Big Bad Bushy

[Dixon Carter Lee]

You know, people lose me when they start talking about Presidents like they're Miss Crabtree on the PTA. As much as I dislike George W. Bush, and don't feel he's qualified for his office, I have no doubt that he's not trying to kill Saddam Hussein for oil, revenge, distraction from the economy, or because he likes really cheap humus. The arguments against Iraq are real, and the Oval Office isn't a a sandlot.

I came of age during Vietnam and Watergate, a double whammy reason for forever distrusting and even hating the American government. I was embarrassed every Veteran's Day when my dad hung the American Flag in front of our house, as if any minute Abbie Hoffman would come by and laugh. The first U.S. President I got to know real well was the psychological time bomb that was Richard Nixon. I couldn't understand why we hated Russia. We had a German student come live with us for a while, the first European I ever met, and I spent day after day apologizing for our culture, our militancy, and our deodorant. Mad Magazine made more sense to me than the U.S. Constitution. So believe me when I tell you that I'm no rube printing out sound bites from the White House Press Secretary and binding them into a Bible. Tricky Dick, the Fall of Saigon and the Chicago Seven are forever in my heart and mind.

But I grew up and asked harder questions and I realized that the "spoon fed propoganda" thing works both ways. If you believe that the entire system is corrupt and nothing any politician says is true then you should just give up, assume the whole world is run from Skull and Crossbones rec-room at Yale, get yourself a tin-foil hat, and spend your life pretending Socialism "never really got a chance".

I'm not that silly, answers aren't that pat, and the office of the U.S. President isn't the He-man Women Hater's Club. I'm what most Americans my age are, a hell of a lot smarter, savvier, and discerning than Bill O'Reilly, the Libertarians and every angry young man with a yellowed copy of Das Kapital in the back pocket of his jeans gives us credit for. And, I'm telling you, you get nowhere with us when you start talking about Bush's administration like they're bullying eight year olds skateboarding through a Bagdad Mall. Do that and I can't hear all the actual, real, important points you have to make over the snotty nose blowing.

 

[A Desert Rose]

If you plan on moving again, please give me your forwarding address.....

Let's do keep in touch.

Sincerely better looking than you,
Rose

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

LOL

Sorry, Rose. I got your letter though:

Desert Rose said:
I'd guess Dixon, that we are close to the same age, although I look better than you do.

It's about being jaded. Do you remember when you discovered that there could longer be blind faith in our government and our elected officials? I remember a series of events that one after another, desensitized me to believing that those in power wanted what was in my best interest. You named several in your post.

Nothing and no one is perfect and I guess that realizing that fact is what being a rational (and jaded) person is, as opposed to a hopeless romantic who seeks out the eutopia that does not and never will exist. (Do you hear me whispering your name, REDWAVE?)

 

[gotdatmony]

You Go Boy!!!

 

[Problem Child]

You know, people lose me when they start talking about Presidents like they're Miss Crabtree on the PTA. As much as I dislike George W. Bush, and don't feel he's qualified for his office, I have no doubt that he's not trying to kill Saddam Hussein for oil, revenge, distraction from the economy, or because he likes really cheap humus. The arguments against Iraq are real, and the Oval Office isn't a a sandlot.

I came of age during Vietnam and Watergate, a double whammy reason for forever distrusting and even hating the American government. I was embarrassed every Veteran's Day when my dad hung the American Flag in front of our house, as if any minute Abbie Hoffman would come by and laugh. The first U.S. President I got to know real well was the psychological time bomb that was Richard Nixon. I couldn't understand why we hated Russia. We had a German student come live with us for a while, the first European I ever met, and I spent day after day apologizing for our culture, our militancy, and our deodorant. Mad Magazine made more sense to me than the U.S. Constitution. So believe me when I tell you that I'm no rube printing out sound bites from the White House Press Secretary and binding them into a Bible. Tricky Dick, the Fall of Saigon and the Chicago Seven are forever in my heart and mind.

But I grew up and asked harder questions and I realized that the "spoon fed propoganda" thing works both ways. If you believe that the entire system is corrupt and nothing any politician says is true then you should just give up, assume the whole world is run from Skull and Crossbones rec-room at Yale, get yourself a tin-foil hat, and spend your life pretending Socialism "never really got a chance".

I'm not that silly, answers aren't that pat, and the office of the U.S. President isn't the He-man Women Hater's Club. I'm what most Americans my age are, a hell of a lot smarter, savvier, and discerning than Bill O'Reilly, the Libertarians and every angry young man with a yellowed copy of Das Kapital in the back pocket of his jeans gives us credit for. And, I'm telling you, you get nowhere with us when you start talking about Bush's administration like they're bullying eight year olds skateboarding through a Bagdad Mall. Do that and I can't hear all the actual, real, important points you have to make over the snotty nose blowing.

