"Begin a new World! Begin America!"

[amicus]

...a quote from Thomas Paine, prior to the American Revolution.

While watching a History Channel program, 'The Revolution', I heard these words spoken and began to think.

As time has gone by and more have researched, written and extemporized on the origins and history of the American Revolution, the more amazed I am at the audacity of our forefathers.

It reminds me, yet again, that we, the children of these audacious colonists, have lost sight of the true revolution of the human spirit that took place so long ago.

Thousands upon thousands of British Loyalists fled back to Britain or to Canada so as not to become a part of the revolution.

Half of those remaining wanted no part in the new fangled concept of 'independence' from mother England and merely stood on the sidelines.

The concept, that if a people were dissatisfied with their form of government, they could change it, by force if necessary, is a lasting heritage in America.

I sense a crossroads approaching in American history. I feel we are about to succumb to a strong central government, if not ruled by a King, then certainly by a Monarch clothed in social planning and coercion.

Gone, is even an open discussion and advocacy of the principles upon which this nation was founded. School children no longer respect the magnificent efforts of those who founded this nation.

There is no real concluding paragraph to this small essay; what will be, will be.

Amicus...

 

[DesertPirate]

Ami is on the soapbox, we can use the ballot box to cause change this year. Half of all congresscritters should be subject to the jury box right now!

There are 4 boxes to be used when dealing with government: Soap, Ballot, Jury, & Ammo. Use in that order!

I really hope that people will vote for new bodies to replace every incumbant this year, it is the only way to cause a change, short of armed rebellion. This includes all state and local elections. Party doesn't matter since both are bought and paid for!

Profesional politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem!
Insanity - doing the same thing the same way and expecting different results.

 

[amicus]

I suppose it is a 'soapbox' DP, I was hoping perhaps a few others had seen the series; I also mentioned a series on John Adams I have been following a seven parter that gives a somewhat different view of the revolutionary years.

It reallly is quite educational and informative, I have never seen the period of history presented in quite that manner...

ah, well, thank you for your comment...be well...

amicus...

 

[al_Ussa]

I have to wonder if that vital 'spark' in the human soul has been extinguished. There was a day when people would stand up to injustice, stand up for what was right... When pushed too far, through oppression, greed or whatever, they would fight tooth and nail for what they believed in.

Now, though, people seem to have grown apathetic. The ancients were great, but modern man has been emasculated. In the name of an intangible concept called 'progress' we threw out the baby with the bath water. The evangelicals have fed an entire generation on nothing but lies, telling them to complacently sit back and accept all this crap, instilling in them a belief that some sort of boring world view is all we should ever hope to aspire for.

I for one, miss diversity, I miss passion, I miss adventure... These are the greatness that the men of old aspired towards. Religious fanatics seek to chain our egos, our desires, to their own bland world views. It is disgusting, they have created an entire race of weak milksops.

I honestly doubt we will see a revolution, at least not here in N.A. We shall have to look elsewhere for the future. After all, when western Rome fell, the eastern Empire continued strong for centuries (and was naturally suceeded by the Ottomans, who took up the mantle of Roman civ). The Mongols conquered all of Asia, only to collapse into smaller states; some of which continued on to the modern era (like the Mughals in India). Once Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands were world powers, only to be over taken by France, England and Russia. We shall see civilization prevail, even if America falls

 

[sethp]

There is too much pioneer spirit still left in this America still echoing with the forefathers wisdom.

All things change but at our core those values still ring true

 

[al_Ussa]

There is too much pioneer spirit still left in this America still echoing with the forefathers wisdom.

All things change but at our core those values still ring true

I hope your right. I really do.

But I've seen far too much complacency here. The religious reich, devise political loons, and the general apathy and ignorance that are the baser parts of human nature make me less than optimistic about the future. Honestly, I hope to see some change over the next decade or such.

 

[amicus]

al_Ussa
Virgin....


~~~

Welcome to the forum and thank you for contributing a comment...

I would counter that by pointing out the differences in time and technology between ancient history and modern day.

There has never before in all of history been a time quite like ours. The knowledge available at fingertip is astonishing. What we have learned about nature, the earth and the solar system, the universe in general is astounding.

People are fond of saying that all civilizations rise and fall, as if history must inevitable repeat...I challenge that.

Further, with the fall of Rome and the Roman Empire, the world plunged into a thousand year long dark ages, I doubt that will reoccur.

I think the concept of human liberty will never be extinguished but I also think we or our progeny, will have to fight to reestablish it against the collectivists.

such a deal...

amicus...

 

[sethp]

I hope your right. I really do.

But I've seen far too much complacency here. The religious reich, devise political loons, and the general apathy and ignorance that are the baser parts of human nature make me less than optimistic about the future. Honestly, I hope to see some change over the next decade or such.

Everyone always feels this way after a term or two of republican presidency and then it changes and then we complain because we've gotten too liberal and it's just a cycle.

I do believe that our current political system is stagnant with public relations experts getting elected and not actual leaders. Even barack obama as different as he is ..is still just a politician.. he hasn't been a leader.

and too many lobyists. and I'm not down on the whole electoral college thing ...but

It's despite everything that's wrong with america. and the governemtn and the corporations and the cia and all the conspiricies true or not. this is still probably the best country in the world.

 

[amicus]

Part of the learning experience from the newly conceived and produced television shows I previously mentioned, is the ever present influence of special interests, (lobbyists), those who disagreed, and wanted a King installed in America and the many who were apathetic and just wished to be left alone...

From that aspect, little has changed.

Rather than delineate into Republican and Democrat, I prefer to categorize in a fashion that concentrates of those who desire individual freedom and those who fear independence of thought and action.

It is a coin toss, I think, as the American Revolution was, as to who will be victorious in the outcome and whether the compromises required in either case, will corrupt the end result. It did before, it most likely will again.

Amicus...

 

[al_Ussa]

al_Ussa
Virgin....


