Calling all HVAC Repairmen - Help me understand

[bailadora]

My A/C unit suddenly crapped out yesterday and when I called someone out to look at it, I was told that the module that runs the motor had been fried, probably due to a power surge from recent storms. The good news is that the unit is only two and a half years old and the parts are still under warranty. What I'm having trouble understanding is the cost of the labor.

The company that I called to fix my A/C quoted me $250 dollars to replace the module. That seems to be a lot of money for what is essentially a one hour job. When pressed, the owner of the company said they don't charge by the hour for labor, they charge a flat rate per job. I did call a few other companies in this area (Treasure Coast), to see if the quote was in line, and found that charging a flat rate per job seems to be a fairly standard practice for this region. It just doesn't make sense to me and no one I spoke with could give me a satisfactory answer as to the rationale behind this pricing system. I got the stock "this is what we charge" answer.

Back home on the Gulf Coast, this job would cost me no more than $150. My dad sells A/C parts to licensed repairmen. So while he doesn't do actual repairs, he has a pretty good feel for ballpark estimates on labor, in addition to parts. I'm not very happy with what seems (to me) to be a huge price differential, but they've got me by the short hairs. It's hot and we want the damn thing repaired.

That said, if any of my fellow Litizens who are in the A/C biz could help shed some light, I'd greatly appreciate it. It's not going to help me in the short term, but maybe advice you offer could either help me better negotiate* with these guys in the future, or at least, help me to feel like I'm not getting ripped off.

*Note: I realize that repair people and companies have bills to pay just like anyone else and I'm NOT looking to screw anyone out of a fair price for their work. I just don't want to get screwed myself and it sure feels like that's what's happening right now.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Find an apartment maintenance dude willing to do it for $50 or $100, and buy the part. Its easy work. But $250 is outrageous. Check around, someones got a hubby or boyfriend who can do it. Or someone you know lives in an apartment and can connect you with a maintenance dude.

 

[bailadora]

Find an apartment maintenance dude willing to do it for $50 or $100, and buy the part. Its easy work. But $250 is outrageous. Check around, someones got a hubby or boyfriend who can do it. Or someone you know lives in an apartment and can connect you with a maintenance dude.

I considered that, but I'm concerned about licensing issues and how that might affect my parts warranty with the manufacturer. A friend of mine is a realtor, and she gave me a lead on a really knowledgeable repairman who does a lot of work for her. But...he's no longer HVAC licensed and he flat out told me he wouldn't/couldn't do warranty work.

 

[talikat]

My husband has his own home repair business and I asked him if the price you were quoted is fair and he said that it was a good price for what you described as the problem.

 

[pplwatching]

With respect to the rationale, I actually understand this. I'm not in the HVAC biz, but have discussed this with our HVAC company. Customer's don't like estimates. They'll ask for one, but what they really want is a quote. The problem is that there are a lot of variables. Often times there's rust, corroded contacts, screwed up prior work, and other surprises that aren't evident until you start the work but run up the cost of the job.

Customers don't like surprises. They want the work to cost exactly what the company estimated (forgetting the definition of the word estimate). Customers also don't trust contractors to do the work in the least possible amount of time, and will complain about perceived wastes of time. The question is, what is a reasonable amount of time for a job to take and how can a contractor be fairly compensated for unanticipated problems in the customer's equipment beyond their control, without running up the cost and pissing off the customer?

Now add overhead to those costs. Do you live in a state in which contractors have high expenses for labor, fuel, taxes, and insurance? There's also the daily changing costs of fuel, and travel time because of traffic and construction. Is the drive to the average customer particularly long or time consuming? Most contractors don't get paid if they have to come back to warranty a part, so that gets factored in too.

Flat rates are used because the law of averages helps keep things predictable for everyone. If the job (including travel) takes longer than anticipated for one customer, the same job might take less time than anticipated for another customer. On average the company can manage to make a profit. Many people will say, "Just charge me exactly what it costs to fix my unit" but those same people will complain loudly when a previous bad repair causes the job to take two hours longer than anticipated. Flat rates protect everyone.

That's the thinking anyway. Sorry to hear that the cost is high, but if that's what all of the contractors are charging then it's likely that that's the actual cost of servicing that kind of repair when you add it all up. Otherwise, there'd be guys (and gals) out there charging less.

