Category Changes Happened

[Britva415]

The thing about separating "Vengeful Husbands" from "Loving Wives" is it won't change the reactions to stories appropriately in Loving Wives.

 

[Britva415]

Just curious, but what other allowable subjects are there that would belong under Taboo that wouldn’t just as easily fit in Fetish?

I think "at work" is one great example of a taboo that isn't necessarily a fetish or incest.

On the ground, though, most "at work" stories around here don't seem to really lean in to the taboo of it.

 

[iwatchus]

The thing about separating "Vengeful Husbands" from "Loving Wives" is it won't change the reactions to stories appropriately in Loving Wives.

True. But I was hoping to see non-BTB, non-monogamy stories allowed to flourish. IMO, that cesspit just needs to be bulldozed over, like a landfill reaching its capacity, but the trolls would all slither out into other categories then.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

If you are proposing this as a way to avoid hostile negative remarks, I'm quite sure you would be disappointed.
I believe there is a large group of readers that would flock to both categories and spew their vitriol at all stories as they do not see a fundamental difference between the two proposed categories.
I have seen many remarks about consensual non-monogamy stories claiming that the women in these stories are (put in the derogatory names of your choice) and that the marriages are doomed, no matter what.

No, I'm proposing it because the category is quite large and that is a great way to divide it up. Each category has a recent 25 list. If the category is so busy that stories don't stay on that recent 25 list for more than a day or two, it should probably be split up. There are more than enough stories of each kind to warrant their own categories.

 

[TheLobster]

I get poly stuff is super niche. I don't expect a category. But if you're going to attempt to segment those things from LW then why would you not just broaden that to the whole ENM umbrella?

That's a general problem with proliferating more and more categories: you just never get enough.

Instead making more of them, which is just slapping a band-aid over a bleeding wound of abysmal discoverability, we need a stronger tagging system and a way to subscribe to tags. Then we could actually start removing categories, not adding them.

 

[filthytrancendence]

That's a general problem with proliferating more and more categories: you just never get enough.

Instead making more of them, which is just slapping a band-aid over a bleeding wound of abysmal discoverability, we need a stronger tagging system and a way to subscribe to tags. Then we could actually start removing categories, not adding them.

I agree in the abstract. And mostly this is what I was trying to point out, but didn't really finish saying, so thank you. No matter what you do, somebody's going to have a valid reason to either shrink or broaden one category or another.

Problem is that the categories, for better or worse, are such a pillar of the site design and how it works, a change like that could easily just break the whole UX. I imagine that's why we see occasional nudges in the right direction, rather than a radical re-thinking of how the whole place is organized.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

That's a general problem with proliferating more and more categories: you just never get enough.

Instead making more of them, which is just slapping a band-aid over a bleeding wound of abysmal discoverability, we need a stronger tagging system and a way to subscribe to tags. Then we could actually start removing categories, not adding them.

That would probably be the best direction the site could take to make the system more robust. The critical point is the tagging system. The present tag system obviously isn't good enough for such a solution. And there is also AO3 as a lesson on how not to tag. Every time I browse that site I can't help wondering what the fuck were they thinking?

 

[TheLobster]

Every time I browse that site I can't help wondering what the fuck were they thinking?

I once went to AO3, just to see what the hubbub was about. Then I realized that in order to find anything interesting, I'd have to fill out a form that's only a tad shorter than a moderately complicated tax return.

Needless to say, I did not come back.

 

[iwatchus]

That's a general problem with proliferating more and more categories: you just never get enough.

Instead making more of them, which is just slapping a band-aid over a bleeding wound of abysmal discoverability, we need a stronger tagging system and a way to subscribe to tags. Then we could actually start removing categories, not adding them.

Although it can work, uncategorized shared tagging is hard as an organizational structure. Mostly you end up with certain tags being used as standing categories.

We have a whole slew of new problems to cope with. I know to expect different ratings, different engagements based on category that I submit a story in. While the unevenness of ratings may be unfair for contests, it is otherwise a positive. The categories themselves become hubs for communities to build around.

I think the category system could work easily with up to another half dozen categories. More than enough to address the loudest complaints at the current time.

The multitude of tags already in use is too many to build workable communities. Each community would be spread too thin. It is a balancing act between creating a critical mass and keeping the communities relatively homogenous (or at least friendly to each other's differences -- LW I am looking at you.)

