Blurting it out....Playground style

[LordOfHell]

Its true theres a fine line like you say. And let me say I'm not condemning fantasy. The problem is that consensual incest fantasies generally have under tones of non consent and underage. As most of the stories on those threads do.

I have no control over where other people take fantasy than you do. ANY message, whether sexual, religious, or philosophical, can be twisted and perverted. On top of that, fantasy cannot, and should not, be blamed for the actions of people who act them out. For example, if a man writes a story which involves beating his cheating wife's black lover to death, that does not mean that any person who immediately goes out and beats either a cheater or an African-American has any cause to say that the story is their excuse.

You choose what you do, regardless of what inspires you. Even the holiest message can be destroyed by someone who wants to use it for their ends.

Can you assure me that in none of the material you put out is there ever a fantasy about under age or non consent? Also spreading fantasies of consenual incest can act as encouragement to children or adults to explore something which is peverse. Its not the same as a fantasy which say encourages group sex.

Fantasy is not the same word as encouragement. This is the main flaw I have with everything you've been saying. Just because I fantasize about, say, being Batman, does not mean that I encourage or endorse anyone to dress in blue-and-grey spandex and fight crime. That is an entirely insane and self-destructive act, and every bit as unrealistic as sexual fantasy.

I don't have a problem with fantasy of any kind, so long as the person involved is aware of the line between it and reality. For example, if a woman wants to have a gangbang because she read about one in a story, I wish her the best--but I DO NOT condone her doing so bareback with strangers just because the character in the story did it. Anyone who engages in fantasy without first thinking over the consequences and learning how to be safe about it is a fool.

The same is true of incest. Do I approve of incestuous relationships between consenting adults? Yes. Do I approve of children born of this? No. Do I approve of pedophilia or real-life rape? HELL no.

 

[Lady_Fiona]

Janey, knob of butter, little brown sugar (2oz or so) some cinnamon.

heat in large pan, chuck sliced apples in and fry over. Add sugar and cinnamon, turn until coated.

Apples come out just that little bit crisp but makes a great pie.

 

[bisolom]

For one, fighting against consensual incest is doing none of these things. In fact, it's hindering the freedom of two adults who possess the full ability to make their own decisions.

For two, as I said before. Having a just cause does not mean that you are making just action. For example, if my cause is to save your life, and I murder twelve innocent people to do it, then I committed an unjust act for a just cause.



Both of these questions are false dichotomies.

You cannot come to the conclusion that just because I say that good intentions are the road to hell that this means that bad intention, or no intention at all, is somehow better. For a dichotomy to be true, two conditions must exist:

1) There can ONLY be two results.

2) These results cannot exist at the same time.

Now, assuming that my intentions are good but my actions are bad, then that doesn't mean that I should change my intentions. It simply means that I should change my actions. This is the entire basis of justice, because justice means to do something good in as fair, equitable and mutually beneficial as possible, and not simply destroying one side just because you don't like it.

Please reread my post. I was not accusing you of anything.
Since your posts are mostly criticism of others beliefs, I merely asked you what you believe.

 

[janeyl]

Janey, knob of butter, little brown sugar (2oz or so) some cinnamon.

heat in large pan, chuck sliced apples in and fry over. Add sugar and cinnamon, turn until coated.

Apples come out just that little bit crisp but makes a great pie.

Woot! I love cooking tips

We should start a thread...

no wait...

Yes KB-I know there's already a few!

 

[bisolom]

I'm off, have a good one everybodypeeps. I'm really off. Not pretending. I DO have real life, ya know

Nite sweetie.

 

[WboroBaptM0134]

I'm sorry...what? How do you get to that opinion?

This is what I call a "go to jail" conclusion...do not pass go, do not collect £200...miss out all the joining steps in between...

Seriously sunshine...check yourself

I get to that opinion because theres so many people here who say I'm talking gibberish. And they can't or won't even make a simple statement on something that is easy to agree with. I'm not asking anyone to like me and no I don't know Ms Tex. But anyone who says blah blah to the issue of non consent incest fantasies, can only be ineffectual in society, because by extension, they'd probably say blah blah to anything of import except when it came to gratifying their desires.

"I want a coffee today!" Oh all of sudden thats the most relevant on earth!

 

[DarkSimian]

I'm off, have a good one everybodypeeps. I'm really off. Not pretending. I DO have real life, ya know

you mean there's life beyond Lit??? say it isn't so!!!!

 

[LordOfHell]

I'm not entirely convinced that that truly exists to be honest-for the majority of the adults I have encountered for whom this is an issue, there has been some degree of manipulation and coersion involved because of the power aspects of the relationships they have inadvertently found themselves entangled in.

But then I work with people who end up on the extremes of experience so maybe my opinion is not representative. All I know is that vast parts of my entire 25 year career have been spent dealing with the unwanted aftermath of what a lot of people see as a "harmless" fantasy

I know several people who have had at least one incestuous experiment in their lives and simply shrug it off as something they wanted to try. One person even had regular sex with an older relative for years until that relative passed.

To me, just because 7 out of 10 of the cases in which an act happens are bad does not give cause to harrass the 3/10 people who perform the act responsibly and to everyone's mutual satisfaction.