 

[Emerson40]

pplwatching covered most the points I was going to make.

$250.00 may seem a little steep, but is a fairly standard call out charge, or as we refer to it in my business (not HVAC, but in the construction / renovation / restoration field), a minumum charge. Even our high volume customers / larger accounts are billed $225.00 minimum charges on smaller jobs and service work.

As mentioned, there are overheads, there are costs for licensing / certification (sometimes there are anual fees for maintaning these). Insurance and fuel are costs that constantly going up for qualified trades people as well. And there isn't anything wrong with making a modest profit - that's what folks go into business for. Although most contractors purchase major supplies / tools on a job by job basis, most also maintain an inventory of tools and supplies that are used regularly.

There is some benefit to dealing with a reputable company with qualified and certified trades people. They will backup and warranty their repairs. Every week we hear from someone who needs us to come out a "fix" the work of someone who was cheaper, who left the customer with what we call a "taillight warranty" on their work. Once their taillights are no longer visable when they drive off, so goes their warranty. In some cases these folks calling in are people we had quoted $250.00 min charge, and they had opted to go the cheaper route.

That being said, some of my guys do work off the books and for cash in the evenings and weekends. There is of course savings realized, but the trade off for this is no receipt or supporting paperwork for the repair / service, which may be required if you are trying to be re-imbursed for parts or a portion of the labor under warranty.

I would weigh the cost of purchasing the part yourself and paying cash to a qualified / capable person to perform the repair against getting it done under warranty. Go with the option that makes the best sense to you financially.

One last bit for thought, probably does apply in this instance.... In some cases warranties, or parts of warranties (usually related to things that normally wear with use and time, under normal conditions) are prorated, and the portion you would have to pay for parts / labor increases the further along into the warranty you go. In some of these cases, not going the warranty route is the more cost efficient option.

 

[Sir Victor]

My parent's furnace went out recently and they are not on a service plan. They did just the minimum part of a tune up (replaced a $5 nozzle) that was needed to get it going again and charged total $144. The work took him about 15 min but he waited 20 min more for the house to heat up. I asked the fellow to do and bill us for a full tune up and he claimed that he did not have time which was fine but I did not actually believe him since he came out so quickly - he obviously was not busy working other jobs. I called the office and they wanted another, roughly, $250 to do their standard tune up, $80 of which was their standard minimum to make the trip out and "diagnose" the system. I told them the repair man was just here and they are long time customers so the service manager dropped it to $100 to complete the tune-up which I thought was reasonable.

If you use your fuel supplier to do repairs, assuming that you've checked them out and they are good, then you have some leverage in them losing your fuel business if they try to gouge you. Check the BBB for ratings, not %100 reliable but it is a start and I've seen some with F ratings.

I don't care what the business model is, that is probably a 15 minute job since it has already been diagnosed. Also, they often misdiagnose things so who knows if that controller board is really the problem. Fuel suppliers are making plenty of profit on selling us fuel so I would not hesitate to negotiate with them. The person answering service calls put me through to the manager very quickly and he suggested the lower $100 fee within about 3 sentences into the discussion. Obviously, it did not hurt them and they want the business.

I don't know what the previous poster is talking about with a $250 call out charge, our oil company charges $80 to come out diagnose the problem and determine what needs to be done to fix it. Actually, what he is talking about is maximizing their profits or gouging which is so common these days.

I have friends in the auto repair business and they tell me that they like to charge the "book time" when it is generous since a good mechanic can often do the job in significantly less time. Read here about how they might cut corners:
http://autorepair.about.com/od/yourmechanic/a/def_flat_rate.htm

I'm not in the AC business but let's just say I'm very handy.

 

[astuffedshirt_perv]

How long is warranty going to run? If you are well into it, you may be less concerned about voiding it. Second, it is unclear if and how the warranty people would determine that it was a non-warrenty repair. Assuming it fails again, you will again pay $250...at some point, you might as well void the warranty.

Finally: "My A/C unit suddenly crapped ... was told that the module that runs the motor had been fried,"

typically the AC unit outside has a capacitor fired fan motor. the capacitor, roughly the size of a vitamin bottle, is TRIVIAL to change. Mine did the same thing, I bought the capacitor for $45 and installed it in 10 minutes. Find the capacitor, google the number, and buy one. YMMV

 

[bailadora]

How long is warranty going to run? If you are well into it, you may be less concerned about voiding it. Second, it is unclear if and how the warranty people would determine that it was a non-warrenty repair. Assuming it fails again, you will again pay $250...at some point, you might as well void the warranty.

