Can you flip an unknown switch

[Stegral]

My question is very crudely worded so please bear with me...

~~CAN a Female PYL "train/teach" her male ply to please Her by doing things that would seem like Topping, such as pleasuring Her by learning different edgeplay techniques like how to use easier sensory play items such as furs, feathers, fire, wax, knives (no blood) & such (no floggers, crops or spanks) to please Her by erotic touch much in the way She could be serviced my domestic servitude, boot worship or other ways I have seen offered/written ~~

I am a switch that can easily do to another what I enjoy & have learned to do more of what my bottom likes even though it tests my limits as I can't have it done to me without panicing.

I am wondering if there is a switch in everyone or if some just couldn't.
I am wondering & asking due to a slave (his term, not mine) contacting me & offering "anything for my pleasure" but knowing full well the type of headspace you need to Top, could You get a slave/subbie into the mindset they are pleasuring You exactly how You want, are extremely pleased with them & NOT hurting You ??
I would LOVE to hear from the male (or bi) pyl's on how the female PYL got them to do it.
I would really like to hear from the female PYL's that have been able to bring this behavior in their pyl & how they did it...

*special thanks to a certain someone for breaking the mental block*

 

[BiBunny]

Very simply, yes.

It's something I would require of any man (or woman) in my service. I have to have at least a little pain to cum. If you can't get off your high horse about that, then guess what. You're not really a sub; you're just another lazy jackass who wants a chick to tie you up, suck your dick, and peg you in the ass. Service. The operative word is service.

Can you tell I've gone rounds with people about this lately?

 

[nh23]

I agree with Bunny. If my Dom told me to tie him up and beat him..I'd tie him up and beat him. I strive to please him in everything. If that's what would please him, I would be happy to do it.

 

[Netzach]

I posted on this in blurt, where it didn't belong, but I hope it was helpful.

Short version - I periodically require being in bondage and I made sure my husband gained the same skills I did in it. If you're the Domme, seems to me you're pretty much calling the shots.

Some guys will have a laundry list of things they won't do for you because...whatever. And you don't want subs like that anyway, right?

I was able to do it very easily, but it had to be clear that this is a service to me and I don't expect M to "switch" with me, because he's not.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Very simply, yes.

It's something I would require of any man (or woman) in my service. I have to have at least a little pain to cum. If you can't get off your high horse about that, then guess what. You're not really a sub; you're just another lazy jackass who wants a chick to tie you up, suck your dick, and peg you in the ass. Service. The operative word is service.

Can you tell I've gone rounds with people about this lately?

I agree with Bunny. If my Dom told me to tie him up and beat him..I'd tie him up and beat him. I strive to please him in everything. If that's what would please him, I would be happy to do it.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeey, what you have described is not a walk in the park for every submissive, service orientated or not . If you set those definitions I won't be getting my next edition of Submissive Vogue.

: prepares to leave the building :

 

[BiBunny]

Heeeeeeeeeeeeey, what you have described is not a walk in the park for every submissive, service orientated or not . If you set those definitions I won't be getting my next edition of Submissive Vogue.

: prepares to leave the building :

Noooooo, Miss Rebecca, don't leave!

I figure that at some point, all subs are going to have to do something they don't want to do because the Dom/me wants them to. In my world, it may as well be a bit of topping as anything. YMMV, of course.

 

[nh23]

Heeeeeeeeeeeeey, what you have described is not a walk in the park for every submissive, service orientated or not . If you set those definitions I won't be getting my next edition of Submissive Vogue.

: prepares to leave the building :

Don't leave rebecca! That's me..my opinion. Not all that valuable.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Noooooo, Miss Rebecca, don't leave!

I figure that at some point, all subs are going to have to do something they don't want to do because the Dom/me wants them to. In my world, it may as well be a bit of topping as anything. YMMV, of course.

Miss Bunny you switch, so by default going on prior posts of yours, there are skills you have acquired when topping that you can apply when bottoming when in submission and they are most likely not that large a stretch for you. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I'll probably like it : beams :

I would define beating a PYL as a directive as a hard limit, wouldn't get to that point though, back track it's an area of clearly defined incompatibility. Doesn't challenge the premise that I am either submissive or that I won't strive hard in other areas to attain things that are of immense struggle to me , if that's the desire of a PYL I am in service to.

