Bodice rippers under attack

[PennLady]

Or so it seems: http://www.salon.com/life/sex/index.html?story=/mwt/feature/2011/06/04/porn_romance

I haven't read this whole article yet, so can't comment, but thought I'd throw it out there.

 

[sr71plt]

Bodice Rippers Ripped?

 

[Stella_Omega]

It's very difficult to read. My brain keeps sliding off the page.

But what she seems to be saying is that some Mormon elder is shaking his pulpit over romance novels saying they are little better than porn, and the author is saying that not only are romances just fine-- porn is just fine too.

 

[PennLady]

I just read it. I didn't think it was too bad, but I doubt it broke any new ground, although the other studies/reports mentioned sounded interesting. I myself hadn't seen the romantic fantasy v. sexual fantasy angle before and found that worth reading.

I'm glad, though, that they touched at the end on the idea that while many people read romance (or porn) and enjoy the fantasy, they don't expect the fantasy to be reality. I think that's an important distinction that isn't always made. I enjoy my stories with the romance-conflict-resolution-HEA (although the HEA doesn't have to be marriage for me), but I know it's not that way in real life. Just a nice break from real life sometimes is all.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Why is it that church/religious zealots feel that the rest of the flock is too stupid to make their own choices and need protecting by them?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Why is it that church/religious zealots feel that the rest of the flock is too stupid to make their own choices and need protecting by them?

That's why they call them a "flock." The smart ones leave.

 

[PennLady]

Why is it that church/religious zealots feel that the rest of the flock is too stupid to make their own choices and need protecting by them?

I dunno, but that kind of thing tends to make me want to run out and see/read/etc. whatever they're saying I shouldn't.

 

[xssve]

It does offer some interesting insight on the way art affects expectations, and frames the porn debate in a less one sided way.

As the ksl.com article points out -- albeit in hyperbolic terms -- it can be problematic when people adopt these unrealistic ideals. A bibliophile friend who has researched the genre told me, "The characters themselves may be complex and diverse, but the nature of love itself is always the same and always strikes me as women trying to reassure themselves and each other that relationships work in a way that they actually almost never do." In other words, that it's possible to land an alpha male who is not in the least bit concerned with spreading his grade-A seed -- at least, not after falling head over heels in love with The One. Men who actually buy into the porno norm may be greatly disappointed when they encounter real women who do not orgasm on command, breasts that do not defy gravity or genitalia resembling that of an adolescent.

 

[PennLady]

It does offer some interesting insight on the way art affects expectations, and frames the porn debate in a less one sided way.

Yes, I think this is what I meant. It didn't just go into a discussion of whether porn is good or bad, or art or not. I liked how the article talked about what men and women usually like (in a very general sense), and the expectations/fantasy aspect.

 

[xssve]

The final paragraph made a good point, i.e., it isn't always monkey see, monkey do - dare I say that's more often a feature of religion, rather than other forms of fantasy that don't try to present themselves as realistic?

We always suspect of others what we know of ourselves.

It can be unsettling to read a book like "A Billion Wicked Thoughts" that seemingly reduces us to our Darwinian desires -- that women want a consistent provider and men just want to spread their seed. It's disturbing in large part because it's so easy to find truth there, and yet most of us want to be more than our animalistic urges; that's what makes us human. Our sexual imagination -- whether it favors a gang-bang or a knight in shining armor (or both? Hmm) -- is part of that balance. Not everything has to be politically correct -- especially when it isn't actually real. It isn't so much romance novels that need defending here, it's fantasy.

Most adults I think are able to discern fantasy from reality - otherwise from this place, you'd have to conclude that every man in here is fucking his mother/sister/aunt/cousin, etc., lol - I really don't think that's the case.

The article linked to above expands some on the subject - i.e., womens "porn" searches tend to be for fanfics:

What did you find in terms of women's sexual behavior online?

The dominant modes of erotica for women are character-driven stories of romance and sexuality. The most popular erotic site for women is fanfiction.net, which is a collection of amateur written stories [which are often written about male characters found in pop culture, like Edward from "Twilight"]. Women's erotica is a social enterprise; for men it's a solitary enterprise. In fan fiction, women love to discuss the erotic stories, the characters, the emotional nuances -- that's part of enjoying and participating in fan fiction.

 

[TE999]

That's why they call them a "flock." The smart ones leave.

When a 'flock' gets together they're 'flocking' which is uncomfortably close to... well, you know... I'm surprised some bible thumper doesn't get his boxers in a bunch over that.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

It's interesting to examine the author's food analogy:

"All forms of erotica affect the brain by satisfying existing biological needs rather than shaping future expectations," Ogas told me by email. "Eating a pint of Ben and Jerry's Karamel Sutra satisfies a craving for sweets; it certainly does not create the expectancy that all future meals will be swirled full of creamy chocolate pleasure."

