Boyfriends

[entitled]

Good man, Blacksnake, for supplying the very needed material support. The point at which a woman leaves an abusive relationship (or attempts to) is one of the points at which serious violence is most likely. A good "escape plan" and a stalwart friend are the best preparation.

Shanglan

Good equus.

*pets*

 

[BlackSnake]

*after much snipping*

This is why i'm trying to get a job, to get away from him. If i don't have a job, and simply leave, they would stay with him. That is NOT an option.

Just as you said that women that have been in abusive relationships don't trust men, it seems that you can't trust women that happen to be in abusive relationships. It's a good thing that you did what you could to help this person out, and i respect you for it, but there's no reason to think that all of us are that way. It is easy to become jaded to situations like that. That's understandable.

i just hope you realize that there are some of us that truly don't enjoy the situation and wouldn't go back to the person - once it clicks that they're the source of the problem.

If I could, I'd cry for all who are subjected to an abuser. My problem comes when after the women get away, they return to him.

I was upset, because she hurt my feelings by going back to that looser.

I do believe that getting far away to a stable environment is the first thing to do.

 

[entitled]

If I could, I'd cry for all who are subjected to an abuser. My problem comes when after the women get away, they return to him.

I was upset, because she hurt my feelings by going back to that looser.

I do believe that getting far away to a stable environment is the first thing to do.

i understand. It doesn't sit right that people would go back with me, either.

 

[BlackSnake]

Good equus.

*pets*

I'm not a model of goodness. I have screwed married women, and had numerous affairs. I'm not a model citizen.

It kills me though, when some women go back to their abusers.

For goodness sake, don't go back to the abusers. The abusers will never change. He maybe good for a month, but trust in one thing. He'll find something to blame you for, or a reason to continue his abuse.

 

[BlackShanglan]

For goodness sake, don't go back to the abusers. The abusers will never change. He maybe good for a month, but trust in one thing. He'll find something to blame you for, or a reason to continue his abuse.

Yes. And he will also find a way to seperate you from the resources, whether people or materials, that you used to escape the first time. The next time will be harder. And you will be punished for the first time, sooner or later.

This, to me, was the best advice I'd seen on staying out of abusive relationships: get away from anyone who presses for a hasty committment or exclusivity, and run, fast, from anyone whose plans or actions isolate you from your friends and family. If s/he can't seem to get along with anyone you know, insists that certain people aren't allowed to come to visit, never has time for either of you to visit your family, and/or wants to move to a location - out of state, isolated rural area - where you would have great difficulty staying in contact with people you know, weigh those desires very, very carefully.

Also, although it seems strange to have to say it, believe people who warn you about this person, and believe any statements about abuse in past relationships. I've known several people in abusive relationships; most of them either knew that the abuser had beaten and abused past partners, or were warned by several people that the relationship was not a good idea. One of them was warned not only by her brother, whose friend this person had been before getting involved with her, but also by my father, who is the last person on earth one would ever expect to say anything to an employee about her personal life. Even he could not hold his peace when he saw the pattern: the fiance called her three or four times a day to check on her, picked up from directly from work to take her home (despite her having her own car), did not want her to hold a job, did not want her to associate with any of her old friends, would not meet the eye of anyone she knew, and planned to move them five hours away to a tiny rural town as soon as they married. It was like watching a train wreck.

Garcon LaClos was a clever man with a deep insight into men and women. When his arch-rake, the Vicomte de Valmonte, wants to seduce a woman famous for the strength of her morals and the happiness of her marriage, he hits upon the scheme that lures many a woman to her doom: he offers her the chance to "convert" him. "But that was with them! He'll be different for me!" is the wincingly painful cry of the lamb to the slaughter.

Shanglan

 

[sweetnpetite]

I've read this entire thread. (Ask me how piqued my evil side is now)....