: smiles : I didn't leave, the phone rang !

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

Don't leave rebecca! That's me..my opinion. Not all that valuable.

I'm here , it's all good. Just wanted to make a friendly point

 

[BiBunny]

Miss Bunny you switch, so by default going on prior posts of yours, there are skills you have acquired when topping that you can apply when bottoming when in submission and they are most likely not that large a stretch for you. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I'll probably like it : beams :

I would define beating a PYL as a directive as a hard limit, wouldn't get to that point though, back track it's an area of clearly defined incompatibility. Doesn't challenge the premise that I am either submissive or that I won't strive hard in other areas to attain things that are of immense struggle to me , if that's the desire of a PYL I am in service to.

: smiles : I didn't leave, the phone rang !

You may have a point with your first paragraph.

I will say, though, that I don't necessarily expect any sub of mine to tie me up and beat me. I understand that there'd be a good bit of discomfort there (which might be hot on some level, but, let's face it, as weird as I am about being beaten on, I certainly don't want it done by someone who's not incredibly proficient). Lemme see if I can give some good examples.

For example, I absolutely despise being on top during sex. If I'm having sex with a partner, there are only a few very extenuating circumstances in which I'll be on top, and it's always when a Dom orders me to do so. Now, a lot of subs have this idea in their heads that it's "Dom/mely" to be on top. If sex is in the equation, they would expect me to be on top. But it's not going to happen because I don't like it that way. Refusing to be on top when I tell you to do it just because you don't think it's a submissive thing to do is essentially topping from the bottom, I think. I truly don't care what you think is "submissive." I care what I think is submissive.

Ok, wow, that's an incredibly complicated paragraph. Let me try something else.

Many subs believe that they have to be very gentle and worshipful with all of Mistress's body parts. "Gentleness" in certain areas makes me feel nauseated, to be quite honest. If I tell you to be rougher to keep me from vomiting on you, and you refuse to do it because it's not "submissive," then, again, I think it's essentially topping from the bottom.

Am I making sense at all?

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

You may have a point with your first paragraph.

I will say, though, that I don't necessarily expect any sub of mine to tie me up and beat me. I understand that there'd be a good bit of discomfort there (which might be hot on some level, but, let's face it, as weird as I am about being beaten on, I certainly don't want it done by someone who's not incredibly proficient). Lemme see if I can give some good examples.

For example, I absolutely despise being on top during sex. If I'm having sex with a partner, there are only a few very extenuating circumstances in which I'll be on top, and it's always when a Dom orders me to do so. Now, a lot of subs have this idea in their heads that it's "Dom/mely" to be on top. If sex is in the equation, they would expect me to be on top. But it's not going to happen because I don't like it that way. Refusing to be on top when I tell you to do it just because you don't think it's a submissive thing to do is essentially topping from the bottom, I think. I truly don't care what you think is "submissive." I care what I think is submissive.

Ok, wow, that's an incredibly complicated paragraph. Let me try something else.

Many subs believe that they have to be very gentle and worshipful with all of Mistress's body parts. "Gentleness" in certain areas makes me feel nauseated, to be quite honest. If I tell you to be rougher to keep me from vomiting on you, and you refuse to do it because it's not "submissive," then, again, I think it's essentially topping from the bottom.

Am I making sense at all?

Yes Miss Bunny, you are making sense, the majority of which you are speaking of falls into the realm of stereotyping I would have thought. I may have to go off and consider how to convey the next part so I am clear without coming off as defensive or argumentative. Yep, I better drop this one for awhile : smiles :

 

[BiBunny]

Yes Miss Bunny, you are making sense, the majority of which you are speaking of falls into the realm of stereotyping I would have thought. I may have to go off and consider how to convey the next part so I am clear without coming off as defensive or argumentative. Yep, I better drop this one for awhile : smiles :

*Nods* I'd like to hear what you have to say.

And I'd like to tell you that it's stupid stereotyping, but the examples I've given are things I've run into on more than one occasion. I've actually run into it often enough that I now have to more or less say to prospective subs, "I'm a switch. I need roughness to get off. Do you have a problem with that?" If the answer is yes, I stop wasting both our time. If it's no, then we have something to go on.

