Bury your story, right?

[Le Jacquelope]

As in your message.

Basically what that means if you are writing about global warming, the goal is to hide the theme within the story. Use metaphors and intriguing but distracting characters. See: Animal Farm. Entertain readers first and make them think they know the theme of your story, while others find cause to dig for the real underlying theme.

Is this the way to write a story? I would say so when it comes to themes that are potentially preachy. It makes a killer novel, but is it worth all that for a Lit submission?

How many people try to bury the real theme under a seemingly airy "outer" theme? I'm heavily intrigued by this because of the challenge. All good books I come back to read over and over again, follow this pattern.

 

[Fatwa_Morgana]

Of course, it is a time-honored practice. Bury layer under layer under layer. A mystery wrapped in a riddle. If you are successful, nobody will ever understand what you are driving at! LOL Morgana

 

[slyc_willie]

Better to just write some smut and let people think you had a deeper meaning in mind . . .

 

[Lalah]

Animal Farm is probably a bad example, I'd say it was hardly subtle.

 

[3113]

Animal Farm is probably a bad example, I'd say it was hardly subtle.

I was going to say the same thing. If Animal Farm is "burying" it's story I'd hate to see what's obvious. Animal Farm drops an anvil on the head.

Usually when stories do what you're saying, Jaque,, which is they use the story to send an unambiguous message, there's nothing buried about it. They have a strong position on the subject and they are *tell* you what they want you to think. It's a method of propaganda as old as Aesop. Here's the lesson presented in an entertaining way so you learn it and remember it and never forget it!

Such stories do not usually present the situation with all it's pros and cons and then allow you to make up your own mind. Such stories tell you, without much ambiguity, that Communist Russia is bad, or Racism is bad (Classic Star Trek's famous story with two men who have half-white, half-black faces but dislike each other because one has the darkness on the right side, one has it on the left side....), or that it's really bad for human beings to be wasteful and destructive of the planet (Wall-E has that current message), etc.

If they "buried" the message it'd be lost, and when people are trying to get across such messages that's the last thing they want. Now there *are* messages that a writer interweaves into a story that are subtle, and only caught by readers on a second or third read. These are usually what elevate stories to the hallowed level of "literature." Such messages, or themes usually are subtle and complex and hardly an anvil over the head.

The message in such stories is rarely something so blatant and simple as "Communism is bad!" or "recycle!" It's usually something quite intreguing, complex and non-judgemental. Like "We all play roles in our lives and sometimes this is not a bad thing...." or "there's a fine line between love and hate," or "Is marriage for love always a good thing? I marriage for comfort and security always a bad thing?"

THESE are the sort of "buried" messages that a good writer tries to infuse in a story. The other is just a form of propaganda. It might be well done or not, but it's not often more than that. If the wrier/creator wants it to be more than that, then they have to be very careful, and work very hard on it.

 

[bisexualsmoker]

It's an awfully good practice to use.It definitly adds a certain depth to
a writers stories.It also helps to make the stories re-readable so to speak.
You can't lose if you do it right.

 

[Stella_Omega]

What 3113 said!

The "literature" way to show the evils of Communism, would be to write a novel that simply takes place within a communist country. Let the novel be about love and the quest for happiness, as so many are. Let the people hardly even notice their environment, and never realise that their way of life has compounded their struggle.

For your global warming idea you could write about two people meeting and fucking-- but within the heat and unstable weather, and wish that Hawaii's smaller islands still existed. Just make it a given state of affairs.

Yes, it's worth trying, even if only for a lit submission; it's one more way of stretching your writerly skills.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

I was going to say the same thing. If Animal Farm is "burying" it's story I'd hate to see what's obvious. Animal Farm drops an anvil on the head.

Yeah, I meant to drop that as an example of using metaphor, but it's certainly not subtle.

Usually when stories do what you're saying, Jaque,, which is they use the story to send an unambiguous message, there's nothing buried about it. They have a strong position on the subject and they are *tell* you what they want you to think. It's a method of propaganda as old as Aesop. Here's the lesson presented in an entertaining way so you learn it and remember it and never forget it!

Such stories do not usually present the situation with all it's pros and cons and then allow you to make up your own mind. Such stories tell you, without much ambiguity, that Communist Russia is bad, or Racism is bad (Classic Star Trek's famous story with two men who have half-white, half-black faces but dislike each other because one has the darkness on the right side, one has it on the left side....), or that it's really bad for human beings to be wasteful and destructive of the planet (Wall-E has that current message), etc.

If they "buried" the message it'd be lost, and when people are trying to get across such messages that's the last thing they want. Now there *are* messages that a writer interweaves into a story that are subtle, and only caught by readers on a second or third read. These are usually what elevate stories to the hallowed level of "literature." Such messages, or themes usually are subtle and complex and hardly an anvil over the head.

I'd certainly like to talk to people who can do this and figure out how they do it. I've got themes in some of my stories that would sound preachy if thrown out there outright.

