Bill of Rights...going...going...

Thrillhouse

Back from the dead
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http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0302/hentoff.php

George W. Bush's Constitution
'Does It Take a Lifetime to Question a Man?'
January 3rd, 2003 4:00 PM




It is hard to imagine that America would look kindly on a foreign government that demanded the right to hold some of its own citizens in prison, incommunicado, denying them access to legal assistance for as long as it thought necessary, without ever charging them with a crime.
Nevertheless, that is the position that George Bush's administration has tried to defend in the courts with regard to American citizens whom it has deemed to be "enemy combatants." —The Economist, London, December 14, 2002



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The imprisonment of "enemy combatant" Yaser Esam Hamdi in a naval brig in the United States is not a matter of concern to most Americans, since they do not know of Mr. Hamdi's isolation from the Bill of Rights, and might not care if they did. But the Supreme Court will ultimately decide whether George W. Bush's Constitution will replace—in significant parts—the Constitution that most Americans are also not familiar with.

When Mr. Hamdi's case—though not Mr. Hamdi personally—came before federal judge Robert Doumar in Norfolk, Virginia, that veteran jurist, appointed by Ronald Reagan, was astonished at the sweep of the government's declaration that the president had the right to personally put Hamdi in the brig and strip him of all his constitutional rights after claiming that he was an "enemy combatant." It is also the government's contention that the courts have minimal jurisdiction over the commander in chief as he locks up Americans he calls "enemy combatants" during our war against terrorism.

Nonetheless, Judge Doumar insisted that the government explain itself, and was handed a two-page sworn document, written by Michael Mobbs, a Defense Department official, justifying the president's totally depriving Hamdi of his freedom indefinitely—without his being charged with any crime.

Before getting to the judge's angry reaction to the Mobbs statement, it's necessary to note that just about every reference to Hamdi in the media has said—as printed in the November 1 New York Law Journal—that "Hamdi was seized while fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan." How do we know that to be true? Don't you trust your source—your government?

As Katherine Seelye wrote in The New York Times (August 13, 2001) of Judge Doumar's response to the official Mobbs document giving the government's evidence: "He made very clear that he found the statement lacking in nearly every respect."

A fuller account of what Judge Doumar said is in an extraordinarily valuable report by the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights: A Year of Loss: Reexamining Civil Liberties Since September 11. Released last September 5, the report quotes more of what Judge Doumar indignantly said to the government prosecutor who had handed him the Mobbs document:

"I'm challenging everything in the Mobbs declaration. If you think I don't understand the utilization of words, you are sadly mistaken."

Mr. Mobbs had declared that Hamdi was "affiliated with a Taliban unit and received weapons training." Bolstering the government's case—or so it seemed—were photographs in some of the media of Hamdi carrying a weapon. So what was Judge Doumar's beef?

The Mobbs document, Judge Doumar said bluntly, "makes no effort to explain what 'affiliated' means nor under what criteria this 'affiliation' justified Hamdi's classification as an enemy combatant. The declaration is silent as to what level of 'affiliation' is necessary to warrant enemy combatant status. . . .

"It does not say where or by whom he received weapons training or the nature and content thereof. Indeed, a close inspection of the declaration reveals that [it] never claims that Hamdi was fighting for the Taliban, nor that he was a member of the Taliban. Without access to the screening criteria actually used by the government in its classification decision, this Court is unable to determine whether the government has paid adequate consideration to due process rights to which Hamdi is entitled under his present detention." (Emphasis added.)

Think about that. This American citizen was officially stripped of all his constitutional rights and this flimsy two-page document is the government's explanation before the court.

If the government had more information, why didn't it show that evidence in camera (to the judge in his private chambers)?

I doubt that the relatively few Americans—not counting constitutional lawyers—who have been following this crucial case know how thoroughly Judge Doumar discredited the government's explanation for its indefinite punishment—without charges—of Hamdi.

Another point, this one entirely ignored by the media, is in an amicus brief to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals by the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers:

"[The government claims] that Mr. Hamdi 'surrendered' not to U.S. forces, but to a group of counter-insurgent Afghanis popularly called the 'Northern Alliance.' However, [the government then proceeds] to repeatedly claim that Hamdi was 'captured'—an important distinction when evaluating his legal status vis-à-vis the United States and under international law. One who surrenders before engaging in 'combat' can hardly be classified as a 'combatant' logically, much less legally."