Finally: "My A/C unit suddenly crapped ... was told that the module that runs the motor had been fried,"

typically the AC unit outside has a capacitor fired fan motor. the capacitor, roughly the size of a vitamin bottle, is TRIVIAL to change. Mine did the same thing, I bought the capacitor for $45 and installed it in 10 minutes. Find the capacitor, google the number, and buy one. YMMV

It's my understanding that most a/c manufacturers will warrant compressors for 10 years, with the rest of the parts being warranted for 5 years from initial installation, not inclusive of labor. We are 2.5 years into the five year warranty. I forgot to ask my dad what the module itself would cost, but if it's anywhere near the cost in the link below, it pays to claim the warranty on the parts. Anyway, while I was fully expecting to have to pay for labor, I didn't expect it to be as much as it was.

I wasn't clear in my first post, but it was the module that controls the motor to the blower that went on the fritz. It looks like this. I'll grant that I'm no hvac tech, but it sure didn't look like a very involved repair. He basically removed the panel to the handler (which is inside the house, in it's own, specially built closet, so it's easy to access), removed the cage, disconnected the old module and installed the new one - all that in less than 15 minutes. I'll grant that I'm no HVAC tech, but installing the new module looked as simple as placing a plug into a wall socket. He simply snapped the plastic "socket" containing the ends of the wiring into place on the motor, fit the module into place and then replaced the cage. That's it. Hardly seems like $250 worth of labor.

I don't know what the previous poster is talking about with a $250 call out charge, our oil company charges $80 to come out diagnose the problem and determine what needs to be done to fix it. Actually, what he is talking about is maximizing their profits or gouging which is so common these days.

Heating systems run on electric here, so arguing with the provider won't do me much good. There's only one electric company in the region, so....yeah. But that high of a call out charge does seem excessive to me as well. The fee to come look at/diagnose the unit was 65 dollars. That part, I understand. Gas, cost of wear and tear on the vehicles, etc. I was told that fee would be "deducted" from the cost of labor if we decided to proceed with service through the company. Yeah - that $250 was after my "discount".

 

[bailadora]

With respect to the rationale, I actually understand this. I'm not in the HVAC biz, but have discussed this with our HVAC company. Customer's don't like estimates. They'll ask for one, but what they really want is a quote. The problem is that there are a lot of variables. Often times there's rust, corroded contacts, screwed up prior work, and other surprises that aren't evident until you start the work but run up the cost of the job.

Customers don't like surprises. They want the work to cost exactly what the company estimated (forgetting the definition of the word estimate).

Some people may be be like that. But...I'm a bit different. I tend to ask for worst case scenario, that way if it comes to that, I'm already prepared. Since my dad is in the biz, I already knew the different avenues this repair could take.

Customers also don't trust contractors to do the work in the least possible amount of time, and will complain about perceived wastes of time. The question is, what is a reasonable amount of time for a job to take and how can a contractor be fairly compensated for unanticipated problems in the customer's equipment beyond their control, without running up the cost and pissing off the customer?

Yeah. It's unfortunate that a few bad apples in the bunch have made the general consumer leery. Maybe it's because I've always had an insider's "edge" when it comes to a/c repair work, but I've never worried about this until we moved. The company I used back home bought from the parts wholesaler my dad works for and the owner of that company also knows my dad. I sincerely doubt I received a special break wrt to labor costs ,but given that connection, there was never doubt in my mind that what I was quoted was more than fair.

Here, the MO is much, much different from what I'm used to and I can't say that I like it.

 

[Emerson40]

I don't know what the previous poster is talking about with a $250 call out charge, our oil company charges $80 to come out diagnose the problem and determine what needs to be done to fix it. Actually, what he is talking about is maximizing their profits or gouging which is so common these days.

Perhaps I did not write my post clear. We do not charge $250 to diagnose. We charge nothing to diagnose. We also don't charge for providing estimates. We charge a $250 minimum to fix / repair / service.
If it something very minor - some small adjustment, re-connection, tightening of something, etc - the tech does that during the site visit, at no charge.

