Black Bird's and Todds Bible bashing; but anyone can join in

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Black Bird
Here's an idea. Let me play devils advocate. You give a quote and explain what you believe the verse means and I will attempt to give a contrasting explaination or ask a few good questions concerning the verse...

If you like this idea, it will give me a reason to crack open that KJV Bible I have in my book case!

Todd-'o'-Vision
Ok, this sounds like some fun that we can have and it has the potentiality of being very deep.

Before we begin I think we need a couple of guidelines for both of our sakes.

I need permission to post the whole context of the verse, this is usually4-5 verses either side.

We both agree to not get in a raging flame of "Your wacky", "Your nutz", "Your wrong", etc.

That if it gets to a boil and we don't get anywhere, we will simply agree to disagree.

I will not try to convert you to christianity, If I do full permission to cyber slap me.

And away we go.

 

[Guest]

You're both wacky, nutz, and just plain wrong.

Can I just thump ya with a Bible rather than slap?

 

[Tyrael]

Good luck with that...but I have never seen a religious discussion that didn't eventually became a "Fuck you!" "No! Fuck you!!!" match.

It would be interesting to see if it can actually remain a calm discussion.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Ok let's start with one of the most far fetched fundamental beliefs. That being the past existance of a vapor/water/ice barrier above the earth surface between earth and space.

The founding verse for such a view is:

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
KJV

The following verses in the passage refere to it a bit more indepth:

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

The debate in different theological circles all bases itself upon the definition of what a 'firmament' is.

My personal belief of its definition from simply using the english rendering without getting into the hebrew is simply 'air' or 'space'. I support that by the use of the firmament being called heaven {3rd heaven will discuss more in a latter study the three uses of heaven}. I also support it with the fact that the fowl{birds} fly in this firmament.

Ok, so back to the barrier.

The reason I believe in this is in verse 6 God seperates the water with the firmament, to use the arguement that the firmament in this verse is earth would be to totally ignore the immediate use of the same word in the following verse after verse 6.

So whats the big deal about about having an ice/water/vapour barrier?

Well with a barrier of water surrounding the world I believe it would make the whole planet into a huge hyperbaric chamber. Plant growth would be huge as seen in some scientific studies of herbology in hyperbaric chambers. Some studies in this technknowlogy have produced garden variety tomatoes the size of a basket ball {thats a mighty good salad}

Bigger healthier food to feed a bigger healthier mankind. Human kind itself would be different inside of thise global hyperbaric chamber effect. With an approximate double to thripple pressure, the whole ody would use this stimulated vegetation better, the boddy would grow larger as in hieght.

Another thing that the barrier would work on would be a cancelation of the dangerous rays that now destory our skin microcellular every day. With these rays being defused and defleceted mankind itself would be healthier and live longer lives.

Oh well thats enough blathering for now. Time for the devils advocates to sign in.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Good luck with that...but I have never seen a religious discussion that didn't eventually became a "Fuck you!" "No! Fuck you!!!" match.

It would be interesting to see if it can actually remain a calm discussion.

I can remain calm

 

[Tyrael]

I didn't say you would do that. But you can't deny that religion is the most delicate of topics.

How many people in the world today have never questioned their beliefs? People get very defensive when you start disecting their religions.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

How many people in the world today have never questioned their beliefs?

You are right it is one of the most dlelicate of topics, But I am the christian willing to get bashed.

As for your final statement above. That is THE #1 problem with organised religion today in the world, no matter the faith.

The more I question the more I solidify my belief/faith and the more I burn away the chaff entrapments of organised religion.

 

[Guest]

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Todd, before I ask, I am not taking the piss or making fun of you. But I will admit that I'm an agnostic, though I am fascinated by all religions and hold a great deal of respect for the beliefs of others.

Having said that, can you please explain to me how *your* Christian mindset reconciles evolution with creation? For example, his there a biblical explanation for why it is so apparently clear that man descended from early primates?

My mindset does not reconcile evolution{evilution} and creation. But the scripture used by some liberal christains and others not liberal but just wanting to reconcile the two is Genesis 1:1 and 1:2

1 ¶ In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Those who use this say the first verse is a first creation and that the second verse is a recreation and that evolution occured bwteen the two.

This is based on a Catholic definition of the hebrew words for without form and void.

