Can this marriage be saved????

[peachykeen]

THANK YOU to those of you who have so graciously pointed out that it is not likely somehow Sue's fault - for not doing enough! Let me see, did the woman not, oh, bear his children? Prepare his food? Wash his dirty underpants? Scrub his toilet? And on and on and on with a whole litany of not-so-very-sexy things that she no doubt did for him day in and day out? But she's "not paying him enough attention" ?! Oh puh-leeze. Before we talk about how Sue was neglecting poor little John, let's find out just exactly what efforts John made to make her feel like a sexy, desirable, vital woman, and not just a domestic engineer.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

THANK YOU to those of you who have so graciously pointed out that it is not likely somehow Sue's fault - for not doing enough! Let me see, did the woman not, oh, bear his children? Prepare his food? Wash his dirty underpants? Scrub his toilet? And on and on and on with a whole litany of not-so-very-sexy things that she no doubt did for him day in and day out? But she's "not paying him enough attention" ?! Oh puh-leeze. Before we talk about how Sue was neglecting poor little John, let's find out just exactly what efforts John made to make her feel like a sexy, desirable, vital woman, and not just a domestic engineer.

Did you ever think that maybe she held those things over his head? "I do all these things for you, and all you do is make money"...could she have ever made him feel this way? I don't know either person, but I know that relationships are pretty complex, and for things to have gotten this far, both of them probably hold some measure of the blame. Obviously, he showed lack of respect and poor judgment...but he may be filled with deep hurt over things that she has done, that he has no way of even expressing.

 

[sheath]

Again, what incredible responses...

I have noticed something that I can perhaps shed some light on...

Sue and I have been discussing this A LOT (usually at three AM when she can't sleep...) and she tells me that she and John had a good sex life...or so she thought. If anyone was unsatisfied, it was HER. She tells me (and being girls and friends, I have always heard her say this!) that she wanted sex about once a day, while John was happy with once a week and often refused to give her more.

Sue has gained weight over the years, probably about fifty pounds, but she was UNDERweight to begin with...so she looks fabulous. But she thinks that has something to do with his disinterest...

Chic asked a question that I should have answered in the first post...she asked where the time went, basically...

"Another thing that hasn't been mentioned. She is a stay at home mom, he works long hours. When does she have time to herself? If she is home all day with the kids, and he is gone all day at work, where is their alone time? In this senerio is he chatting with women after work, or during? If after work, why isn't he spending time with his wife? If during, why aren't Sue and John sending steamy emails to one another through out the day? Building anticipation and such. Simple things can add up, small considerations can keep a relationship going. "

In answer: She doesn't have time to herself. Her life revolves around the kids. He is gone all the time, and he chooses to work the overtime, not because they need the money. John works midnights, and on the nights he is home, while Sue is sleeping, he is on the computer. Those are the times he contacted the women.

I noticed that SlickTony almost hit the nail on the head with that last post...so far as Sue's complaint about wanting it all the time and John never actually caring for it as much as she did...

Sue has contacted a lawyer and made plans for what to do if she does move out of the house. She is continuing with her counseling, and she has set a deadline for John...either he begin counseling by "this" date (about two weeks from now) or one of them moves out. She is also looking for employment, in the chance that she might need to support herself without any help from him. And that is where it stands thus far...

So...again, as always, thanks. More advice? It's welcome.

S.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

What a shame...

 

[SexyChele]

Okay, three things to respond to....

Let me see, did the woman not, oh, bear his children? Prepare his food? Wash his dirty underpants? Scrub his toilet? And on and on and on with a whole litany of not-so-very-sexy things that she no doubt did for him day in and day out? But she's "not paying him enough attention" ?! Oh puh-leeze. Before we talk about how Sue was neglecting poor little John, let's find out just exactly what efforts John made to make her feel like a sexy, desirable, vital woman, and not just a domestic engineer.

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but if came between some one scrubbing my toilet or giving me some physical attention - screw the damned toilet! Hell, that damn toilet will be there tomorrow and the day after and the day after that. The person you love might not be.