This was the EXACT same argument that was used to deride interracial relationships for centuries. The idea that a good chunk of mixed relationships end badly, or that a number of people in one race act a certain way, was used to argue that no one should EVER love someone of a different color.

The argument was ridiculous then, and it's ridiculous now.

 

[CaliGuy60]

I get to that opinion because theres so many people here who say I'm talking gibberish. And they can't or won't even make a simple statement on something that is easy to agree with. I'm not asking anyone to like me and no I don't know Ms Tex. But anyone who says blah blah to the issue of non consent incest fantasies, can only be ineffectual in society, because by extension, they'd probably say blah blah to anything of import except when it came to gratifying their desires.

"I want a coffee today!" Oh all of sudden thats the most relevant on earth!

Speaking of desires, I want you up my ass. Yum.

 

[MsTexas]

Speaking of desires, I want you up my ass. Yum.

 

[DarkSimian]

sooooo.....how about that sports team?

 

[CaliGuy60]

There is a practical matter on the issue of incest though. It's a very difficult thing to enforce legally. I mean if people are going to do it, they will probably be able to get away with it and only in very rare cases be caught.

I think a much more pervasive problem is child sexual abuse, just "small" things, fingering like that (that can be incredibly damaging) and are non consensual. We certainly have laws against that, but I think it's amazingly pervasive and easy to do, so the laws are not much of a deterrent. Of course I don't support any sort of non consensual sexual activity.

 

[LordOfHell]

Please reread my post. I was not accusing you of anything.
Since your posts are mostly criticism of others beliefs, I merely asked you what you believe.

But I didn't criticize ANYONE'S beliefs. In fact, I said I applaud them. Fighting pedophilia and rape are wonderful causes, and I commend it.


However, I DID criticize the actions under which those beliefs are expressed. Regardless of how holy they felt their message was, that doesn't give someone the right to dehumanize or make false accusations about others.

 

[janeyl]

I know several people who have had at least one incestuous experiment in their lives and simply shrug it off as something they wanted to try. One person even had regular sex with an older relative for years until that relative passed.

To me, just because 7 out of 10 of the cases in which an act happens are bad does not give cause to harrass the 3/10 people who perform the act responsibly and to everyone's mutual satisfaction.

This was the EXACT same argument that was used to deride interracial relationships for centuries. The idea that a good chunk of mixed relationships end badly, or that a number of people in one race act a certain way, was used to argue that no one should EVER love someone of a different color.

The argument was ridiculous then, and it's ridiculous now.

Ok-way to dismiss the lived experience of the individuals I work with but hey...as I said, perhaps they aren't representative

And I'm not harrassing anyone...pardon me for having an opinion based on experience

 

[WboroBaptM0134]

I have no control over where other people take fantasy than you do. ANY message, whether sexual, religious, or philosophical, can be twisted and perverted. On top of that, fantasy cannot, and should not, be blamed for the actions of people who act them out. For example, if a man writes a story which involves beating his cheating wife's black lover to death, that does not mean that any person who immediately goes out and beats either a cheater or an African-American has any cause to say that the story is their excuse.

You choose what you do, regardless of what inspires you. Even the holiest message can be destroyed by someone who wants to use it for their ends.



Fantasy is not the same word as encouragement. This is the main flaw I have with everything you've been saying. Just because I fantasize about, say, being Batman, does not mean that I encourage or endorse anyone to dress in blue-and-grey spandex and fight crime. That is an entirely insane and self-destructive act, and every bit as unrealistic as sexual fantasy.

I don't have a problem with fantasy of any kind, so long as the person involved is aware of the line between it and reality. For example, if a woman wants to have a gangbang because she read about one in a story, I wish her the best--but I DO NOT condone her doing so bareback with strangers just because the character in the story did it. Anyone who engages in fantasy without first thinking over the consequences and learning how to be safe about it is a fool.

The same is true of incest. Do I approve of incestuous relationships between consenting adults? Yes. Do I approve of children born of this? No. Do I approve of pedophilia or real-life rape? HELL no.

See the main difference between your view point and mine, is that you see things on an individual level. You say that ultimately the choice to commit an act lies with the individual and in your experience because you can control yourself therefore you'd assume others can too, so why not enjoy dark fantasies because hey, they're there.

My viewpoint looks at society as a collection of individuals reacting to each other, and I see that as a group, society is not in control. That any stimulus introduced to the group will effect its behavior. Statistically a certain amount of rapes occur. Statistically a certain amount of incest occurs. I feel it is a great illusion to assume that the majority of adults are actually aware of whether they are in control or not over certain fantasies. And it is close to impossible for an individual to separate their inner life from their outer no matter how much they believe they can. There is much more connection than you assume.

The material you output will be reinterpreted by another. But we can be responsible for the elements involved. Incest is an unhealthy element and no good result can really come from it. Its also totally unnecessary. A family unit is a very powerful thing and evidence shows that incest acts as a total disruptor or certain kinds of family bonds.