Racist, homophobic, meat-eating, warmongering, elitist-scum, FASCIST!!!!!

 

[Spinaroonie]

God dammit people

If you're gonna do a photomanip at least save it so that the compression doesn't turn your image to shit.

 

[A Desert Rose]

God dammit people

If you're gonna do a photomanip at least save it so that the compression doesn't turn your image to shit.

And that means what?

 

[Pagliacci]

You know, people lose me when they start talking about Presidents like they're Miss Crabtree on the PTA. As much as I dislike George W. Bush, and don't feel he's qualified for his office, I have no doubt that he's not trying to kill Saddam Hussein for oil, revenge, distraction from the economy, or because he likes really cheap humus. The arguments against Iraq are real, and the Oval Office isn't a a sandlot.

I came of age during Vietnam and Watergate, a double whammy reason for forever distrusting and even hating the American government. I was embarrassed every Veteran's Day when my dad hung the American Flag in front of our house, as if any minute Abbie Hoffman would come by and laugh. The first U.S. President I got to know real well was the psychological time bomb that was Richard Nixon. I couldn't understand why we hated Russia. We had a German student come live with us for a while, the first European I ever met, and I spent day after day apologizing for our culture, our militancy, and our deodorant. Mad Magazine made more sense to me than the U.S. Constitution. So believe me when I tell you that I'm no rube printing out sound bites from the White House Press Secretary and binding them into a Bible. Tricky Dick, the Fall of Saigon and the Chicago Seven are forever in my heart and mind.

But I grew up and asked harder questions and I realized that the "spoon fed propoganda" thing works both ways. If you believe that the entire system is corrupt and nothing any politician says is true then you should just give up, assume the whole world is run from Skull and Crossbones rec-room at Yale, get yourself a tin-foil hat, and spend your life pretending Socialism "never really got a chance".

I'm not that silly, answers aren't that pat, and the office of the U.S. President isn't the He-man Women Hater's Club. I'm what most Americans my age are, a hell of a lot smarter, savvier, and discerning than Bill O'Reilly, the Libertarians and every angry young man with a yellowed copy of Das Kapital in the back pocket of his jeans gives us credit for. And, I'm telling you, you get nowhere with us when you start talking about Bush's administration like they're bullying eight year olds skateboarding through a Bagdad Mall. Do that and I can't hear all the actual, real, important points you have to make over the snotty nose blowing.

I don't feel that this post is directed squarely at me,though I know I might've made it seem like I'm one of them.
The problem could be that I equalize the President of the US with the government he has under him.Instead of dividing the blame equally as should be I point it at him where more than him are to blame.
I tend to do this when it comes to politics by and large.

That said I'm not only against President Bushs tapdancing,I abhor it no matter which politician does it.In my world of make believe there's less hypocrisy among politicians and a bit more straight talk and go forth and do what you say,instead of treading water and humming and hawing as is often the case.

I'm not to sure if this makes any greater sense or changes anything on the grand scale of things,though I hope my sentiments regarding politicians in general is conveyed in the manner in which I mean it.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Racist, homophobic, meat-eating, warmongering, elitist-scum, FASCIST!!!!!

That's MISTER racist, homophobic, meat-eating, warmongering, elitist-scum, fascist to you.

After the Revolution you will be assigned to a tractor factory in East Orange, New Jersey.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: Big Bad Bushy

In my world of make believe there's less hypocrisy among politicians and a bit more straight talk and go forth and do what you say,instead of treading water and humming and hawing as is often the case.

Yep, yep.... it is a fantasy world, pal. If you can't open your eyes, use those binoculars you got there, ok? ~smiling~

 

[sunstruck]

We don't elect great leaders anymore. Is that because there aren't any, or is it because we are more interested in propaganda and hype than leadership and competency?

Bush won based on his ability to charm most of middle America. He won because charm and well, personality were so lacking in Gore. He won based on it, now he thinks he can lead based on it. The smoke screen is thining.

 

[Pagliacci]

Re: Re: Re: Big Bad Bushy

Yep, yep.... it is a fantasy world, pal. If you can't open your eyes, use those binoculars you got there, ok? ~smiling~

[Mock drama]If you seriously think I'm going to listen to someone that makes fun of my eventually existing eyesight problem then you better think again.
This is a typical response when people pour their hearts out on this site.All they get is someone trying to throw dirt on them and pointing out their shortcomings.[/Mock drama]

At least I'm aware of it and stick my head out of the clouds once in a while.The binoculars are just there to make a decent David Hasselhof in Baywatch impersonation,women dig it.Or so said the guy selling the binoculars to me.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

The problem could be that I equalize the President of the US with the government he has under him.

I can't do that. I look at both the Oval office and the Federal Government and I see thousands of lobbyists, congressmen, Senators, aides, military advisors, analysts, intelligence agencies, judicial appointees, etc.

Between black and white is a whole rainbow of gray.