The message in such stories is rarely something so blatant and simple as "Communism is bad!" or "recycle!" It's usually something quite intreguing, complex and non-judgemental. Like "We all play roles in our lives and sometimes this is not a bad thing...." or "there's a fine line between love and hate," or "Is marriage for love always a good thing? I marriage for comfort and security always a bad thing?"

THESE are the sort of "buried" messages that a good writer tries to infuse in a story. The other is just a form of propaganda. It might be well done or not, but it's not often more than that. If the wrier/creator wants it to be more than that, then they have to be very careful, and work very hard on it.

Are you burying the message there or are you making the reader feel like both sides are given equal respect? I think the latter is actually easier to do (Marvel comics does it a lot where comic books are concerned) and achieves a great effect with the reader.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Marvel comics is literature? Marvel comics?

 

[Boxlicker101]

As in your message.

Basically what that means if you are writing about global warming, the goal is to hide the theme within the story. Use metaphors and intriguing but distracting characters. See: Animal Farm. Entertain readers first and make them think they know the theme of your story, while others find cause to dig for the real underlying theme.

Is this the way to write a story? I would say so when it comes to themes that are potentially preachy. It makes a killer novel, but is it worth all that for a Lit submission?

How many people try to bury the real theme under a seemingly airy "outer" theme? I'm heavily intrigued by this because of the challenge. All good books I come back to read over and over again, follow this pattern.

Personally, I just write stroke, and don't try to send any messages.

At the same time, the stories do advocate things like safe sex and sexual equality in every way and are very sympathetic to gays and lesbians and TS. I certainly won't feel bad if people are influenced in those directions, but I basically just write stroke.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I R not smrt enuff too doo dat. Id R hrd enuff jus ritin' der story widout gettin' awl preechy 'boud tings.

But if you believe in something strongly enough it will occupy your thoughts to the point where it will come up subliminally in your writing. So just write and let the thoughts flow as they will. The message will come across.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Marvel comics is literature? Marvel comics?

"Where comic books are concerned." Meaning, I was stepping outside the realm of literature for a portion of a sentence.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

I R not smrt enuff too doo dat. Id R hrd enuff jus ritin' der story widout gettin' awl preechy 'boud tings.

But if you believe in something strongly enough it will occupy your thoughts to the point where it will come up subliminally in your writing. So just write and let the thoughts flow as they will. The message will come across.

I want it to come across without being preachy.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Marvel comics is literature? Marvel comics?

I would consider Marvel Comics to be literature. Not great literature, but literature all the same.

I would bet that more people read Spiderman than read MacBeth.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I want it to come across without being preachy.

Precisely. So write about something you believe in very strongly and then when you edit, try to tone down the sermon. Should work . . .

Tell me, does this preach? It contains several things I believe in very strongly.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Precisely. So write about something you believe in very strongly and then when you edit, try to tone down the sermon. Should work . . .

Tell me, does this preach? It contains several things I believe in very strongly.

You know, I'm not sure if it's preachy, I would say it's not, but I'll say one thing, you sure know how to make the reader relate to your objections to swapping in the beginning. I'm not a swapper, but if I was, I would still feel for you there. And in the end, too.

And I see you also know some things about life insurance. Should I tell you the tale of the healthy young guy with a girlfriend and child of his own who worked at Burger King, got a 2 million dollar policy, waited 2 years, and then offed himself? The insurance company got stung bad and had to pay out to the (then) wife and kid. Talk about sticking it to The Man...

 

[voluptuary_manque]

And I see you also know some things about life insurance. Should I tell you the tale of the healthy young guy with a girlfriend and child of his own who worked at Burger King, got a 2 million dollar policy, waited 2 years, and then offed himself? The insurance company got stung bad and had to pay out to the (then) wife and kid. Talk about sticking it to The Man...

"All I try t'do, alla my life, was take care of my family . . . " But that's a pretty drastic way to do it.

 

[maggot420]

I would consider Marvel Comics to be literature. Not great literature, but literature all the same.

I would bet that more people read Spiderman than read MacBeth.

I wonder how many read both. It's interesting to me that I am still trying to understand shakespeare and apprecitate it for that reason while spiderman has its own place amongst my favourites.

It makes my ass twitch when people start talking about what is good and what is bad and what is great literature. I've read what people consider to be great and thought it was crap. I've read what some people consider bad and while I can agree that it might not be the greatest ever written, I still on occassion, have taken more from it than some classics that I have read. How important are the opinions of others when it comes to assigning value? How do we assign value to literature? What is great? Maybe it's only important what we take away from it, what it gives us, what it makes us feel and there is nothing more subjective than that.
Marvel comics is literature. For some, it is great literature.

I think great literature is not maybe so dependant upon what is embedded in it or buried in the sub text or even how it is done. All of that can occur by accident. Don't worry about writing something great, worry about how you feel about what you write. Use your emotion, not your intellect and the greatest of stories will be told. People have a habit of seeing what they want to see in almost everything anyway.

 

[3113]

Marvel comics is literature? Marvel comics?