 

[LilyBart]

I truly don't care what you think is "submissive." I care what I think is submissive.

Ok, wow, that's an incredibly complicated paragraph. Let me try something else.

Many subs believe that they have to be very gentle and worshipful with all of Mistress's body parts. "Gentleness" in certain areas makes me feel nauseated, to be quite honest. If I tell you to be rougher to keep me from vomiting on you, and you refuse to do it because it's not "submissive," then, again, I think it's essentially topping from the bottom.

Am I making sense at all?

Perfect sense. Thank you for articulating what I thought I knew.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I don't think it is beyond possible, but nor do I think it is necessarily switching. For it to become switching IMHO it would have to be something the pyl desired and got off on to a point where it was a real need, not the carrying out of an order. I have been placed in the position of having to top other subs and found surprisingly I did well at it, actually made F sit up and take notice , but only after I got my head around the fact I was not expected to 'want' to top as much as carry out that which had been ordered...and place my headspace in a position where I could utilise all my own pyl longings and desires and fulfil them for someone else I knew felt the same feelings. Could I do it to F if he required it? Yes, though I do not think it would be something I would enjoy in the way I want, but then again it is not about my pleasure so that would be a moot point.

Catalina

 

[Bandit58]

I don't think I'd have a problem with the sensory type of play like tickle feathers, fur, wax etc. I have done similar with my female (vanilla) play partner and she loved it I'm yet to try anything like flogging or a hand spanking, but could see myself being able to carry out something light and sensual.

But using a crop, or cane to cause serious pain and bruising - not likely. I'm not a sadist. I like to give pleasure, not pain, and even if the other wanted me to do it, I'd have to call hard limit.

 

[sexycaz22]

Many subs believe that they have to be very gentle and worshipful with all of Mistress's body parts. "Gentleness" in certain areas makes me feel nauseated, to be quite honest. If I tell you to be rougher to keep me from vomiting on you, and you refuse to do it because it's not "submissive," then, again, I think it's essentially topping from the bottom.

Am I making sense at all?

No, you are making perfectly sense to me!

I do understand where you are coming from, BiBunny. In my fantasies, I often have one sub (who is gorgeous, by the way!) and I often order him to be rough with me, since I do desire some rough sex, as a person, and not in a submissive OR topping way. I just desire it...as a sexually person, whether it to be in a BDSM relationship OR in a vanilla relationship.

I certainly hope that if or when I do find a sub, which I feel really comfortable with, that he would be willing to serve me in the WAY I want him to serve, along with some possible "topping from the bottom" i.e. in the way of being on the top; spanking me or tying me up etc. I am not sure if I do want him to be a switch; as I know that I might not be able to serve outside the bedroom as a submissive but as a Domme, I certainly expect the sub to serve me outside the bedroom as well as in the bedroom. I dunno if this makes sense......????

 

[Netzach]

Miss Bunny you switch, so by default going on prior posts of yours, there are skills you have acquired when topping that you can apply when bottoming when in submission and they are most likely not that large a stretch for you. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I'll probably like it : beams :

I would define beating a PYL as a directive as a hard limit, wouldn't get to that point though, back track it's an area of clearly defined incompatibility. Doesn't challenge the premise that I am either submissive or that I won't strive hard in other areas to attain things that are of immense struggle to me , if that's the desire of a PYL I am in service to.

: smiles : I didn't leave, the phone rang !

This makes some sense to me. I know that M does not have this in his makeup, it's not going to be enjoyable for me to get beaten by him because I'm going to have to be more concerned with his mental state than I can be to just enjoy a good beating anyway. So it's not something I have him do. I've had him test a couple of things on me, and I know he's taken a swat at my butt in jest once or twice, but when his bathrobe belt actually did crack my ass and I said "ow" once he felt just horrible about it for about an hour, even if I thought it was funny. It was totally an out of the blue accident - he'd meant to make the noise only. For him, hitting me with something is not just the same as a good hard screw or a deep tissue massage. H is DEFINITELY the same way - I'm never getting any top action from him in my life, unless it were some kind of ruse to mess with other people or something. I wouldn't want it. It would be so halting and .....ewww. Just so icky.