I don't know either person, but I know that relationships are pretty complex, and for things to have gotten this far, both of them probably hold some measure of the blame. Obviously, he showed lack of respect and poor judgment...but he may be filled with deep hurt over things that she has done, that he has no way of even expressing.

I agree - totally! I don't think this whole situation is completely Sue's faul OR John's fault. We seem to be hearing a great deal of Sue's side, and I do feel sorry for the woman. But, so far, we really don't know where John's mind is at, do we? But, of course, he's a man so he instantly gets the blame.

Sue has gained weight over the years, probably about fifty pounds, but she was UNDERweight to begin with...so she looks fabulous. But she thinks that has something to do with his disinterest...


In answer: She doesn't have time to herself. Her life revolves around the kids. He is gone all the time, and he chooses to work the overtime, not because they need the money. John works midnights, and on the nights he is home, while Sue is sleeping, he is on the computer. Those are the times he contacted the women.

I noticed that SlickTony almost hit the nail on the head with that last post...so far as Sue's complaint about wanting it all the time and John never actually caring for it as much as she did...

Oh boy, lots and lots of telling remarks in these words! Sue states she would like sex once a day, at least, but states John is not interested. Okay. Then she state she has gained weight and feels that John may have lost interest because of this. Body image is very important - whether it be how one perceives their own body or if another person is doing the perceiving. If Sue feels that her weight gain has disinterested John (and it sounds as though she has not consulted with him about this), then chances are, just maybe, she feels a bit self-conscious and that might be putting him off. After all, self confidence is an intense aphrodisiac, and if one is lacking in it, then others pick that up. I've heard this statement from women before, and usually when you talk to their husbands, the husbands state they don't care what their wives look like. But they do wish their wives would feel more confident about how they look, so they would be more open with sexual encounters.

Now, her life revolves around her kids. Okay, so does most moms. However, in a case such as this, there needs to be "mom and dad" time. Unless we are talking babies here, most older children can amuse themselves for a few hours. Or, simply put the kids to bed before 9 and have a couple of hours "unwind" time. (Not necessarily sexual, could be just talking)

Now, this doesn't help when John doesn't get home until very late. And that could be a way he is "escaping". We really don't know John's story in all of this, do we? However, since I would imagine Sue much get up early to make breakfast and get the kids to school, why not go to bed early and be up when John gets home? Talk with him then?

I am curious to know, now that the computer is out of the house, what does John do now when he comes home late from work? Go directly to bed? Watch TV?

When I read this, I was struck by a line from "Gone With The Wind" in which Clark Gable responds to Vivian Leigh - "I believe we have been at cross purposes."

Personally, I think there is much more to this story than John simply placing ads on a computer dating service. Much deeper, and much more difficult for either of them to admit - to themselves, to each other, and to others outside the relationship. I can understand that Sue's story would be easier to get and relate. Makes sense. But until John's side is heard and understood, there is simply not enough to really make any sort of armchair decision, IMO.

 

[peachykeen]

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but if came between some one scrubbing my toilet or giving me some physical attention - screw the damned toilet! Hell, that damn toilet will be there tomorrow and the day after and the day after that. The person you love might not be.

I'm not sured what you mean by this. I mean, isn't Sue supposedly the one he loves, as well as the one who cleans the toilet?

I wasn't meaning to imply (although, in retrospect, I can see how it could be inferred) that 'everything is all John's fault'. All I was trying to say is, there is a reference in an earlier post where John supposedly said he was doing what he was doing because Sue was not paying him enough attention. Well, that is a fucking piss poor excuse! How exactly did John think that placing a bunch of ads on internet dating services and corresponding with other women was going to encourage his wife to pay more attention to him, hmmm?

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Something I just thought of...if Sue is self-conscious about her weight(whatever she might look like to us), and she started wearing larger sweaters, or bulkier nightclothes, John might have seen it as a sign that she wasn't attracted to him, when in fact she just didn't find herself attractive. Imagine, ladies, that your man completely stops being naked around you, only wants to make love with the lights off, trades his boxers for shapeless sweats when you go to bed, and makes sure he is hiding under the covers before you come into the bedroom. Is it possible that you would take that as a hint that he doesn't want to be intimate with you?

 

[peachykeen]

Still no excuse.