Don't dis Marvel comics! http://semanticdrift.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/wolverine14.JPG

It makes my ass twitch when people start talking about what is good and what is bad and what is great literature.

We're not talking about what's good or bad, but rather what is "Literature" and what is a good/bad story. Literature *does* have to have more to it than just "Communism is bad!"--but that doesn't mean that a story which says as much is a bad story. Nor does it mean that the story which has more and is "literature" is going to be a good, enjoyable story. It might be awful.

So you can stop twitching your ass.

Look, Jaques, what this comes down to is very simple. Do you want to give the reader a public service announcement? An after-school special? Or let me ask you this: How many readers of your story do you think are ignorant of global warming and need to be reminded of it? How many of them do you think want a lesson in how to recycle as they're reading their erotica? If they stop reading your story because they don't want or need to be told about global warming...have you done any good?

There are comic books out there, Marvel and otherwise, which are great literature. And ones which are fun stories. There are also those where some black superhero saves the life of a white bigot and whitey gets a long lecture on the evils of racism. I *PROMISE* you that such comics, whether they be Spiderman or Batman are rarely--very, very, very rarely: (1) a good read, (2) a memorable read, (3) literary--in either a good or bad way, (4) Likely to make a Klans man join the NAACP.

Preaching can be done in ways that are fun and entertaining and even that make the reader think. But I would never, ever recommend a lesson plan for a story. Tell the story, the real story, of what happens when character A met character B (at a recycling center, or at the shrinking ice poles trying to save a polar bears, or wherever), let that story go where it needs to go and say what it needs to say about love, friendship, differing opinions on global warming and how they affect an erotic encounter, and let any other message be background. It'll stick with the reader better that way.

 

[maggot420]

So you can stop twitching your ass.

.

As long as you're sure it's ok. I will then.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

We're not talking about what's good or bad, but rather what is "Literature" and what is a good/bad story. Literature *does* have to have more to it than just "Communism is bad!"--but that doesn't mean that a story which says as much is a bad story. Nor does it mean that the story which has more and is "literature" is going to be a good, enjoyable story. It might be awful.

Is it just me or is "what constitutes literature?" a really long-lived question?

Look, Jaques, what this comes down to is very simple.
...

If they stop reading your story because they don't want or need to be told about global warming...have you done any good?

My sentiments (and the point I was trying to get across initially) exactly. If I were writing about that, I would want it to sneak under the floorboards where the reader would notice it later. In an erotic story, however, that just doesn't look feasible. It's hard to point out the simple differences between the climate of today and the climate of decades past, without crossing the preachy line. In going back and reading the Earth Day submissions, I notice the winners were usually the ones who came close to crossing the preachy line.

There are comic books out there, Marvel and otherwise, which are great literature. And ones which are fun stories. There are also those where some black superhero saves the life of a white bigot and whitey gets a long lecture on the evils of racism. I *PROMISE* you that such comics, whether they be Spiderman or Batman are rarely--very, very, very rarely: (1) a good read, (2) a memorable read, (3) literary--in either a good or bad way, (4) Likely to make a Klans man join the NAACP.

I could actually rescue that story in a makeover-style re-write.

Preaching can be done in ways that are fun and entertaining and even that make the reader think. But I would never, ever recommend a lesson plan for a story. Tell the story, the real story, of what happens when character A met character B (at a recycling center, or at the shrinking ice poles trying to save a polar bears, or wherever), let that story go where it needs to go and say what it needs to say about love, friendship, differing opinions on global warming and how they affect an erotic encounter, and let any other message be background. It'll stick with the reader better that way.

Well said.

 

[Stella_Omega]

As long as you're sure it's ok. I will then.

Yeah, well-- don't stop on my account.

 

[rgraham666]

Don't dis Marvel comics!

Personally, I thought Watchmen was one of the best things I'd ever read.

 

[SlickTony]

I'm trying to think whether I put any kind of message in any of my stories, and you know, except for the swipe I aimed at Florida developers at the end of Panic, Chapter 3, I can't think of a one. Had a ball with product placement in Terry's Last Day at Work, though.

I just tell stories about the people in my head, and if there's a message, it's incidental.

 

[DeeZire]

There's a similar technique in songwriting. You show the action, and the results of the action, but you don't reflect on the consequences - you let the reader do the reflecting. Dylan's 'Blowing in the Wind' is a similar technique. Pose questions without answers, and let the listener fill in the blanks.

The flashfic thread is a recent example of my pedestrian attempt at this technique. In 100 words, I set up a situation with the potential for an undesirable conclusion, but left it up to the reader to decide what would happen. This, hopefully, would make the reader ponder issues like personal responsibility and integrity (probably the wrong theme for a site like LIT.)

I much prefer a story that makes the reader think, but that's not always the goal of the LIT reader. Good for you if you can pull it off (hopefully better than I did!)

(OT - I wish more AH'ers would contribute to the flashfic thread. It's fun! It's quick! And there's no mess to clean up afterwards!)