Tying up, on the other hand, IS in M's range of do-able - I know this because he taught me a lot about how to tie him in the way he needs to feel what he needs to feel in bondage. My bondage skills before I met him were pretty scant and clueless, though I always wanted to learn more. I also know that he was in a relationship with someone he used to take turns tying up for sex, though he told me he would have loved it if he never had to take turns. I eventually said "well you'll have to take turns with me, but in a totally different manner. This is what I want: I want someone who can tie me up at an event, watch me to make sure I'm still breathing, blindfold me, and then be the meanest little motherfucker to make sure people aren't ogling tripping over and screwing with me till I feel done with my little trip."

We tried the "tie me up and fuck me" thing once. I found it fairly unpleasant sex, and I was really sore the next AM and it was utterly blah for me. Which is better than the usual track record, I tend to get very grossed out and panicky when people get sexual with me in bondage at all, for reasons I can't quite figure out, there's no trauma story there. I don't think he loved it, it was not highlight sex for us. I have had him tie me before bed and sit and kiss my cheek, and that's perfectly lovely for me. My needs are very specific in that case.

If I were with someone who refused to take turns with me in bondage class and even try to learn how to tie shinju and box tie on my arms in a class setting, I don't know that this disqualifies them as submissive at all, but they're certainly crappy at taking MY orders.

Beatings aren't that important to me as things I need from a partner though, so it's a compatibility of Domme/sub issue on that level. I do like bondage with someone I can trust and more importantly someone I can control - if I needed to have the same sense of control about being flogged or spanked and I enjoyed those things as much it would be an issue at home indeed.

If I wanted "to switch" and be a rope bottom to someone who was in control of the scene, there are myriad people who are happy to step in. Thing is, I don't. I want to be tied on my terms, my way, my burger. Tied up with as much polite deference as if someone were going down on me and wanted it perfect and didn't know what I liked in that department.

I'm honestly getting that Stegral wants to have a pretty high level of control over the sensation she's getting, if I'm not mistaken - so I do think that this isn't really a "switch" scenario, and that a lot of people wired to switch aren't going to necessarily stay deferential enough to really give this dynamic what it needs, but I might be way off.

 

[Netzach]

I don't think I'd have a problem with the sensory type of play like tickle feathers, fur, wax etc. I have done similar with my female (vanilla) play partner and she loved it I'm yet to try anything like flogging or a hand spanking, but could see myself being able to carry out something light and sensual.

But using a crop, or cane to cause serious pain and bruising - not likely. I'm not a sadist. I like to give pleasure, not pain, and even if the other wanted me to do it, I'd have to call hard limit.

Yep, you could totally be my husband's long lost sis in this regard - I think he said the exact same thing about himself when this discussion came up. And it made a lot of sense to me.

 

[JMohegan]

It seems difficult for many who are comfortable doing X to fathom how someone could possibly have a genuine psychological block against doing X, with the result that people who refuse to engage in X are often labeled lazy, uncaring, uncommitted, selfish, stuck-up, etc. I have to wonder if some of the responses here would have been different, had the OP mentioned scat in lieu of wax, fire, etc.

Based on my experience with submissives, I'd say that they can taught to do a helluva lot of things they once considered off limits, intolerable, or even unimaginable. However, the stronger the initial physical or psychological barrier, the more time, patience, understanding, and skill required to overcome it.

"Your job is to serve, now do X" only works if X is something the submissive already wants to do, or if the Top/Dominant has made the necessary investment in time & effort to bring the submissive to the point of willingness to do X for his/her benefit. The greater the initial aversion to X, the more time & effort required to bring the submissive to that point.

My question is very crudely worded so please bear with me...

~~CAN a Female PYL "train/teach" her male ply to please Her by doing things that would seem like Topping, such as pleasuring Her by learning different edgeplay techniques like how to use easier sensory play items such as furs, feathers, fire, wax, knives (no blood) & such (no floggers, crops or spanks) to please Her by erotic touch much in the way She could be serviced my domestic servitude, boot worship or other ways I have seen offered/written ~~

Assuming that the activity does not bump up against the submissive's squick/fear/emotional/other barriers, my answer is: Sure, why not?

My suggestion would be to practice with non-kinky physical encounters in which you are 100% physically passive but verbally micromanaging his behavior, from start to finish as he gets you off. Gradually adding instruments of sensation will only be an extension of this "game". As he becomes familiar with the instruments and your reactions to them, the need for specific instructions should dissipate over time.