 

[CaliGuy60]

Ok-way to dismiss the lived experience of the individuals I work with but hey...as I said, perhaps they aren't representative

And I'm not harrassing anyone...pardon me for having an opinion based on experience

I value this opinion.

 

[bisolom]

But I didn't criticize ANYONE'S beliefs. In fact, I said I applaud them. Fighting pedophilia and rape are wonderful causes, and I commend it.


However, I DID criticize the actions under which those beliefs are expressed. Regardless of how holy they felt their message was, that doesn't give someone the right to dehumanize or make false accusations about others.

You seem to be avoiding answering my questions. But it's ok...you don't have to.

 

[MsTexas]

*yawn*

 

[LordOfHell]

Ok-way to dismiss the lived experience of the individuals I work with but hey...as I said, perhaps they aren't representative

And I'm not harrassing anyone...pardon me for having an opinion based on experience

What I'm only saying is that experience is not equal to whole fact. I understand you have a bad experience with incest and that you deal with people who are traumatized by it. So, I understand your aversion to it.

However, I also argued my point just as hard against an EMT who said that he hated fat people (not saying you hate anyone, just speaking on him alone) because he almost killed himself on numerous occasions trying to save the life of a heavyset person that had collapsed or had a heart attack. He stated that trying to carry them out of cramped spaces has caused him to nearly fall down stairs or hurt his own back numerous times.

However, that doesn't excuse such a response. Just because your experience, or those of people you know, are bad doesn't mean that everyone's are. It's equally disrespectful to dismiss the opinions of people who have GOOD experiences as it is for those who have bad ones.

 

[MsTexas]

Ok-way to dismiss the lived experience of the individuals I work with but hey...as I said, perhaps they aren't representative

And I'm not harrassing anyone...pardon me for having an opinion based on experience

 

[LordOfHell]

You seem to be avoiding answering my questions. But it's ok...you don't have to.

I thought I answered your questions pretty thoroughly. What part of them did I miss in my reply?

 

[WboroBaptM0134]

*yawn*

What do you actually think Tex?

 

[LordOfHell]

The material you output will be reinterpreted by another. But we can be responsible for the elements involved. Incest is an unhealthy element and no good result can really come from it. Its also totally unnecessary. A family unit is a very powerful thing and evidence shows that incest acts as a total disruptor or certain kinds of family bonds.

So does money. Money destroys more families than incest does. Any lawyer, judge, or businessman could tell you that.

However, would that stop you from giving money or aid to a family member who needed it? Of course not. You would just try to be more responsible about it and trust them.

The same with incest. You don't do it with someone who's irresponsible, or someone who can't handle it, or someone untrustworthy. But, assuming for a second that two people are responsible enough to handle it, I see NO reason to stop them. And just like money, there's no way to KNOW this until you put forth the effort to try.

 

[WboroBaptM0134]

What I'm only saying is that experience is not equal to whole fact. I understand you have a bad experience with incest and that you deal with people who are traumatized by it. So, I understand your aversion to it.

However, I also argued my point just as hard against an EMT who said that he hated fat people (not saying you hate anyone, just speaking on him alone) because he almost killed himself on numerous occasions trying to save the life of a heavyset person that had collapsed or had a heart attack. He stated that trying to carry them out of cramped spaces has caused him to nearly fall down stairs or hurt his own back numerous times.

However, that doesn't excuse such a response. Just because your experience, or those of people you know, are bad doesn't mean that everyone's are. It's equally disrespectful to dismiss the opinions of people who have GOOD experiences as it is for those who have bad ones.

No but you seem to excuse and tolerate the behavior based on a few examples you've got in your head where it 'seemed ' to work out ok. (Fact is maybe you don't really know)

To encourage fantasies and try to convince people that the experience of doing something is positive when in fact it is generally very negative, is to try and pervert reality. This hurts people and is therefore unnecessary material.

 

[janeyl]

What I'm only saying is that experience is not equal to whole fact. I understand you have a bad experience with incest and that you deal with people who are traumatized by it. So, I understand your aversion to it.

However, I also argued my point just as hard against an EMT who said that he hated fat people (not saying you hate anyone, just speaking on him alone) because he almost killed himself on numerous occasions trying to save the life of a heavyset person that had collapsed or had a heart attack. He stated that trying to carry them out of cramped spaces has caused him to nearly fall down stairs or hurt his own back numerous times.

However, that doesn't excuse such a response. Just because your experience, or those of people you know, are bad doesn't mean that everyone's are. It's equally disrespectful to dismiss the opinions of people who have GOOD experiences as it is for those who have bad ones.

Go back and read my post-what I said was that I am not entirely convinced that there is such a thing as fully consensual incest. I haven't dismissed any experience-I gave an opinion based on almost 100% of my own. I doubt very much that there is any kind of empirical evidence to prove the argument one way or another

And I wasn't asking you to excuse me-our positions will never be the same and your forgiveness for my stance isn't required thank you.

People are entitled to their fantasies by all means, but when I have been into that particular thread, perhaps to be enlightened as to my contrary opinion, what I do find distasteful are the little nods, winks and allusions to age and consent that make it clear to anyone with half a brain that they pay no mind to any of those things