 

[Pagliacci]

I can't do that. I look at both the Oval office and the Federal Government and I see thousands of lobbyists, congressmen, Senators, aides, military advisors, analysts, intelligence agencies, judicial appointees, etc.

Between black and white is a whole rainbow of gray.

I know about the rainbow of gray,though someone has to hang for the mistakes.
It's easier to point at one man and scream bloody murder than it is to point in the right direction,especially when it comes to a quagmire of commitees et al.
It's the cheap way but it saves time instead of having to dig through tons of paperwork to find the culprit.

It also saves time in discussions in pointing out a scapegoat if you will and them heap shit on him/her.

I try to thread the middle way between people here like you and PC,who are two examples of people who has enough knowledge to debate certain things,and Yoyo and Hanns on the other end of the scale.

The thing is to admit you're not as knowledgable as others and read what they say so you might learn.

 

[lavender]

 

[CoolidgEffect]

Between black and white is a whole rainbow of gray.

That's great. Can I steal that quote?

 

[TWB]

I would give up being a vegetarian and turn cannibal if I could rid the world of George Bush, Dick Cheney, and Rummy by eating them in one sitting.

 

[TWB]

I can't do that. I look at both the Oval office and the Federal Government and I see thousands of lobbyists, congressmen, Senators, aides, military advisors, analysts, intelligence agencies, judicial appointees, etc.

Between black and white is a whole rainbow of gray.

But I think George is color blind, including the grey.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

That's great. Can I steal that quote?

Be my guest.

Excellent posts above.

 

[Hamletmaschine]

The Bay of Pigs, the Vietnam conflict, Watergate, Iran-Contra, the Challenger launch ... in all these cases a group of decent, intelligent human beings made a series of decisions that no decent, intelligent human being would make.

What is of concern here is not Bush's ideology or his morals or even his intelligence, but merely the fear that he has stopped listening to anyone who would question the decisions he and some of his advisors seem to have reached.

I don't fear a Republican in the White House or a Democrat in the White House. I fear Groupthink in the White House.

 

[Laurel]

The Bay of Pigs, the Vietnam conflict, Watergate, Iran-Contra, the Challenger launch ... in all these cases a group of decent, intelligent human beings made a series of decisions that no decent, intelligent human being would make.

What is of concern here is not Bush's ideology or his morals or even his intelligence, but merely the fear that he has stopped listening to anyone who would question the decisions he and some of his advisors seem to have reached.

I don't fear a Republican in the White House or a Democrat in the White House. I fear Groupthink in the White House.

Well said. Excellent.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

"Groupthink". I like that. Orwell?

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I like this definition...

Groupthink

"Groupthink is a concept that was identified by Irving Janis that refers to faulty decision-making in a group. Groups experiencing groupthink do not consider all alternatives and they desire unanimity at the expense of quality decisions."

-----------------------

Irving, Janis. (1972). Victims of groupthink. Boston: Houghton Mifflin; Irving, Janis. (1982). Groupthink: Psychological studies of policy decisions and fiascos. 2nd ed. Boston: Houghton Mifflin.

http://www.abacon.com/commstudies/groups/groupthink.html

 

[Ishmael]

There are very legitimate reasons for worrying about Bush's foreign policy team.

First, we have to look at the fact that the military machine has taken control of our foreign policy. Not many can refute that Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice are dictating our foreign policy and the Colin Powell's of the world are taking a very distant second seat.

This is a myth Lavy. Fortunately the military has never dictated foriegn policy in this country. There is no one that is more sensitive to the costs of war than the military. Afterall, they are the ones that will be fighting and dying. The rabid gung-ho generals spouting blood and guts are a manufacture of Hollywood. The generals that do spew forth are not promoted. Patton was a Col. at the start of WWII. MacArthur wanted to nuke the Chinese and got fired. And lastly, if this were some cabal of fire breathing militarists, congress would not be giving it's approval so easily. Election year not with standing.

Second, this entire war flies in the face of the very doctrine that Colin Powell created. The Powell Doctrine was the doctrine espoused by Republicans on the Senate Foreign Relations committee as well as the platform the Republicans ran on regarding intervention in the last 3 or 4 elections.

The fact that this intervention cannot comply with the principles of this doctrine, the fact that it seems short sighted, the fact that no endgame is in sight, and the fact that we have very little support from the rest of the world are all very legitimate reasons for slowing down our parade to war against Saddam.

I don't think you have to have your head up your ass or be a "young and naive liberal" to recognize the validity of such arguments.

On this I have to agree with you. I merely hope that Powell sticks to his guns in the cabinet meetings. As he has been given a great deal of latitude in his speaking outside the oval office, I have to believe that he is just as forthright in that same office.

Ishamel

PS. You were doing so well until that "head up your ass" thing.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Hmm. Yet another buzz phrase for the concept of "cognative dissonance."