 

[Netzach]

I have to wonder if some of the responses here would have been different, had the OP mentioned scat in lieu of wax, fire, etc.

Not from me. Where my slave is concerned I expect willingness. There are just certain things which are less productive than other things. You're right, it involves some investment to get most people to this point.

How much time and how negotiable you are is really a question of how important X is to your getting off. If it's pretty central to your getting off, you're not going to invest tons of patient hand holding in a pretty nice girl who won't do the equivalent of blowing you if you really love getting blown.

At least I won't.

 

[JMohegan]

How much time and how negotiable you are is really a question of how important X is to your getting off. If it's pretty central to your getting off, you're not going to invest tons of patient hand holding in a pretty nice girl who won't do the equivalent of blowing you if you really love getting blown.

Ha ha - true!

I'm willing to invest this type of time & energy at the margin, but not at the core.



.

 

[BiBunny]

It seems difficult for many who are comfortable doing X to fathom how someone could possibly have a genuine psychological block against doing X, with the result that people who refuse to engage in X are often labeled lazy, uncaring, uncommitted, selfish, stuck-up, etc. I have to wonder if some of the responses here would have been different, had the OP mentioned scat in lieu of wax, fire, etc.

Based on my experience with submissives, I'd say that they can taught to do a helluva lot of things they once considered off limits, intolerable, or even unimaginable. However, the stronger the initial physical or psychological barrier, the more time, patience, understanding, and skill required to overcome it.

"Your job is to serve, now do X" only works if X is something the submissive already wants to do, or if the Top/Dominant has made the necessary investment in time & effort to bring the submissive to the point of willingness to do X for his/her benefit. The greater the initial aversion to X, the more time & effort required to bring the submissive to that point.

Assuming that the activity does not bump up against the submissive's squick/fear/emotional/other barriers, my answer is: Sure, why not?

My suggestion would be to practice with non-kinky physical encounters in which you are 100% physically passive but verbally micromanaging his behavior, from start to finish as he gets you off. Gradually adding instruments of sensation will only be an extension of this "game". As he becomes familiar with the instruments and your reactions to them, the need for specific instructions should dissipate over time.

I think we're actually on the same page here, especially with the part I bolded. Maybe it's not such an issue with femsubs (I don't know because I haven't had a lot of experience with them), but msubs, particularly the not-so-experienced ones, have this annoying tendency to sit around and read porn and think it's supposed to be like what he saw. Like I've said before, I'm not there to fulfill his strap-on fantasy or whatever. If you're a sub, then you do what I want you to do, not what the little fantasy Mistress in your head tells you.

I've gotten better at weeding these out, though. Of course, it leaves me with very few men to play with, but so be it. I'd never push someone past a really hard emotional limit intentionally, but I have an issue with a sub telling me what is submissive and what isn't. What's submissive is you doing what I ask, not standing around and analyzing it all day.

 

[Stegral]

Wow.. all this info in so little time

Very simply, yes.
It's something I would require of any man (or woman) in my service. I have to have at least a little pain to cum. If you can't get off your high horse about that, then guess what. You're not really a sub; you're just another lazy jackass who wants a chick to tie you up, suck your dick, and peg you in the ass. Service. The operative word is service.

Can you tell I've gone rounds with people about this lately?

Yep, I can tell.. & I am sorry you had to. I have had similar things happen where meeting for coffee meant I was a collared sex slave.. my profile where we met says "not looking for sex" & was quite indignant when I wanted to end the meeting... called me a wanna be, it hurt but I know we wouldn't have gotten far.

I agree with Bunny. If my Dom told me to tie him up and beat him..I'd tie him up and beat him. I strive to please him in everything. If that's what would please him, I would be happy to do it.

That is awesome, hell I can't do that when I am in Domme mode...

Heeeeeeeeeeeeey, what you have described is not a walk in the park for every submissive, service orientated or not . If you set those definitions I won't be getting my next edition of Submissive Vogue.

: prepares to leave the building :

THIS is what I meant in my OP about it being possible or not...
Thank you for this input, (see reply to nh23)

I was able to do it very easily, but it had to be clear that this is a service to me and I don't expect M to "switch" with me, because he's not.