When you're evil, you're better than most when they are good.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Two, is the problem of "nice guys" sometimes gaining views such as BlackSnake's at the beginning. With all due respect, this viewpoint should be anathema to "nice guys". It is at its heart misogynistic, petty, misguided, and a one way trip to turning a "nice guy" into one of the horde of assholes instead of something special. Once they figure themselves to be a "catch" that "petty misguided women" keep passing over for abusers. Once they believe that they are owed something for their kindness, it's a downhill slope. Roberta Gregory had an incredible story in one of her comic books that outlined an ugly "nice guy" type who ended up being something horrid, a huge asshole and utter scumbag because he believed he was owed something for being nice, that his essential sexism wasn't as much as the flak he got for it. "Nice guys" cannot do these things and remain "nice guys". It's hard sometimes for "nice guys", I can tell. Sitting alone and fearing ending up with no one, watching friends and acquaintances get in bad relationships. However, they cannot blame women for their problems or else they are not a special beautiful thing that women complain of never finding. They are just an asshole and we have a surplus on them.

***​

Most of the all is to never denigrate women in abused relationships as stupid. To be their for them and to try and help them extricate themselves. It'll be hard, but worth it and no matter what, always be willing to defend them. Because while many seem to view chivalry as "archaic", as "a dead and misogynistic practice", I believe, properly applied, it can be the method by which decent men take back what it means to be a man.

Thank you especially for that. A true 'nice guy' can't go around acting like he's so great because he does the things that he should and is therefore owed something. I've met too many guys like that. Ugh! I'll tell you one reason we don't want to date a nice guy. Because if we do one little thing to hurt a 'nice guy' we become the devil incarnate. 'How could you do that to me? After all I've done to you?' Who needs the guilt? Who needs the pressure? With a bad guy, we don't have to be angels either. We don't have to worry about falling off some pedastal. Because we know we're not perfect, and deep down we know that every relationship ends with someone getting hurt. If you're so good and perfect and holy and blemishless, who's fault is everything gonna be? That my friend, is the dark side of 'the good guy.'

Personally, I think guys should stop being 'good' or 'bad' and just be honerable, honest, sincere, and true to themselves. And it helps to have interests besides getting laid If you want a girl to be interested in you, you have to be interesting, and that's not about being good or bad, it's about having things that you're passionate about and knowlegable about, and going out and living an interesting life, rather than waiting for some girl to discover how great you are. That's another thing about bad boys. They don't sit around waiting and feeling sorry for themselves. [at least not at the begining]

hope that makes sence.

 

[Guest]

Personally, I think guys should stop being 'good' or 'bad' and just be honerable, honest, sincere, and true to themselves. And it helps to have interests besides getting laid If you want a girl to be interested in you, you have to be interesting, and that's not about being good or bad, it's about having things that you're passionate about and knowlegable about, and going out and living an interesting life, rather than waiting for some girl to discover how great you are. That's another thing about bad boys. They don't sit around waiting and feeling sorry for themselves. [at least not at the begining]

yes
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[yui]

yes
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yes

Agreed, but that quote was in huuuge font. My eyes are ringing.

 

[sweetnpetite]

But she is not the only woman that fall back into the same trap. They just half to be with the jerks. I can no longer feel sorry for them. Once a jerk always a jerk.

It's not as easy as it looks. Especially when your heart is involved. Tell me you've never done something stupid because you were thinking with your heart (or maybe your loins) instead of your head. Tell me that when you are *in* a situation, you are objective about it, that you see it as clearly as others around you. Tell me you've never stayed in a relationship (romantic, friendship whatever) when friends told you it was a bad idea.

Tell us all that you always do the rational thing in your personal life and never let your emotions cloud your judgement.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Good man, Blacksnake, for supplying the very needed material support. The point at which a woman leaves an abusive relationship (or attempts to) is one of the points at which serious violence is most likely. A good "escape plan" and a stalwart friend are the best preparation.

Shanglan

Quiting a bad relationship is like quiting a drug or quiting smoking. You usually have to quit more than once for it to stick.

 

[Guest]

Agreed, but that quote was in huuuge font. My eyes are ringing.

*points to the post and to the edited reason... *

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSnake
But she is not the only woman that fall back into the same trap. They just half to be with the jerks. I can no longer feel sorry for them. Once a jerk always a jerk.

It's not as easy as it looks. Especially when your heart is involved. Tell me you've never done something stupid because you were thinking with your heart (or maybe your loins) instead of your head. Tell me that when you are *in* a situation, you are objective about it, that you see it as clearly as others around you. Tell me you've never stayed in a relationship (romantic, friendship whatever) when friends told you it was a bad idea.