Not too mention it would take a complete rework of the interface and a massive migration effort to deal with the untagged stories.

 

[crookedletter]

Not too mention it would take a complete rework of the interface and a massive migration effort to deal with the untagged stories.

Unless the existing categories were added as tags, and tagged to any stories within them. You could still have a front page with the default or most popular tags -- i.e. more or less what you have now -- but you'd be able to tag multiple, or skip the big ones and go custom (at the risk of smaller readership).

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

You sinner.

Still don't get why you would need a ruler for religious education. Candles and ropes on the other hand...

Riding crops and flails are a bit too obvious, I guess.

 

[Bamagan]

As a purely hypothetical exercise...
Any redesign of the category/tagging system here would, at minimum, need to have three characteristics to justify its implementation: improved filtering, searchability, and/or suggested results for readers, a reasonable balance between expanded reach and extra effort on the part of the authors for classifying their works, and not requiring massive reorganization of the vast database of existing stories.
For me, the biggest sticking point will be the 'reasonable balance' part of it from authors. Some choose not to use tags, considering them to be spoilers (for example). A problem many report is that it can be hard to pick good ones, even when we're only allowed ten. It's possible that incorporating some suggested tags and making them easy to add when submitting a story could ease that issue. It might even be possible to generate some suggestions based on keywords in the story; for example, if the work has a high volume of the word dick/cock/wang/pecker/etc., the submission form could offer* blowjobs, oral sex, and perhaps penis envy (or obsession) as potentially relevant tags, and the author could click on those if they agree.
I think I'd add a few default checklists with significant options that wouldn't count against the limit. Codes like FF, MF, MM and variations would be one such field; check the box for any that apply. Cases could be made for others, especially broad ones like BDSM. The 'legacy' categories could be treated as meta-lists and allow following/subscription.

And now the thread can shift fully to people outlining why they think their preferred reorganizational scheme is the only one that would work/be reasonable/save Gotham.


*Yes. Pun intended.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Riding crops and flails are a bit too obvious, I guess.

Flails? Aha, so our nuns are actually clerics!
Keep in mind that flail isn't a very good one-hander. The damage roll is decent but the threat range sucks, plus you can't dual wield them!

 

[filthytrancendence]

And now the thread can shift fully to people outlining why they think their preferred reorganizational scheme is the only one that would work/be reasonable/save Gotham.

Somebody just brought up Capitalist Realism in another thread. Well, I did, but they alluded to it.

Now it occurs to me that my stance on this topic is basically Literotica Realism, in that I'm disinclined to imagine something radically better because what we already have kinda sorta works pretty well I guess, and tinkering with it too much might just make the whole house of cards collapse.

To my great shame, I find myself on the conservative side of the discussion

 

[alohadave]

To my great shame, I find myself on the conservative side of the discussion

I don't think that's a shameful position to hold. Ask anyone in IT about making changes and you'll find that change sucks and usually breaks something unintentionally. Being wary of taking the site down is a reasonable place to live.

 

[Bamagan]

Somebody just brought up Capitalist Realism in another thread. Well, I did, but they alluded to it.

Now it occurs to me that my stance on this topic is basically Literotica Realism, in that I'm disinclined to imagine something radically better because what we already have kinda sorta works pretty well I guess, and tinkering with it too much might just make the whole house of cards collapse.

To my great shame, I find myself on the conservative side of the discussion

I also doubt that any changes would constitute a radical improvement. For one thing, people tend to gripe when anything is different. Or a certain segment of them do, anyway. But stagnation is not a good policy either. Incremental improvements wherever possible is usually the way to go, for social and technical reasons. That seems to be the site policy, which I generally support, whether it's because of a lack of resources or some other reason.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Interesting look behind the curtain... One of my stories appears to be going someplace special...(the link goes to Crossdressers, btw)

 

[Voboy]