 

[capricious_chic]

I still stand by my statement. Regardless of what lead up to it, John is the one in the wrong here. It has nothing to do with the fact that he is a man. If the positions were reversed, I would say the exact same thing about Sue.

He is the one who chose to go outside of the marriage instead of trying to work on it. If he can tell random stangers on the net what his problems and hurts are, why can't he tell his wife?
The only reason he couldn't is if he is ashamed, or if he realizes that the perceived problems are of his own making. That is my opinion. Right or wrong, in the same situation that is how I would feel. If my mate can't discuss the most intimate details of life with me, and I with him, then we don't need to be together.

 

[Lust Engine]

I still stand by my statement. Regardless of what lead up to it, John is the one in the wrong here. It has nothing to do with the fact that he is a man. If the positions were reversed, I would say the exact same thing about Sue.

He is the one who chose to go outside of the marriage instead of trying to work on it. If he can tell random stangers on the net what his problems and hurts are, why can't he tell his wife?
The only reason he couldn't is if he is ashamed, or if he realizes that the perceived problems are of his own making. That is my opinion. Right or wrong, in the same situation that is how I would feel. If my mate can't discuss the most intimate details of life with me, and I with him, then we don't need to be together.

I think CC has a very valid point here. Total honesty with each other is paramount. The vows that they both took should be to one another first and no one else. It's cowardly to slink around behind one another; it takes some courage to step into a relationship and even more courage to follow through.

 

[SexyChele]

How exactly did John think that placing a bunch of ads on internet dating services and corresponding with other women was going to encourage his wife to pay more attention to him, hmmm?

Okay, none of us knows exactly what John is thinking. Everything we have heard so far has been third hand and speculation. However, I was involved with a married man (an incident prior to the one I mentioned above) and when the shit started hitting the fan, I asked him why he did it. He said the exact same thing John did - he wasn't getting any attention. (Which translated to - relationship was changing into one of settled marriage complicity and he wanted the excitement they first had, I later found out) When I told him I wasn't buying it, and I didn't understand how an affair would change his wife's attitude (the person whose attention he was supposedly trying to get), his answer? I have an exact quote, as I've never forgotten it:

"If I get her jealous, she will have to pay attention to me."

I firmly believe that over 90% of all men who cheat expect, at some level, to get caught at it.

 

[capricious_chic]

"If I get her jealous, she will have to pay attention to me."

When I discovered a former mate cheating on me, this was his exact reasoning. The thing is, I couldn't have paid any more attention to him. He had my complete and whole attention, and my trust. We spent time together, and time alone. It was during the supposed "boys night out" that he pursued another relationship.

The reasoning is flawed, and over done. I have heard many men and women say the same thing, and as an outside observer and someone that has had that said to me, I feel it is an excuse for ones own behavior. It is a sorry try at a justification for when one knows they are in the wrong. It makes it all seem like the OTHER persons fault, and not ones own. My exact quote to him was, "You made your bed, now go lie in it and pray that it will be as comfortable as the bed you just left.", as I kicked his ass out the door. Interestingly enough, he has never gotten over me. His current g/f's complain that he compares them to me. We are still connected because we share a child. It entertains the hell out of me, but the simple fact is I could never be intimate with him again. Yes, I forgive him. We get along well and have an amicable relationship. He has made overtures throughout the years of trying again, I just laugh and say no. The moment I found out that he had "cheated" on me, was the exact moment that any feeling I had for him died. Never to be rekindled. It wasn't that he had boinked another women. If he had come home the night it happened or even a few days later and gave me full disclosure we could have worked through it. We could have talked it out, determined where it stemmed from, and if we wanted to try and salvage what we had. I found out from outside sources and was incredibly hurt that he had been living a lie. He hadn't told me, nor had he ever planned to. Which leads me to believe, he didn't ever want me to find out. He wanted to pretend it never happened and move on. It was only after all the facts were on the table that he resorted to the, "I just wanted more of your attention, I wanted you to prove to me that you loved me by showing jealousy."

Ack, just ack!