Something else we are seeing in the last while are some trades advertising a lower minimum charge, but tacking extras on the invoice such as fuel surcharges, pick-up / delivery charges (if they need to pick parts or product prior to attending jobsite), enviro fees, and additional charges for mileage and sundries / misc supplies. These, added to a $150 - $175 minimum charge soon equal more than $225 - $250 charges which are the norm in this marketplace.

That could be considered gouging, deceptive advertising at the very least.

Gouging with a $250 minimum, don't think so. There is a "street" price out there that keeps everybody competetive. If you are gouging, regardless of service levels, the phone will eventually stop ringing.

When we send someone out, they are not "handy". They are qualified, trained, and certified in their field. They are also never there for just 15 minutes. It is not uncommon for us to be 1 1/2 to 3 hours on site, prepping, completing work, cleaning up after ourselves, and going over repairs with the home / business owner to ensure satisfaction.

Sorry if I did not explain this clearer in my post.

Something else I don't think anyone has mentioned, some handy folks do a youtube search for what they are wanting to repair / do. A neighbor of ours was quoted $600 (parts and labor) to replace a motor in their clothes dryer (out of warranty). He search youtube and found a helpful video, for the very dryer model, that showed step by step how to complete the replacement. $175.00 for the motor, some tools borrowed from me, and in just over an hour he had completed the job. $425 still in his jeans.

Perhaps there are videos out there for A/C repairs. I have also had some success completing repairs around my place with advice and instruction found on forums and message boards related to the product / task at hand.

Sir Victor, regarding flat rate or book rate in the auto repair business. I have few friends in the business. They have days when the make good coin - bill out 15 to 20 hours in an eight hour day. The dealers often use two different set of rates - one for the public / retail repairs, and one for warranty. What bills out at 1 1/2 hours retail may only bill 45 minutes if warranty. Even if the job turns difficult and takes 3 to 5 hours. These same guys who had 15 to 20 hour days have billed out 3 hours in an 8 hour work day when dealing with some stubborn, hard to dignose warranty issues. If pulling wrenches at a dealership, it pays to be in the Service Manager's good books.

 

[twister947]

I just looked up the check stub---I paid $240 to replace a module that controls the defrost cycle on the outside unit. That included the cost of the part...I don't remember how much that was, but it was substantial.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Perhaps I did not write my post clear. We do not charge $250 to diagnose. We charge nothing to diagnose. We also don't charge for providing estimates. We charge a $250 minimum to fix / repair / service.
If it something very minor - some small adjustment, re-connection, tightening of something, etc - the tech does that during the site visit, at no charge.

Something else we are seeing in the last while are some trades advertising a lower minimum charge, but tacking extras on the invoice such as fuel surcharges, pick-up / delivery charges (if they need to pick parts or product prior to attending jobsite), enviro fees, and additional charges for mileage and sundries / misc supplies. These, added to a $150 - $175 minimum charge soon equal more than $225 - $250 charges which are the norm in this marketplace.

That could be considered gouging, deceptive advertising at the very least.

Gouging with a $250 minimum, don't think so. There is a "street" price out there that keeps everybody competetive. If you are gouging, regardless of service levels, the phone will eventually stop ringing.

When we send someone out, they are not "handy". They are qualified, trained, and certified in their field. They are also never there for just 15 minutes. It is not uncommon for us to be 1 1/2 to 3 hours on site, prepping, completing work, cleaning up after ourselves, and going over repairs with the home / business owner to ensure satisfaction.

Sorry if I did not explain this clearer in my post.

Something else I don't think anyone has mentioned, some handy folks do a youtube search for what they are wanting to repair / do. A neighbor of ours was quoted $600 (parts and labor) to replace a motor in their clothes dryer (out of warranty). He search youtube and found a helpful video, for the very dryer model, that showed step by step how to complete the replacement. $175.00 for the motor, some tools borrowed from me, and in just over an hour he had completed the job. $425 still in his jeans.

Perhaps there are videos out there for A/C repairs. I have also had some success completing repairs around my place with advice and instruction found on forums and message boards related to the product / task at hand.

Sir Victor, regarding flat rate or book rate in the auto repair business. I have few friends in the business. They have days when the make good coin - bill out 15 to 20 hours in an eight hour day. The dealers often use two different set of rates - one for the public / retail repairs, and one for warranty. What bills out at 1 1/2 hours retail may only bill 45 minutes if warranty. Even if the job turns difficult and takes 3 to 5 hours. These same guys who had 15 to 20 hour days have billed out 3 hours in an 8 hour work day when dealing with some stubborn, hard to dignose warranty issues. If pulling wrenches at a dealership, it pays to be in the Service Manager's good books.