This is what I am trying to figure out how to "instruct" him on this service to me that will make me extremely happy.

I'm honestly getting that Stegral wants to have a pretty high level of control over the sensation she's getting, if I'm not mistaken - so I do think that this isn't really a "switch" scenario, and that a lot of people wired to switch aren't going to necessarily stay deferential enough to really give this dynamic what it needs, but I might be way off.

You are quite correct Netzach, switching is the only way my mind could understand it, but with all the input it is learning other ways of expressing what I need to say.

 

[nh23]

That is awesome, hell I can't do that when I am in Domme mode..

That being said..lol. My Dom has never asked me to tie him up and beat him. So maybe I'm talking out my ass. But, I do know that I've not refused anything I didn't really want to do as of this point. I have however performed other "activities" for other people that can be seen as me being a service top. I don't get off on it. It doesn't make me all warm and tingly..lol. But, I enjoy that it gives them pleasure. I know for some people it's a big deal. I respect that. For me..it's not.

 

[Stegral]

I don't think it is beyond possible, but nor do I think it is necessarily switching. For it to become switching IMHO it would have to be something the pyl desired and got off on to a point where it was a real need, not the carrying out of an order. I have been placed in the position of having to top other subs and found surprisingly I did well at it, actually made F sit up and take notice , but only after I got my head around the fact I was not expected to 'want' to top as much as carry out that which had been ordered...and place my headspace in a position where I could utilise all my own pyl longings and desires and fulfil them for someone else I knew felt the same feelings. Could I do it to F if he required it? Yes, though I do not think it would be something I would enjoy in the way I want, but then again it is not about my pleasure so that would be a moot point.
Catalina

The bolded parts are what I have been trying to put into words.
The RED is what I need to remember as a Domme.... It isn't about his pleasure.

I don't think I'd have a problem with the sensory type of play like tickle feathers, fur, wax etc. I have done similar with my female (vanilla) play partner and she loved it I'm yet to try anything like flogging or a hand spanking, but could see myself being able to carry out something light and sensual.

But using a crop, or cane to cause serious pain and bruising - not likely. I'm not a sadist. I like to give pleasure, not pain, and even if the other wanted me to do it, I'd have to call hard limit.

Again awesome words bolded, reflects my feelings excatly.
his "rewards" are bordering on my hard limits...
bites cause bruising but I LIKE those

It seems difficult for many who are comfortable doing X to fathom how someone could possibly have a genuine psychological block against doing X, with the result that people who refuse to engage in X are often labeled lazy, uncaring, uncommitted, selfish, stuck-up, etc. I have to wonder if some of the responses here would have been different, had the OP mentioned scat in lieu of wax, fire, etc.

Based on my experience with submissives, I'd say that they can taught to do a helluva lot of things they once considered off limits, intolerable, or even unimaginable. However, the stronger the initial physical or psychological barrier, the more time, patience, understanding, and skill required to overcome it.

"Your job is to serve, now do X" only works if X is something the submissive already wants to do, or if the Top/Dominant has made the necessary investment in time & effort to bring the submissive to the point of willingness to do X for his/her benefit. The greater the initial aversion to X, the more time & effort required to bring the submissive to that point.

Assuming that the activity does not bump up against the submissive's squick/fear/emotional/other barriers, my answer is: Sure, why not?

My suggestion would be to practice with non-kinky physical encounters in which you are 100% physically passive but verbally micromanaging his behavior, from start to finish as he gets you off. Gradually adding instruments of sensation will only be an extension of this "game". As he becomes familiar with the instruments and your reactions to them, the need for specific instructions should dissipate over time.

This makes so much sense. Reflecting now on HOW I was intro'd to the implements & remembering it was over a year, going from pinwheels up to knives in baby steps. I wasn't wondering if you could make a pyl beat you, more the lighter sensory play toys. Hell I go into flight/panic mode if I get spanked playfully, I would NEVER expect My sub to cause me pain with a cane or crop. I am still VERY new to this & things he suggested as rewards test my limits. I am going to try my best to plan out our first "session".


Thanks all again for the input I need the help..
I am worried I have opened a door I shouldn't have.
I need to step out of my comfort zone to gain reassurance I CAN do this.