As a purely hypothetical exercise...
Any redesign of the category/tagging system here would, at minimum, need to have three characteristics to justify its implementation: improved filtering, searchability, and/or suggested results for readers, a reasonable balance between expanded reach and extra effort on the part of the authors for classifying their works, and not requiring massive reorganization of the vast database of existing stories.
For me, the biggest sticking point will be the 'reasonable balance' part of it from authors. Some choose not to use tags, considering them to be spoilers (for example). A problem many report is that it can be hard to pick good ones, even when we're only allowed ten. It's possible that incorporating some suggested tags and making them easy to add when submitting a story could ease that issue. It might even be possible to generate some suggestions based on keywords in the story; for example, if the work has a high volume of the word dick/cock/wang/pecker/etc., the submission form could offer* blowjobs, oral sex, and perhaps penis envy (or obsession) as potentially relevant tags, and the author could click on those if they agree.
I think I'd add a few default checklists with significant options that wouldn't count against the limit. Codes like FF, MF, MM and variations would be one such field; check the box for any that apply. Cases could be made for others, especially broad ones like BDSM. The 'legacy' categories could be treated as meta-lists and allow following/subscription.

And now the thread can shift fully to people outlining why they think their preferred reorganizational scheme is the only one that would work/be reasonable/save Gotham.

View attachment 2550904
*Yes. Pun intended.

There's another problem, though perhaps not an insurmountable one (I am not an IT guy). Suppose I'm looking for a story involving 18-year-old protagonists. There are a million such stories on here, but many of them are probably not tagged as such; I know that when I've used protagonists of that age, I generally haven't tagged the story that way.

But even if I have? How have I written that as a tag? 18-year-old? 18 year old? Eighteen year old? Eighteen-year-old? 18yo? 18 y.o.? Barely legal?

A tag-based system is at the mercy of writers using common tags, and it's unlikely they would. Then there are misspellings to throw more wrenches into the mix. Again, probably not a problem that can't be overcome, but maybe it is.

Somebody just brought up Capitalist Realism in another thread. Well, I did, but they alluded to it.

Now it occurs to me that my stance on this topic is basically Literotica Realism, in that I'm disinclined to imagine something radically better because what we already have kinda sorta works pretty well I guess, and tinkering with it too much might just make the whole house of cards collapse.

To my great shame, I find myself on the conservative side of the discussion

We must NEVER FORGET that the site is not set up for the writers. It is set up for the readers. Abundant evidence suggests that Laurel and Manu think the reader experience is optimized by categories over any other method of organization; this, to an extent, becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, but before suggesting a change so major? One would need to convince the site owners the current system isn't working.

They clearly think the current system is working. And we are a tiny subset of site users in here, so for all we know, maybe it is for the vast majority.

 

[alohadave]

They did not. It was "Transgender & Crossdressers" before.

I just checked the Wayback Machine to 2019 and it was Transgender.

The stats name must just be an old quirk that never got updated.

 

[Bamagan]

There's another problem, though perhaps not an insurmountable one (I am not an IT guy). Suppose I'm looking for a story involving 18-year-old protagonists. There are a million such stories on here, but many of them are probably not tagged as such; I know that when I've used protagonists of that age, I generally haven't tagged the story that way.

But even if I have? How have I written that as a tag? 18-year-old? 18 year old? Eighteen year old? Eighteen-year-old? 18yo? 18 y.o.? Barely legal?

A tag-based system is at the mercy of writers using common tags, and it's unlikely they would. Then there are misspellings to throw more wrenches into the mix. Again, probably not a problem that can't be overcome, but maybe it is.

Possible solutions that might work:
At least most of those variants for 18 can be collected by algorithm and replaced with a standardized choice, which would then be prompted in certain scenarios during the future submission process, or even by auto-correct if it seems necessary. Some might slip through the cracks, like if they tagged 'ate teen' or something (which could be hilarious or disturbing). It could also prompt it when submitting a First Time story, Mature, and perhaps others, or if it detects the numbers or words to that effect in the story. You'd still have the option not to select it, even if it's applicable, at the cost of lowered visibility for your story.
To be fair, that particular tag, or cluster of tags, would probably be relatively easy to do compared to others without a lot of recognizable synonyms.
Pursuant to your second point, yes, if the site wasn't working well enough for most folks, it probably wouldn't still be around. I think the category system is adequate for most purposes, even if it leaves something to be desired for folks with specific or rare tastes.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

There's another problem, though perhaps not an insurmountable one (I am not an IT guy). Suppose I'm looking for a story involving 18-year-old protagonists. There are a million such stories on here, but many of them are probably not tagged as such; I know that when I've used protagonists of that age, I generally haven't tagged the story that way.

