall body of work.

Without trying to be the "theocdratic police" on the subject, from any logical, or practical literary perspective, the complete body of work is what gets categorized. The only exception to this might be in a serialized presentation of stand alone vignettes that eventually create the completed body of work.

Ignoring the "Lit" component of this site to post willy-nilly without regard for the reader's experience or the slightest attempt at producing something that might be suitable for publishing anywhere other than Literotica is disconcerting for me, and should be for any other author who appreciates quality work. Using multiple categories for a single story smacks of disorganized, amateurish, impatient writing, and a total disregard for the readers in favor of trying to garner higher stats.

 

[John_Vandermeer]

Nothing is fool-proof or should be taken as gospel, admittedly, but there are three problems with this advice.

First, there's some evidence that I/T is a trump in the sense that the Site will put it there even if you don't want to. The Site reserves the right to do that. When the author of the article calls certain categories "trumps," that's part of what he means. The Site has the right to do what it wants to with your story to match it with what IT deems to be the most appropriate readership.

Second, while it's true that I/T readers are often very squicky and dislike other category subjects (I've experienced that personally), the converse may be even more true: many readers of other categories absolutely despise and are squicked by incest, and don't want anything to do with it. You'll get comments that you should have put the story in incest. There are a very few categories, like Sci Fi, that are not quite like this, and are more open-minded, but most categories are not like this when it comes to "trump" categories.

Third, I/T has by far the biggest readership. If your story has a substantial degree of incest, then that almost certainly is the right category for it regardless of what other kinks it features, because it is in I/T that it will have the largest appreciative readership, even if it also has readers who get squicked by anything other than incest and leave you a few nasty comments.

I've published 58 stories in nearly seven years and have consistently followed the advice of that article, with good results. I've had some incest stories with elements of anal and BDSM, for example, but those stories did much better in the I/T category than they would have done elsewhere.

The trickiest categories, I think, are Non-con and Loving Waves, both of which the OP is interested in, and the best advice for which I can give may simply be: good luck.

I am confident that @SimonDoom means well, and that he does genuinely seek to base his advice on logic and evidence. But again, a lot of what is written above is not true, in my experience at least. The most relevant experience would be an aggregated ensemble of all authors' experiences. But that data, as far as I know, has not been collected. In my experience, based on my writing, you can put an incest story anywhere you want. And it will be best received where the overall fit is best, even after the fact that I/T is one of the two monster categories of Lit. I have written three incest stories, all of them with a femdom--hence kink-theme. They are a:

Daughter-Father femdom story, published in six chapters alternating between BDSM and Fetish. I did not even know there was an "incest only belongs in I/T" rule because all six chapters went through without a delay or glitch. Good ratio of appeciative vs non-apprecitive comments and decent scores (for me).

Sister-Brother femdom story, half published so far but four chapters all in I/T. A worse ratio of appreciate to non-appreciative comments, and a lower score, even though it is milder femdom than the previous. I learned the hard way the I/T audience does not take kindly to erotic humiliation and denial. But this is the kicker, lower readership in first chapter and faster drop off in successive chapters than the previous story.

Mother-Son femdom story, single chapter long short-story in Fetish. Great appreciative vs non-appreciative comment ratio and good score. Plenty of requests to continue with sequels. When published Laurel did reclassify as I/T, but I interrupted it, and resubmitted with note. Said I expected it to be obliterated in I/T since it was my harshest incest femdom to date, and she ended up publishing in Fetish as I requested. I think I have a single "this is not a mother, this is a monster, 1*" comment. But I certainly expect that to have been the majority had it gone to I/T. If nothing else, because of its heavy noncon vibes.

So... again. I would not take the advice of the aforemention essay on categories as more than a piece of input. I would certainly absolutely not take it as gospel.

 

[alohadave]

The only thing that it "depends" on is whether you are submitting your chapters on Literotica or someplace that doesn't embrace the practice of using multiple categories for the same overall body of work.

Without trying to be the "theocdratic police" on the subject, from any logical, or practical literary perspective, the complete body of work is what gets categorized. The only exception to this might be in a serialized presentation of stand alone vignettes that eventually create the completed body of work.

Ignoring the "Lit" component of this site to post willy-nilly without regard for the reader's experience or the slightest attempt at producing something that might be suitable for publishing anywhere other than Literotica is disconcerting for me, and should be for any other author who appreciates quality work. Using multiple categories for a single story smacks of disorganized, amateurish, impatient writing, and a total disregard for the readers in favor of trying to garner higher stats.

When people ask about posting somewhere else, we can take that into consideration. Here, at Literotica, you can break them up and post in different categories.

You get all bunched up about how other places do it, when people asking in this forum are generally asking about posting at Literotica.

 

[John_Vandermeer]

A co-author seeks advice on a certain subject, only to receive an unexpected venomous and rude rebuke. It's truly inconceivable how some people use this platform to vent all the frustration from their miserable lives.

Are you trying to enforce a monopoly on making others feel poorly about themselves?

 

[BobbyBrandt]

When people ask about posting somewhere else, we can take that into consideration. Here, at Literotica, you can break them up and post in different categories.

You get all bunched up about how other places do it, when people asking in this forum are generally asking about posting at Literotica.

If you are implying that advice requested, and advice given in this forum applies only to the skills of authors posting here, then I accept that.

It stiil doesn't speak to advocating for the advancement of the "Lit" aspect of the site.

 

[RejectReality]

Category hopping rarely serves the author or readers.

Readers are tribal, and not a small percentage are lazy. They stick to their preferred categories and don't wander, because there's an infinite supply of their kink for the most part. There's no need to go chasing a story that's wandering outside their interests. Some new story will scratch that itch without the need to wander outside their comfort zone. A good enough story and/or a good enough track record will drag some along, but you're always going to leave behind a huge chunk who just can't be bothered.

Venturing from a lower readership category to a higher one likewise doesn't mean you'll bring those new readers ( assuming they'll even look at a middle chapter of a story that begins outside their preferred category ) back with you when the story goes "home".

The most common result of category hopping is an increase in the bleeding all multi-part stories suffer.

When you wander into Incest, GM, and Non-Con, that risk spikes.

The reason Incest, GM, and Non-Con are trump categories is because putting those elements in any other category carries a huge risk of alienating a significant portion of the readership. Some categories are less judgmental than others, but you're always going to take a hit. Incest and Non-Con are also subject to more scrutiny, because those generate the most complaints arriving on Laurel's desk. Apparently, people are more likely to take out their anger on the author than complain to the site about GM, because it hasn't been subject to the same level of category choices being overridden as the other two.

If your story simply ranges too far to be encapsulated by any mainstream category, and you don't want to take the hit of relative obscurity that comes with Novels & Novellas, it may be the only viable option to present the story you want to tell.

But it should be the last option IMO.

 

[madelinemasoch]

Update: the chapter got approved. It was originally in T&C, but it got moved to Fetish (in spite of every other chapter besides the Group Sex one being in BDSM).

Doesn't seem like the webmasters care about category-hopping.