Tell us all that you always do the rational thing in your personal life and never let your emotions cloud your judgement.

In the case that Blacksnake was describing, the woman had made a clean break, taking her child with her, actually getting *out* of the situation. She had a job, a car and an apartment. She appeared to have gotten her life in order but she still chose to return to the abuser.

As for "love": How can anybody possible love a person who beats him or her up? I would think most persons would replace the love that might have existed with hate. In the case of the woman whom the Snake described, there appears to be no hope for her. This is a shame but, eventually, you have to look at the facts.

 

[SeaCat]

One thing that nobody's touched on is the fact that after going out with 'the jerk' it's much harder to trust anybody of that sex. RA and i have been married for nearly 6 years (will be, beginning of next month). He knows i'm just marking time until somebody will hire me.

A male friend of mine came over last night for a while, and i realized that no matter how nice he is, it will be nearly impossible for me to trust him because of what RA had done. One person can have a lasting effect on somebody else. They can make that person live in fear and mistrust for years after leaving their life.

That might be the worst part of it. Once you think you're beyond a person's reach, you realize that they still have at least a nominal hold on your life because it is harder to trust.

Entitled,

One day you will learn to trust again, if you will allow yourself to. One day you will meet someone who will put the time and energy into helping you to trust. You will meet someone who will move slowly, who will respect you, you will love you whole heartedly. Someone who will understand and do what it takes to help you heal. Someone who is strong enough for you to lean on when you need support, but also strong enough to let you stand on your own when you need to. That time will come, if you allow it.

Yes it does take time. How well I know this. My wife was raped soon before we met, raped and beaten. When she reported it she was laughed at. It took a long time before she even started to trust me but I was commited, I had seen what was inside of her hiding from the world. We have been married for thriteen years now but it has only been the last few where she didn't wake up with nightmares. It has been only the last few years that I can come up behind her and slip my arms around her without her reacting as though she was being attacked again. It hasn't been easy for either of us but she decided early on that she wanted to trust me, and now she does.

Cat

 

[sweetnpetite]

I do believe that getting far away to a stable environment is the first thing to do.

"Stable" to a person who has been living in hell, is hell. Stable is what you've always known, what you're used to, what your comfortable with. Sometimes 'safe' seems scarier that what you've already learned to live with and that 'scary' place that you've learned to cope with seems safe. better the devil you know, than the devil you don't know. (that sort of ties in to how you lose your ability to trust- other men, other people, yourself)-- if you can't trust that there's anything better out there, arent' you better staying in the situation that you are familiar with, that you know how to 'be' in?)

 

[Guest]

It's not as easy as it looks. Especially when your heart is involved. Tell me you've never done something stupid because you were thinking with your heart (or maybe your loins) instead of your head. Tell me that when you are *in* a situation, you are objective about it, that you see it as clearly as others around you. Tell me you've never stayed in a relationship (romantic, friendship whatever) when friends told you it was a bad idea.

Tell us all that you always do the rational thing in your personal life and never let your emotions cloud your judgement.

As several of my 'girlfriends' can attest to.... I was in this earlier this year....
They SCREAMED at me to get out... that this guy was doing such an amazingly HORRIBLE mind fuck on me that I couldn't see straight... I was constantly sad, always felt like I was not doing something right, my self esteem was COMPLETELY destroyed by this guy... he would tell me things like "I am a flirt, I will look at any girls I want to and flirt with any girl that I want to you and if you tell me that I can't I will leave you" wanna know what I stayed with him for MONTHS even after he said that.... my friends were irate and yelling at me on the phone repeatedly.... it took me some time after getting out of the relationship to realize what an utter mindfuck he did on me

 

[Liar]

Thank you especially for that. A true 'nice guy' can't go around acting like he's so great because he does the things that he should and is therefore owed something. I've met too many guys like that. Ugh! I'll tell you one reason we don't want to date a nice guy. Because if we do one little thing to hurt a 'nice guy' we become the devil incarnate. 'How could you do that to me? After all I've done to you?' Who needs the guilt? Who needs the pressure?