In addition to Mr. Mobbs's pieces of paper, the government prosecutor also told Judge Doumar that the Defense Department had to hold Hamdi for interrogation. And since the war on terrorism has no defined end in sight, he must be "detained" indefinitely.

Said Judge Doumar: "How long does it take to question a man? A year? Two years? Ten years? A lifetime? How long?"

Under this intensive fire, the prosecutor, Gregory G. Garre, an assistant to Solicitor General Theodore Olson, had only this response: "The present detention is lawful."

As Judge Doumar said after he had denounced the two-page declaration: "So the Constitution doesn't apply to Mr. Hamdi?"

I will follow this case through the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals and then, I expect, to the United States Supreme Court. Those nine men and women will decide whether the essential liberties in the Framers' Constitution have been removed by George W. Bush. It's a pity the Democratic Party cares much less about civil liberties than about Bush's tax cuts.
 
Liberation?

How could anyone in their right mind possibly take seriously Bush's claim that he will "liberate" Iraq, when he's trying to take away our freedom here at home?
 
We started to lose the Bill of rights when FDR came into office with his new Deal in 1933
 
If you think the treatment of POWs from Bush's untidy little war is interesting, take a look at the full text of the Patriot Act and the proposed additions to it currently floating around D.C. If the connections between "Homeland Security" and Nazi Germany's "Fatherland Security" aren't obvious enough already, that ought to make it plain.

You don't have to be a conspiracy nut or left-wing reactionary to see the turn toward fascism this country's taken in the last few years.

RS
 
I'd like to add this to the thread:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm.../na_gen_us_congressman_prison_camps&e=1&ncid=

North Carolina congressman says internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II was appropriate
Wed Feb 5, 6:44 PM ET


HIGH POINT, North Carolina - A congressman who heads a homeland security subcommittee said on a radio call-in program that he agreed with the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II.


Rep. Howard Coble, a Republican, made the remark Tuesday on WKZL-FM when a caller suggested Arabs in the United States should be confined. A fellow congressman who was interned as a child criticized Coble for his comment on Wednesday, as did advocacy groups.


Coble, chairman of the Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security, said that he didn't agree with the caller but did agree with President Franklin D. Roosevelt, who established the internment camps.


"We were at war. They (Japanese-Americans) were an endangered species," Coble said. "For many of these Japanese-Americans, it wasn't safe for them to be on the street."


Like most Arab-Americans today, Coble said, most Japanese-Americans during World War II were not America's enemies, but said Roosevelt had to consider the nation's security.


"Some probably were intent on doing harm to us," he said, "just as some of these Arab-Americans are probably intent on doing harm to us."


U.S. Rep. Mike Honda, a Democrat from California and a Japanese-American who spent his early childhood with his family in an internment camp during World War II, said he spoke with Coble on Wednesday to learn more about his views.


"I'm disappointed that he really doesn't understand the impact of what he said," Honda said. "With his leadership position in Congress, that kind of lack of understanding can lead people down the wrong path."


The Japanese American Citizens League called Coble on Wednesday and asked him to issue an apology, while the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee demanded an explanation of Coble's remarks.


It is "a sad day in our country's tradition when an elected official ... openly agrees with an unconstitutional and racist policy long believed to be one of the darkest moments of America's history," the group said in a statement.
 
Dreamguy001 said:
We started to lose the Bill of rights when FDR came into office with his new Deal in 1933

Yeah, it would have been far better to have let half of the country starve to death.
 
Cuckolded_BlK_Male said:
Yeah, it would have been far better to have let half of the country starve to death.

But it would have been the POOR half, duh, so who cares?
 
Consider the source..

What is the track record of these sources, and what is the purpose of these stories?
If the motherfucker is with our enemies, not a citizen, he is under no consideration for "rights" guaranteed to US citizens. (Taliban Johnny)
The origin of the story comes from a country that allows these bastards to operate freely, and is now running blind trying to track them before they hit London.
Pick your fights carefully, you defend the one's that want you and your family dead.
The lawyers have an agenda for these cases, least of all in the name of "freedom" or "rights," nor the safety of the people.
 