But even if I have? How have I written that as a tag? 18-year-old? 18 year old? Eighteen year old? Eighteen-year-old? 18yo? 18 y.o.? Barely legal?

A tag-based system is at the mercy of writers using common tags, and it's unlikely they would. Then there are misspellings to throw more wrenches into the mix. Again, probably not a problem that can't be overcome, but maybe it is.

It can be overcome with fixed tags, like SOL uses. Allowing authors to create their own tags has been proven to be a terrible idea. An extensive set of fixed tags, along with the ability to set some tags as major tags and some as minor tags, would work wonders.

 

[filthytrancendence]

I don't think that's a shameful position to hold. Ask anyone in IT about making changes and you'll find that change sucks and usually breaks something unintentionally. Being wary of taking the site down is a reasonable place to live.

I was mostly attempting to make fun of myself for being an insufficiently radical leftist. I'm not so head-ass as to not be able to see the difference between an erotica website and the fundamental organizing principle of most nations. The harm of leaving Lit the way it is with occasional minor improvements is probably zero. The cost of trying radical improvements is potentially very high. Thus I land on the 'conservative' side.

Incremental improvements wherever possible is usually the way to go, for social and technical reasons.

Seems like that's what's already happening, tho. That's what this thread is all about. What you're suggesting is definitely a radical change. It would certainly be possible to make the tag system more robust while leaving the site design how it is for now, and obviously I'm in favor of doing that. There's no downside I can see beyond admin resources, which is probably why it will happen extremely slowly if it happens at all.

We must NEVER FORGET that the site is not set up for the writers. It is set up for the readers. Abundant evidence suggests that Laurel and Manu think the reader experience is optimized by categories over any other method of organization; this, to an extent, becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, but before suggesting a change so major? One would need to convince the site owners the current system isn't working.

They clearly think the current system is working. And we are a tiny subset of site users in here, so for all we know, maybe it is for the vast majority.

I mean, it seems like you're agreeing with me but in a tone that sounds like you're disagreeing. I don't think I did forget that. I'm saying probably just leave it how it is, with the occasional category tweak like we saw very recently.

 

[Britva415]

Announcement just dropped

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...essing-category-stories-update.1636074/unread

 

[Voboy]

It can be overcome with fixed tags, like SOL uses. Allowing authors to create their own tags has been proven to be a terrible idea. An extensive set of fixed tags, along with the ability to set some tags as major tags and some as minor tags, would work wonders.

"Fixed tags..." so, categories?

This is part of the issue. Anyone who suggests these things to L&M has to make an actual case. If I'm them, I'm looking for reasons to say "no." Now the proposal is different levels of tags?

Eyes would glaze over. Especially if the status quo seems to work already. Personally, when I read, I find the current system is perfectly fine.

I mean, it seems like you're agreeing with me but in a tone that sounds like you're disagreeing. I don't think I did forget that. I'm saying probably just leave it how it is, with the occasional category tweak like we saw very recently.

Nah, I'm agreeing. There are a number of posters here who, I sometimes think, forget that we're not the center of the universe.

 

[Bamagan]

I was mostly attempting to make fun of myself for being an insufficiently radical leftist. I'm not so head-ass as to not be able to see the difference between an erotica website and the fundamental organizing principle of most nations. The harm of leaving Lit the way it is with occasional minor improvements is probably zero. The cost of trying radical improvements is potentially very high. Thus I land on the 'conservative' side.


Seems like that's what's already happening, tho. That's what this thread is all about. What you're suggesting is definitely a radical change. It would certainly be possible to make the tag system more robust while leaving the site design how it is for now, and obviously I'm in favor of doing that. There's no downside I can see beyond admin resources, which is probably why it will happen extremely slowly if it happens at all.


I mean, it seems like you're agreeing with me but in a tone that sounds like you're disagreeing. I don't think I did forget that. I'm saying probably just leave it how it is, with the occasional category tweak like we saw very recently.

I'm not sure my idea is radical, although if it appeared full-blown it might be. The required systems are already in place. The tag cloud would need 'pruning' or collation, which would probably be the biggest hurdle for the site, although it would also probably be the most beneficial to readers seeking specific content within categories. The rest of it would be relatively minor tweaks to the submission options, which only authors would be affected by, and search filters.
But again, I'm not proposing they make such changes, just engaging in some blue-skying or whatever.