Hey, welcome to my world. I stepped on so many guilt trip landmines with girls (and a guy too - this is to my experience not a gender thing, but a human thing) in the past that I gave up on love. This happened because I wasn't an asshole up front. I never tried to hide that I had flaws. But I didn't advertise them either, because I thought that nobody could possibly precieve me as anything but a human that errs on occation.

It took me up until now to trust anyone enough to try a relationship again. And that's just because I know for sure that this is a lady with a one-in-a-million attitude. She knows there with be grit and hurdles. I know there will be grit and hurdles. And we are both almost perversely upfront about what the other should expect in the future.

Personally, I think guys should stop being 'good' or 'bad' and just be honerable, honest, sincere, and true to themselves.

This differs from being a good guy how exactly?

 

[SeaCat]

Oh no...we are not alone.... and each step we take.... another holds onto our hands and lets us bring out with us towards the sun

And with some of you, there is someone there who is reaching back. There is someone who is trying to buy you time to either run or heal. Someone who is willing to help, and yes sometimes is willing to get hurt. Sometimes this person is also willing to love you, and sometimes they are just there as a friend.

These people are rare I do admit, but they do exist.

Cat

 

[Guest]

And with some of you, there is someone there who is reaching back. There is someone who is trying to buy you time to either run or heal. Someone who is willing to help, and yes sometimes is willing to get hurt. Sometimes this person is also willing to love you, and sometimes they are just there as a friend.

These people are rare I do admit, but they do exist.

Cat

That is your second post I have read in the last ten minutes that has had me in tears....

 

[sweetnpetite]

Quote:

In the case that Blacksnake was describing, the woman had made a clean break, taking her child with her, actually getting *out* of the situation. She had a job, a car and an apartment. She appeared to have gotten her life in order but she still chose to return to the abuser.

In every bad relationship I have ever seen come to an end, the woman had left- 'really left' at least once before they got out for good. Including myself.

As for "love": How can anybody possible love a person who beats him or her up? I would think most persons would replace the love that might have existed with hate. In the case of the woman whom the Snake described, there appears to be no hope for her. This is a shame but, eventually, you have to look at the facts.

You would think, but you would be wrong. Love is not rational. Women are very romantic, we beleive that our love will change him [the transformational power of love], we believe that we are the only person who understands him, the only person who *can* help him change. We believe that true love is unconditional. We believe in "for better or worse", in good times and bad. We sometimes believe that the bad times are a test that we have to pass and then we will recieve the reward for our faithfulness.

My grandmother married a drunk. He was abusive, he was awful, he was scary and terrible. She stuck by him and he eventually joined AA and became the wonderful grandpa that *I* knew. My guess is that every abused woman knows at least one story like that, or at least beleives it. Yes, it's irrational, but she thinks that she will be the exception. It's ingrained in us through church, fairy tales, romance novels, romance movies, and many other tools of our socialization. A bad man can be changed by a good woman. [It even sais so in the bible]

The woman that Black described is not beyond hope. Like I said, everyone I've ever known to leave a bad or abusive relationship has made at least 1 complete break (sometimes many) before truly leaving for good. And when it happens, you can usually tell. And you hold your breath, fearful that one fateful meeting will set them back to the begining. But you know, that's life- it's not all straightfoward. It's one step forward, two steps back sometimes.

You shouldn't give up on people, but you should learn not to emotinaly invest yourself so heavily in their decisions. [and I know it's hard] or take there actions so personally. It's not about you, they have there own demons to fight, demons that you can't see and can't fight for them. Just because you can't understand someones actions doesn't mean that they don't have their reasons. Loving someone is not something you just turn off. Neither is hoping for that 'perfect family' [you, your kids, and their biological father] that everyone expects, that you expect and that, when it all falls apart, you are the one who feels (and is sometimes made to feel) like a failer. Either for not making it work or for choosing the wrong guy in the first place, it's always your (the woman's) fault that your family fell apart.