 

[Amfig]

THANK YOU to those of you who have so graciously pointed out that it is not likely somehow Sue's fault - for not doing enough! Let me see, did the woman not, oh, bear his children? Prepare his food? Wash his dirty underpants? Scrub his toilet? And on and on and on with a whole litany of not-so-very-sexy things that she no doubt did for him day in and day out? But she's "not paying him enough attention" ?! Oh puh-leeze. Before we talk about how Sue was neglecting poor little John, let's find out just exactly what efforts John made to make her feel like a sexy, desirable, vital woman, and not just a domestic engineer.

If either party is looking for "fault" this marriage cannot be saved. Also, it is my conviction that almost every person who claims to be a victim is to some degree responsible for his victimization. He or she who has not examined his cooperation in or responsibility for his victimization both leads the unexamined life and risks further victimization.

The fault may be about 98% John's and only 2% Sue's, but she, sor her own sake, should look at and take respoonsibility for her 2%.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Hmmmm...I guess no one knows or cares how bad it is to feel neglected, and why bother to try when you can just lay blame?

 

[Lust Engine]

If either party is looking for "fault" this marriage cannot be saved. Also, it is my conviction that almost every person who claims to be a victim is to some degree responsible for his victimization. He or she who has not examined his cooperation in or responsibility for his victimization both leads the unexamined life and risks further victimization.

The fault may be about 98% John's and only 2% Sue's, but she, sor her own sake, should look at and take respoonsibility for her 2%.

I agree here in concept. Laying blame isn't going to help the situation move forward any more. Acknowledge that something hurtful happened, admit the pain to the other party, have them acknowledge it back and be prepared to move forward.

I'm not saying reaching this point will be easy, but if the marriage is to be saved... they have to reach this juncture and beyond it.

I hope so for their kids' sake too.

 

[capricious_chic]

I agree here in concept. Laying blame isn't going to help the situation move forward any more. Acknowledge that something hurtful happened, admit the pain to the other party, have them acknowledge it back and be prepared to move forward.

I'm not saying reaching this point will be easy, but if the marriage is to be saved... they have to reach this juncture and beyond it.

I hope so for their kids' sake too.

I absolutely agree with LE here.

I have known couples that have went through similar situations and were able to work through them and have a stronger relationship because of it. It took a very long time, and many sleepless nights. Most importantly it took open dialogue between both partners. In my observation, once the "cheater" owned the responsiblity for the error in judgement and acknowledged the pain it has caused w/out trying to blame the other party for it; has been when forgiveness and the continuation of the relationship was achieved. When we can be completely honest with one another and admit to our flaws is when we solidify our relationships. In this situation, if John can own the resposibility for his mistakes, it opens the door for Sue to see beyond it to what has lead up to it and her part in it. Until that time, they will be unable to work on the relationship together because they will both be consumed with being in the "right".


Johnny, I am sorry I just can't see your viewpoint. If John in this senerio felt neglected it was his responsibility to let it be known. Instead, from what we know (which is not much), he chose to work longer hours, more time away from his wife and family. He chose to stay up all night playing on the net instead of laying with his wife and having the chance at shared intimacy. If he felt he was being "driven away", it was/is his responsibility to let his feelings be known. Too many times in relationships, we take for granted that our partner is able to know what we need w/out having to say it to them.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Johnny, I am sorry I just can't see your viewpoint. If John in this senerio felt neglected it was his responsibility to let it be known. Instead, from what we know (which is not much), he chose to work longer hours, more time away from his wife and family. He chose to stay up all night playing on the net instead of laying with his wife and having the chance at shared intimacy. If he felt he was being "driven away", it was/is his responsibility to let his feelings be known. Too many times in relationships, we take for granted that our partner is able to know what we need w/out having to say it to them.

I'm not trying to excuse what he did...and I agree with what you have posted...except, at some point after he owns up to his mistakes, they will both have to examine the dynamics of their relationship, and the responsibility for the condition of the entire marriage belongs to both of them...he can deal with his errors, but they both have to deal with what led up to it.

 

[cowgirl heaven]

So John's not ready yet to go to counseling- there are some other things to do to work to that step. What about some books to read together- I read this article http://www.msnbc.com/news/863482.asp?0cl=c2 yesterday and it reminded me of this discussion.