Cuckolded_BlK_Male said:
Yeah, it would have been far better to have let half of the country starve to death.

Ecomomic empowerment had nothing to do with the Federal Expansion of the Commerce Clause under Roosevelt.
 
RosevilleCAguy said:
Ecomomic empowerment had nothing to do with the Federal Expansion of the Commerce Clause under Roosevelt.

Bullshit. FDR's aim was to bring the country out of the great depression. Millions were out of work, people were literally starving to death in the streets. The feelings of a few states-rights nuts don't mean diddly against the lives of all of those people.

Thank god for FDR. I shudder to think were this country would be now if not for his leadership. One thing is for certain, had Hoover been elected to another term as President, tens of millions of Americans would have starved to death and wir würden alle Deutsches jetzt sprechen!
 
Let's see. He was captured in a foriegn land, fighting with and for a regime that was responsible for giving aid and succor to the people that perpetrated 9/11.

That makes him an enemy combatant bereft of his constitutional rights. He lost those as soon as he took up arms under a foriegn power against his own government. Tough shit.

As to the rest of the discussion, off point, regarding the "homeland security act", I happen to agree. But one has NOTHING to do with the other.

Ishmael
 
Not being in uniform, most of these clowns should have been handed over to local authorities for summary execution. We're at least keeping them alive long enough to glean some information from them. Then they should be handed back over to local authorities for summary execution.

Every man and woman of arms drawn to a cause knows the price of failure. By taking up arms he or she implicitly agrees to the terms of the contract.
 
Re: Consider the source..

Lost Cause said:
If the motherfucker is with our enemies, not a citizen, he is under no consideration for "rights" guaranteed to US citizens.
I've said it before and I will say it again; ALL people have the same rights - this is why they are called "Human Rights" or "Natural Rights". They aren't called US Citizen Rights, British Rights, African Rights, Asian Rights, etc. - they are called Human Rights.

Now how this applies to this case/scenario is another issue, but don't make the mistake of asserting that only US citizens have rights, because that is just flat out wrong.
 
I'll let you know when I think my rights have been violated.
 
Lost Cause said:

What is the track record of these sources, and what is the purpose of these stories?
If the motherfucker is with our enemies, not a citizen, he is under no consideration for "rights" guaranteed to US citizens. (Taliban Johnny)
The origin of the story comes from a country that allows these bastards to operate freely, and is now running blind trying to track them before they hit London.
Pick your fights carefully, you defend the one's that want you and your family dead.
The lawyers have an agenda for these cases, least of all in the name of "freedom" or "rights," nor the safety of the people.




Originally posted by Ishmael
Let's see. He was captured in a foriegn land, fighting with and for a regime that was responsible for giving aid and succor to the people that perpetrated 9/11.

That makes him an enemy combatant bereft of his constitutional rights. He lost those as soon as he took up arms under a foriegn power against his own government. Tough shit.

As to the rest of the discussion, off point, regarding the "homeland security act", I happen to agree. But one has NOTHING to do with the other.

Ishmael

Ish and LC's reading comprehension skills have a lot to be desired. Here are some relevant quotes:

When Mr. Hamdi's case—though not Mr. Hamdi personally—came before federal judge Robert Doumar in Norfolk, Virginia, that veteran jurist, appointed by Ronald Reagan, was astonished at the sweep of the government's declaration that the president had the right to personally put Hamdi in the brig and strip him of all his constitutional rights after claiming that he was an "enemy combatant." It is also the government's contention that the courts have minimal jurisdiction over the commander in chief as he locks up Americans he calls "enemy combatants" during our war against terrorism.

A fuller account of what Judge Doumar said is in an extraordinarily valuable report by the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights: A Year of Loss: Reexamining Civil Liberties Since September 11. Released last September 5, the report quotes more of what Judge Doumar indignantly said to the government prosecutor who had handed him the Mobbs document:

"I'm challenging everything in the Mobbs declaration. If you think I don't understand the utilization of words, you are sadly mistaken."