SOP is to sit in the attic for 30 minutes, smoking, so the gouged customer doesn't call the office raising hell. Around here the hvac guys got laws passed so schlubs cant buy parts. So my son buys them in his state and ships them to me. Or I get them from friends who do apartment service work.

 

[Andromeda_Blue]

I don't know what the going rate may be, but I own a home in central North Carolina and live in TX, and I know stuff is infinitely cheaper labor-wise down here than up there, so the price difference almost sounds reasonable (not right, just reasonable). The A/C went out in the house in NC when I lived there and would've cost $350 to fix without the home warranty (it cost me $65) - and while I'm no HVAC pro either it seemed like a $25 job to me....although since it went out in July I'd have almost happily paid the $350 even as I'd have cussed under my breath while writing the check.

 

[njlauren]

Perhaps I did not write my post clear. We do not charge $250 to diagnose. We charge nothing to diagnose. We also don't charge for providing estimates. We charge a $250 minimum to fix / repair / service.
If it something very minor - some small adjustment, re-connection, tightening of something, etc - the tech does that during the site visit, at no charge.

Something else we are seeing in the last while are some trades advertising a lower minimum charge, but tacking extras on the invoice such as fuel surcharges, pick-up / delivery charges (if they need to pick parts or product prior to attending jobsite), enviro fees, and additional charges for mileage and sundries / misc supplies. These, added to a $150 - $175 minimum charge soon equal more than $225 - $250 charges which are the norm in this marketplace.

That could be considered gouging, deceptive advertising at the very least.

Gouging with a $250 minimum, don't think so. There is a "street" price out there that keeps everybody competetive. If you are gouging, regardless of service levels, the phone will eventually stop ringing.

When we send someone out, they are not "handy". They are qualified, trained, and certified in their field. They are also never there for just 15 minutes. It is not uncommon for us to be 1 1/2 to 3 hours on site, prepping, completing work, cleaning up after ourselves, and going over repairs with the home / business owner to ensure satisfaction.

Sorry if I did not explain this clearer in my post.

Something else I don't think anyone has mentioned, some handy folks do a youtube search for what they are wanting to repair / do. A neighbor of ours was quoted $600 (parts and labor) to replace a motor in their clothes dryer (out of warranty). He search youtube and found a helpful video, for the very dryer model, that showed step by step how to complete the replacement. $175.00 for the motor, some tools borrowed from me, and in just over an hour he had completed the job. $425 still in his jeans.

Perhaps there are videos out there for A/C repairs. I have also had some success completing repairs around my place with advice and instruction found on forums and message boards related to the product / task at hand.

Sir Victor, regarding flat rate or book rate in the auto repair business. I have few friends in the business. They have days when the make good coin - bill out 15 to 20 hours in an eight hour day. The dealers often use two different set of rates - one for the public / retail repairs, and one for warranty. What bills out at 1 1/2 hours retail may only bill 45 minutes if warranty. Even if the job turns difficult and takes 3 to 5 hours. These same guys who had 15 to 20 hour days have billed out 3 hours in an 8 hour work day when dealing with some stubborn, hard to dignose warranty issues. If pulling wrenches at a dealership, it pays to be in the Service Manager's good books.

Warranty work is paid for by the manufacturer, and they generally don't pay all that much for repairs, often the deal gets screwed by the amount they are paid. The point of flat rate books was to take some of the uncertainty out of repairs, hourly charges can jump up pretty quickly if something turns out difficult, flat rate gives the client assurance they will pay what you say..*****blem is, you can pay more then you would hourly, if it goes fast.

A lot of people claim it isn't worth it, but the service plans on heaters and such can save you a lot of money. They aren't that expensive, and when one of my furnaces goes and it is fixed free of charge, versus min 100 bucks to come out, it is def worth it. Both my central AC units croaked (don't ever buy sears central AC, they die right after the warranty expires, and their installation people all seem to be refugees from the home for the feeble minded!), and they couldn't be fixed, the compressors went, and it would mean replacing them (I switched to room a/c's, works fine for us).