Even though I don't usually interact much on this site, it has helped me through a very difficult time in my marriage. It has great advice on livening up a marriage through better sex and ways to create more romance (print off some articles and share with your brother and sister-in-law). Someone has to take the first step to working things out. Maybe you could help them plan a weekend together and take care of the kids for them?

 

[Lust Engine]

Maybe you could help them plan a weekend together and take care of the kids for them?

There ya go, Sheath! That could be a great idea to help out the situation. Have their kids come stay with Auntie Sheath for a weekend and let them become re-acquainted again & maybe they can sort some things out.

(Auntie Sheath- what was I thinking?)

 

[cowgirl heaven]

BE a doer- who cares what shit started what shit. You either try and move on or you're history.

Going to the counselor isn't for everyone- especially if you are being forced. So try something else be open and most of all be creative

 

[Guest]

"So…Sue talked to me about this and asked for my advice. I told her about this board. However, she isn’t posting here herself because of the things John did, something about how she does not want to give him any ammunition when she did nothing wrong in the first place. (John is getting pretty upset about being "under her thumb" and I guess he is looking for some way to fight back, I don’t know…) Thus, I am here, posting for my dear sister-in-law."

The hubby apparently has no intention of cleaning up his act - at least not in the shortrun. Maybe he's justified in cheating, maybe not............as Chele (sp?) said, sometimes marriages go stale, and I know there are many, many women who put the kids first, last, and always to the exclusion of the hubby and the detriment of the marriage - no wonder some men cheat! .....BUT...................

I truly believe that as women, we DO have the upperhand, set the "rules" (<<poor choice of words I know, [men don't get angry with me here...] but best I could come up with) in the relationship and "teach" men (and other people as well) how to treat us.

I have to wonder about her..........she is turning to YOU for advice and even has YOU doing the posting FOR HER here on the board. "Ammunition" aside - what's wrong - can't she type???? She has opted not to work (not a bad thing at all, but sometimes the motives behind such a move ["for the children"] are bogus - they just don't wanna work and prefer to be "taken care of")...Is this woman helpless? I mean I could be wrong, but she seems unwillling to do much for herself..........except perhaps enlist others to take care of her and do her dirty work?

Perhaps it's "grow-up time" for Sue.

My advice??????????????

Grow a set of balls, lady. Look at your culpability in the relationship and take responsiblity for any of your actions which may have contributed to his filandering and then make the appropriate changes......second..........

quit checking up on him - that's demeaning to YOU as a woman (AND the stress of doing so must be thoroughly debilitating)! You need to take the damn computer and LITERALLY toss it out the window, making sure it lands hard enough to shatter into a billion pieces, while simultaneously telling hubby he can go elsewhere (the public library, perhaps??) for his internet jollies.......AND third.........

give him a timeline in which he is to clean-up his act and go to counseling with you or he'll be the next to be tossed out, AND in the same fashion. AND...........

in the meantime she should start quietly stockpiling the assets (my best friend bought a full length mink coat!) and find the best damn divorce attorney that hubby's money can buy!

As a famous comedian says "That's my opinion, but I could be wrong..."

-X-

P.S. - Oh yeah - Sheath - do YOU really wanna be dragged in to the middle of someone else's crumbling mariage? Not a place I'd wanna spend too much time hanging out. -x-

P.S.S. If it comes to that SHE should NOT be the one to leave the house, the "abode" she should throw him out. She has the kids to consider, etc. and must stay in the house, with possession being 9/10 of the law and all..... -x-

 

[SexyChele]

Oh yes - AND I assume Sheath that you are a man (Sorry, I didn't check your profile), if you are, my advice to YOU is to watch out for women who run to another man to get them out of a jam with their current relationship........women like that are ALWAYS trouble! -x-

Just for the record - Sheath is a female.

 

[Guest]

Just for the record - Sheath is a female.

Oops! My mistake. Thanks SC!

-X-

 

[Amfig]

Women set the rules? I rather always thought of marriage as a contractual relationship based on mutual respect and affection. No "rulebook" in my household.

 

[Amfig]

Come to think of it

I do know and know of several women who had the upper hand, made the rules and taught a lot. Ironic, they all have the same name. They are called "My Ex."