Mr. Mobbs had declared that Hamdi was "affiliated with a Taliban unit and received weapons training." Bolstering the government's case—or so it seemed—were photographs in some of the media of Hamdi carrying a weapon. So what was Judge Doumar's beef?

The Mobbs document, Judge Doumar said bluntly, "makes no effort to explain what 'affiliated' means nor under what criteria this 'affiliation' justified Hamdi's classification as an enemy combatant. The declaration is silent as to what level of 'affiliation' is necessary to warrant enemy combatant status. . . .

"It does not say where or by whom he received weapons training or the nature and content thereof. Indeed, a close inspection of the declaration reveals that [it] never claims that Hamdi was fighting for the Taliban, nor that he was a member of the Taliban. Without access to the screening criteria actually used by the government in its classification decision, this Court is unable to determine whether the government has paid adequate consideration to due process rights to which Hamdi is entitled under his present detention." (Emphasis added.)

Think about that. This American citizen was officially stripped of all his constitutional rights and this flimsy two-page document is the government's explanation before the court.

Another point, this one entirely ignored by the media, is in an amicus brief to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals by the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers:

"[The government claims] that Mr. Hamdi 'surrendered' not to U.S. forces, but to a group of counter-insurgent Afghanis popularly called the 'Northern Alliance.' However, [the government then proceeds] to repeatedly claim that Hamdi was 'captured'—an important distinction when evaluating his legal status vis-à-vis the United States and under international law. One who surrenders before engaging in 'combat' can hardly be classified as a 'combatant' logically, much less legally."


Not that I expect you to read- or understand - all that again. Summary:

US citizen
Taken into custody by the Northern Alliance
Stripped of civil rights
No legitimate reason given for his being stripped of those rights
Reagan-appointed judge "astonished" by what the government is trying to pull
 
There's a rather interesting side battle being fought in this case: that of reconsideration of "birthright citizenship".

Hamdi's claim to US citizenship was made after a detailed records seach of his background was done. That search found that Hamdi was born in Louisiana while his parents were working there (his father is an engineer). Both his parents are Saudi citizens and had made no claim for naturalization. He has spenthis life, save that amount of time around his birth, as a Saudi citizen. At least one group has filed to intervene in the case, so that Hamdi's citizenship could be reconsidered.

The contention is that "birthright citizenship" - being born in this country, regardless of your parent's status making you a citizen - is contrary to the intent of the 14th Amendment. They have precedent for their claim in many ways. For instance, children born to foreign nationals officially stationed in the US (such as diplomats) are not US citizens. They believe that this may logically be applied to Hamdi.

But aside from that, the question really is: How much evidence is necessary to decide whether a person is an enemy conbatant? The court's decision seems to be that although the court does have judicial review over the military during wartime, the military must have very wide latitude to act in the interests of national security and safety of lives. I don't see a real problem with that, though I personally would love to see the administration draw up a set of criteria it wishes to use. That's not likely to happen because it's in the interest of national security to keep the net as broad as possible.
 
You know, it's a sad day when the Secretary of State can "borrow" the paper of a Columbia Graduate student and present the student's suppositions as fact. It's a sadder day when a selected president can say "the risk of doing nothing (in Iraq) is too great" in regards to a country where we have not found a smoking gun but does not feel action in North Korea, a country happily waving around it's nucleur capabilities, is necessary at this time.

I was in New York last weekend, participating in the largest global anti-war protest ever, and I am pissed that Bush would completely ignore the unprecedented outpouring of anti-war sentiment. There are other solutions at this moment in time. I do not mean to suggest that Hussein isn't a cruel dictator...he is. However, the US has HUGE problems at home that we should think about. Alternatively, if we want to dictate worldwide morality, why aren't we doing something about the traffic in human beings that is still happening in Sudan. Why not end human slavery in Sudan instead of attacking Iraq? Oh, that's right! There's no oil in Sudan. Let's not hide our heads in the sand and pretend that Bush is really looking out for our best interests.
 
deliciously_naughty said:
You know, it's a sad day when the Secretary of State can "borrow" the paper of a Columbia Graduate student and present the student's suppositions as fact. It's a sadder day when a selected president can say "the risk of doing nothing (in Iraq) is too great" in regards to a country where we have not found a smoking gun but does not feel action in North Korea, a country happily waving around it's nucleur capabilities, is necessary at this time.