Yes, woman have silly, romantic ideas. It takes us a long time to give up on them, to give up on our dreams. [one marriage, happily ever after, till death do us part] EVERY time we leave one marriage or long term relationship, we become more desperate to make the next one work, because each additional one is farther from our ideal, what we were taught that we were supposed to do, what we dreamed of since we were girls. Everyone I know that has kids by more than 1 man feels that this is not what she wanted for herself, not what her family wanted for her- whatever the circomstances, it's a point of guilt.

It's complicated.

 

[Liar]

"Stable" to a person who has been living in hell, is hell.

That is quoteable, and something to remember when trying to help someone out of any messed up situation. When caught in hell, be it an unhelthy relationship, a substance abuse trap, gaming addiction, or whatever else there is... you find a platform where it works, where you can get your bearings, have a soimewhat manageable life and say "it's not that bad" even though it IS that bad. From there, any breach of the status quo is extremely scary.

 

[SeaCat]

That is your second post I have read in the last ten minutes that has had me in tears....

Elizabetht,



Cat

 

[Recidiva]

That is quoteable, and something to remember when trying to help someone out of any messed up situation. When caught in hell, be it an unhelthy relationship, a substance abuse trap, gaming addiction, or whatever else there is... you find a platform where it works, where you can get your bearings, have a soimewhat manageable life and say "it's not that bad" even though it IS that bad. From there, any breach of the status quo is extremely scary.

It's like bringing someone up from the sea floor. They're going to explode from the pressure differential.

Completely different worlds and the change in pressure is immense. You have to make a slow transition to not get the bends.

That's the only way I could cope was to try to think that way. Normal people do not understand and you can't expect them to be able to protect you, you have to understand how to protect yourself going from one world to the other, how to handle the changes.

I also have migraines and "normal" people without that level of disability don't get that sort of change either, so I had a frame of reference already. Without that level of already understanding alienation from other people's experience, I'm not sure how survivable it is.

Normal people without migraines think a hangover is a migraine so I was used to them sympathizing in a completely unhelpful way.

I'm already able to transition pretty easily from one frame of reference to another and have that be okay. Normal people think they can sympathize for a deeply traumatized abuse victim, but if you haven't been there, you can't, any more than being spanked as a kid is the same thing as this sort of abuse, so it can be alienating to speak to someone who thinks they understand. It ends up making an abuse victim feel minimized to be sympathized with, and the abuse victim will minimize their own symptoms to make the conversation stop at all costs.

Outside that level of pressure, it's hard to get traction on a real life. It's very easy to sink back down to what you know, particularly if what you know comes to find you again.

 

[sweetnpetite]

This differs from being a good guy how exactly?

A 'good guy' is always trying to be a buddy, always trying to help, pretending that he doesn't expect anything in return (but he really does), always playing the martyr ('why don't girls ever pick me, why do they always go for bad boys'), ect.

A guy who is true to himself and hold his own standards does good/honerable things because it's the kind of person he wants to be, not so others will think he's good. He doesn't consider himself a 'good guy' he thinks he's just doing the right thing, and that anybody would do the same thing. He doesn't expect brownie points. He knows that like all of us, he has good and bad sides, and while he isn't proud of his bad side, he doesn't try to cover it up with lies. He knows he's not perfect, he doesn't try or pretend to be an angel. He doesn't think anybody owes him for doing the right thing. Because he behaves according to his standard, not the reward.

And as to guys who aren't so great, they behave according to there own standard too, and they don't lie about it or cover it up. Because they are more interested in who they want to be than in who somebody else wants them to be. And there are girls who will like this kind of 'honest bad boy'


Do you see the difference?

 

[Boxlicker101]

"Stable" to a person who has been living in hell, is hell. Stable is what you've always known, what you're used to, what your comfortable with. Sometimes 'safe' seems scarier that what you've already learned to live with and that 'scary' place that you've learned to cope with seems safe. better the devil you know, than the devil you don't know. (that sort of ties in to how you lose your ability to trust- other men, other people, yourself)-- if you can't trust that there's anything better out there, arent' you better staying in the situation that you are familiar with, that you know how to 'be' in?)

"Stable" can also mean some kind of women's and children's shelter. They do exist, and they are relatively safe. "Stable" can also mean being sheltered by very close friends or relatives. Admitedly, sometimes none of these kinds of places is available.