This is called the Gap Theory.

~~~~~

Another reconciliation of evilution and creation is the Day Age Theory or Thiestic Evilution. That is to say each of the seven days recoded in Genesis 1 are not 7 actual days but 7 ages spanning an unknown time frame.

My problem with this is the smae word used here for day in the hebrew is used elsewhere meaning a 24 hour period in the bible.

Does this help any?

 

[patient1]

Todd, this joint venture looks promising.
I'll keep an eye on it.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Todd, this joint venture looks promising.
I'll keep an eye on it.

feel free to join in for either side or join in as a fence sitter{someone needs to keep it warm }

 

[Guest]

 

[Moridin187]

I didn't say you would do that. But you can't deny that religion is the most delicate of topics.

How many people in the world today have never questioned their beliefs? People get very defensive when you start disecting their religions.

Personally, I think that those who get so defensive and sometimes positively Enraged when their beliefs are questioned are those who are not sure of them. It's the sheep, people who worship because they do not wish to go to Hell, or because that is what they were taught. People who question their beliefs, who Think about what they're being told, rather than just eating it up wholesale, are the true righteous ones. Same thing for those who go around thumping bibles and telling people they'll go to hell for not worshipping. Most of them are just trying to earn brownie points with Him.

But hey, that's just my opinion, and I could be wrong.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Thanks for responding.

I intend to note what you have said, and go away and research it and ponder it.

BTW, why do you refer to evolution as evilution?

I can sometime try to pinder it out a bit further for you if you like.

Why evilution? Cause its of the devil himself. Just another way to make an all powerful God weak. If you have a weak God who couldn't get creation right are we sure he's strong enough to do anything much more important {salvation}?

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Personally, I think that those who get so defensive and sometimes positively Enraged when their beliefs are questioned are those who are not sure of them. It's the sheep, people who worship because they do not wish to go to Hell, or because that is what they were taught. People who question their beliefs, who Think about what they're being told, rather than just eating it up wholesale, are the true righteous ones. Same thing for those who go around thumping bibles and telling people they'll go to hell for not worshipping. Most of them are just trying to earn brownie points with Him.

But hey, that's just my opinion, and I could be wrong.

Actually I think you hit the nail directly on the head and sunk it with one blow

 

[heterotic]

Evilution possibly because it's what programmers would refer to as a kludge. It might possibly work, but it's not pretty.

You kinda get the impression from Genesis that evil and pain, contention, strife, etc. didn't enter the world until after the fall of Adam and Eve. But contention, pain, and strife are what make evolution do its thing. Without the less fit lifeforms being killed before they get a chance to procreate, survival of the fittest doesn't happen.

At least, that's my opinion. And I'm also a semi-respectful agnostic

 

[Tyrael]

I'm kind of peeved at people who only follow the parts of their religion that they believe in.

How anti gay people keep reciting that one verse about how homosexuality is an abomination but forget about the other verses such as :

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

 

[heterotic]

Or "if you've broken one commandment, you've broken them all." For a true Christian, if he's ever told a little white lie, he might as well be riding around in a stolen car cursing his head off, getting a bj from a boy on the floor and shooting innocent passers-by.

 

[Moridin187]

Actually I think you hit the nail directly on the head and sunk it with one blow

Thanks Todd...

As to evolution, it's bullshit, as is most of science. I've said before on this board that I am an ascientist. Science is founded on a faulty principal, that Everything can be understood. Sometime try asking a biologist how long it should take for lifeless primordial ooze to evolve into the simplest of single celled organisms by pure chance. You know how long? 40 billion years. That's just the first step of it. Don't get me off on my anti-science rant. Science has brought about some great things, like the internet, telephones, CDs and other wonders... But don't forget that it's also brought about The Bomb, biological weapons, a hole in the ozone, and an entirely disposable culture...

 

[Guest]

 

[Tyrael]

Hey now don't get all carried away. Science does nothing on it's own. All it is is the name WE humans gave the process of how things work.

Science did not create the Bomb - WE did.

We created the hole in the ozone with our desperate need aerosol products and those other things that produce carbon tetra flourides. Then we tried to ignore the problem hoping it would go away.

How about let's stand up and take some responsibility for our actions instead of looking for more scapegoats.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Interesting point. But, if one was to apply that logic to the all powerful, all loving, all creating God of Christianity, wouldn't it read:

God has brought about some great things, like the internet, telephones, CDs and other wonders... But don't forget that He's also brought about The Bomb, biological weapons, a hole in the ozone, and an entirely disposable culture...

Not neccessarily, Yes if applying the God of Christianity, God created mankind, but he also allowed them free will and dominion. With that mankind was not created as merely android robots to bow and worship at the push of a button but the ability to choose not to worship. He gave mankind a brain to use whatever way they choose to will, whether it be for good, benovolant help mankind causes or evil destroy each other causes, mankinds choice.

 

[heterotic]

I have a subtler disagreement, Moridin. That's an oft-quoted figure, that 40 billion year one. But it's pretty indefinite. Is that 40 billion for a one litre puddle of amino acids, with lightning striking nearby an average of twice a year? Is it for the entire earth, with the estimated climactic conditions as we think they were?
I'm not even sure about the origin of the 40 billion figure, but I doubt that it was rigorously tested.
And that also brings us to another point: The anthropic principle. In a nutshell, it goes like this: "We wouldn't be here, marveling about the fantastic series of chance occurences that led to our creation, if we weren't here at all"
In other words, the probability for something that's already happened is 100%. The probability that if it happened over again, you would be born with your exact genetic sequence, live your life exactly the way you did this time, and end up at this exact age making a post like the one you did is infitesimally remote. But yet, you "beat the odds" the first time, and here you are.
Neither science nor most religions have set a limit on the bounds of the universe(s), and in all the possibilities that are possible, it's impossible that one of them wouldn't have created us.

 

[Tyrael]

Indeed...our choices.

Heh, I feel the need to apologize for my little hissy fit.

And I was the one worried about fights.

Sorry bout that.

 

[Guest]