I was in New York last weekend, participating in the largest global anti-war protest ever, and I am pissed that Bush would completely ignore the unprecedented outpouring of anti-war sentiment. There are other solutions at this moment in time. I do not mean to suggest that Hussein isn't a cruel dictator...he is. However, the US has HUGE problems at home that we should think about. Alternatively, if we want to dictate worldwide morality, why aren't we doing something about the traffic in human beings that is still happening in Sudan. Why not end human slavery in Sudan instead of attacking Iraq? Oh, that's right! There's no oil in Sudan. Let's not hide our heads in the sand and pretend that Bush is really looking out for our best interests.
:confused:

What does this have to do with this thread? We are discussing something else altogether. :rolleyes:
 
deliciously_naughty said:
You know, it's a sad day when the Secretary of State can "borrow" the paper of a Columbia Graduate student and present the student's suppositions as fact. It's a sadder day when a selected president can say "the risk of doing nothing (in Iraq) is too great" in regards to a country where we have not found a smoking gun but does not feel action in North Korea, a country happily waving around it's nucleur capabilities, is necessary at this time.

I was in New York last weekend, participating in the largest global anti-war protest ever, and I am pissed that Bush would completely ignore the unprecedented outpouring of anti-war sentiment. There are other solutions at this moment in time. I do not mean to suggest that Hussein isn't a cruel dictator...he is. However, the US has HUGE problems at home that we should think about. Alternatively, if we want to dictate worldwide morality, why aren't we doing something about the traffic in human beings that is still happening in Sudan. Why not end human slavery in Sudan instead of attacking Iraq? Oh, that's right! There's no oil in Sudan. Let's not hide our heads in the sand and pretend that Bush is really looking out for our best interests.

I want to poke really, really huge holes in this, in about a dozen places, but I just can't today. I've done it already in too many other places and, quite honestly, I"m getting tired of pointing out the holes. :(
 
Re: Re: Consider the source..

The Heretic said:
I've said it before and I will say it again; ALL people have the same rights - this is why they are called "Human Rights" or "Natural Rights". They aren't called US Citizen Rights, British Rights, African Rights, Asian Rights, etc. - they are called Human Rights.

Now how this applies to this case/scenario is another issue, but don't make the mistake of asserting that only US citizens have rights, because that is just flat out wrong.
The rights of U.S. citizens are different than the rights of everyone else in this instance. If there wasn't a distinction, this wouldn't be important.

TB4p
 
Ya'know......

"Poultry is just another way of saying chicken."

Which makes about as much relevance to the posted opposition to the containment of terrorist supporters.
The gov would not even consider this type of confinement if they had ANY doubt that it was wrong, and subject to a lawsuit after the prosecution and possible aquittal on spurious grounds. Think about it.
 
Re: Re: Re: Consider the source..

teddybear4play said:
The rights of U.S. citizens are different than the rights of everyone else in this instance. If there wasn't a distinction, this wouldn't be important.

TB4p
The rights are the same - they have just been infringed. Everybdoy has the same rights because said rights are not derived from citizenship or location, but rather our human nature. Our freedom to exercise our rights may not be the same, or our rights may be infringed due to location or citizenship, but the rights do not change when we step over a national or state boundry because we do not change.

In short, there are differences between "rights", "freedom" and "liberty". People often get them mixed up, and people often use the word "rights" when they are really talking about "freedoms".
 
Re: Ya'know......

Lost Cause said:
"Poultry is just another way of saying chicken."

Which makes about as much relevance to the posted opposition to the containment of terrorist supporters.
The gov would not even consider this type of confinement if they had ANY doubt that it was wrong, and subject to a lawsuit after the prosecution and possible aquittal on spurious grounds. Think about it.

If you believe this I'd like you to read "Only What We Could Carry"
edited by Lawson Fusao Inada.

All narratives of the Japanese interment experience from the internees.

including George Takai aka Mr Sulu from Star Trek.

I was moved to tears by the stories of Nisei; American Born Japanese.

It doesn't seem to me from these stories that the govenment was looking after it's own in this case.
 
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