The average person won't consciously think that each meal with be, "swirled full of creamy chocolate pleasure," (heh). However, humans are biologically wired to crave sugar and fat (and maybe salt?). Furthermore, the more we consume foods with these characteristics, the more we crave them, and over-consumption can numb our ability to fully taste and enjoy foods that are not salty, sugary, or fatty. Occasionally eating Karamel Sutra might not consciously shape our future expectations, but frequently eating certain foods might alter our desires and tastes, without any conscious choice on our part.

I doubt that most consumers consciously expect their romantic or sexual lives to mimic porn and romance novels. But I think food, as I outlined, can be a good analogy for porn and romance consumption, namely that for some people, over-consumption of each has the potential to lead to a subconscious reshaping of our expectations.

 

[Stella_Omega]

ogas and gaddam, pseudoscience peddlers. They claimed to be working from Boston U, and Boston U stopped their .edu email addresses.

Take a look at the customer tags for their book, for a giggle or three.

 

[xssve]

It's interesting to examine the author's food analogy:



The average person won't consciously think that each meal with be, "swirled full of creamy chocolate pleasure," (heh). However, humans are biologically wired to crave sugar and fat (and maybe salt?). Furthermore, the more we consume foods with these characteristics, the more we crave them, and over-consumption can numb our ability to fully taste and enjoy foods that are not salty, sugary, or fatty. Occasionally eating Karamel Sutra might not consciously shape our future expectations, but frequently eating certain foods might alter our desires and tastes, without any conscious choice on our part.

I doubt that most consumers consciously expect their romantic or sexual lives to mimic porn and romance novels. But I think food, as I outlined, can be a good analogy for porn and romance consumption, namely that for some people, over-consumption of each has the potential to lead to a subconscious reshaping of our expectations.

You mean you might begin to find Dilly Bar's to be less satisfying?

 

[3113]

Which came first? (that's an erotic pun)

I doubt that most consumers consciously expect their romantic or sexual lives to mimic porn and romance novels. But I think food, as I outlined, can be a good analogy for porn and romance consumption, namely that for some people, over-consumption of each has the potential to lead to a subconscious reshaping of our expectations.

There might be a bit of cart-before-the-horse going on here--or maybe it's chicken-and-egg? Do men/women read porn/romance and "settle" for less ending up permanently disappointed because, even though they know the porn/romance isn't real, they still wish their real sex/romance life was closer to what they read, OR do they enter into real life sex/romance, find it disappointing, and take up reading porn/romance to fill in what's missing? Which, of course, only makes them more aware of what's missing rather than actually satisfying, but there you go.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Well, of course. Everyone knows that.

 

[LettersFromTatyana]

There might be a bit of cart-before-the-horse going on here--or maybe it's chicken-and-egg? Do men/women read porn/romance and "settle" for less ending up permanently disappointed because, even though they know the porn/romance isn't real, they still wish their real sex/romance life was closer to what they read, OR do they enter into real life sex/romance, find it disappointing, and take up reading porn/romance to fill in what's missing? Which, of course, only makes them more aware of what's missing rather than actually satisfying, but there you go.

In your scenario, chicken-and-egg, I think, though I admit I'm biased towards chickens.
<-----------------

When I wrote my post, I was thinking about some of the single women I know (not all of them!) who obsessively read romance novels, and who fail to grasp that relationships are not all sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows, with modern day equivalents of Mr. Knightley waiting for them. Your explanation is equally valid, though.

 

[xssve]

I think fantasy fills more archetypal needs.

Origins

I speak in two

sometimes one grows from many
sometimes many splits from one

two the birth of deathly life
two the leaving off

birth the union of all makes and kills
leaving off strips and is stripped

when deathly life divides itself
exchanges never cease

sometimes through Love everything grows into one
sometimes through Hate everyone splits into two

--------------

Fire and Water and Earth and the unfilled measure of Air

Hate Hated twice by the roots equals them
Love that's in them becomes their friend by the length and width

mind, look at her
don't sit there eyes astounded

born in their bodies
men worship her

she makes them think of desire
doing what joins them in peace and friendship

so they call her JOYOUS JOINER
Gethosyne Aphrodite

no one alive has seen her
because she swirls in their eyes

all the roots are equal
the same in birth and age

ruling with different honor
each according to their nature
--------------

Excerpts from Empedocles, From Nature
c. 800 B.C.