~~~

Welcome to the forum and thank you for contributing a comment...

And you are welcome for your warm reception my friend.

I would counter that by pointing out the differences in time and technology between ancient history and modern day.

There has never before in all of history been a time quite like ours. The knowledge available at fingertip is astonishing. What we have learned about nature, the earth and the solar system, the universe in general is astounding.

That is true. One critical difference is the accessibility of technology, and the fact that one can communicate and even travel to other parts of the globe at an unprecedented rate. The only problem is, of course, the increased control given to elites.

People are fond of saying that all civilizations rise and fall, as if history must inevitable repeat...I challenge that.

Yes... and no. Civilizations and even empires have risen and fallen, and will continue to do so. As I said, in the 20th century we witnessed the collapse of the Russian, Ottoman, Austro-Hungarian, German, British, French and Portuguese empires, the rise (and fall) of the Japanese empire and the Soviet Union, the rise of the United States as a world power, the creation of multinational alliances like NATO and the Warsaw Pact, the two world system, and now the one world system.

Now we are seeing some chaos and stagnation. NAFTA, the EU, the rise of China, the miracle that is India, the fall of the Paper Tiger economies in SE Asia, the Celtic Tigers in western Europe, population changes and so forth are challenging traditional assumptions about how the world will be. I am of the opinion that India, South Africa and Brazil will be playing a bigger role in the future than many care to think.

Further, with the fall of Rome and the Roman Empire, the world plunged into a thousand year long dark ages

No, no, no. The collapse of the WESTERN Roman Empire did create chaos in western Europe and north Africa. Absolutely. Thats what led to smaller, regional based polities and the whole feudal system. But Rome's power was usurped by barbarian kingdoms - the Goths, Vandals, Franks, and so forth. Charlemagne's empire was really an attempt to recreate Rome, and was fairly successful in conquering a good chunk of Europe.

BUT in the East Rome continued onward. The eastern Roman empire (better known as Byzantium) DID continue on for centuries. Even reconquered the entire Mediterranean for a century or so. The rise of the Arab Caliphate in the 7th century created another empire, spanning from al-Andalus to Mesopotamia (and in the process depriving Rome of control over Palestinea, Syria and Egyptos as well as overturning the Sassanid Persians, longtime rivals of Rome who outlasted the collapse of the western empire).

This assessment also doesn't take into account the thriving kingdoms and even empires in Southeast Asia and Ethiopia, not to mention further into Asia. Throughout Europe's 'dark ages' places such as Baghdad, Damascus, Cairo, Cordoba, Constantinopolis, Samarqand, Malacca and Delhi thrived as centers of art, literature, learning and craftsmanship.

I doubt that will reoccur.

IF you accept the integrated systems view, then the next collapse will be on a global scale. While that doesn't mean that bear-skin clad, muscle bound warlords will run rampant through the streets, it does mean we would see a collapse of large scale states... possibily Balkanization, as well as economic, social and military problems around the world. Some places - Haiti or Somalia maybe - wouldn't be all that changed. But for a country like, say, Brazil, or China, or Canada... administration would be impossible.

I think the concept of human liberty will never be extinguished but I also think we or our progeny, will have to fight to reestablish it against the collectivists.

such a deal...

amicus...

Possibly.

Everyone always feels this way after a term or two of republican presidency and then it changes and then we complain because we've gotten too liberal and it's just a cycle.

I rather prefer a Republican, truth be told. But more on fiscal issues. Much better to have the .gov stay out of business and let capitalism run its course. Much more worrying to me, though, are the religious fanatics who think they can run our country into the ground and impose their arbitrary and repressive social mores on everyone else. Whats worse, many seem to have taken a rather apocalyptic world view. Don't get me wrong, everything crumbles, and I look forward to partying through all that... I just don't want to have my life (or that of other people) ended prematurely by people starting WW III in the belief that'll make Jesus come back.

I do believe that our current political system is stagnant with public relations experts getting elected and not actual leaders.

Amen to that.

Even barack obama as different as he is ..is still just a politician.. he hasn't been a leader.

Obama is interesting. Hes probably the most liberal politician that America has ever seen. Much closer to European politicians.

and too many lobyists. and I'm not down on the whole electoral college thing ...but

It's despite everything that's wrong with america. and the governemtn and the corporations and the cia and all the conspiricies true or not. this is still probably the best country in the world.

I don't want to see a good thing ruined.

 

[amicus]

My, my; a deep, thoughtful and methodical exposition, rare for this forum but entirely welcome, at least to these old eyes.

I neither question nor doubt your recital of the 'eastern Roman empire'. Although my knowledge and interest is not as intense as yours, I am one of the first to refer to the ancient Chinese who led the modern world in many discoveries within the various realms of science and technology.

However, neither the efficacy of the Eastern world in a continuing effort, nor the demise of the Roman Empire, or all that followed in Medieval Europe are the focal point of my interest.

It is rather that startling declaration of human independence from King and God, uttered first in perpetuity on this continent, that is to me, the true beginning of modern man.

Many on this forum and elsewhere, decry that statement as faulty, as it did not include, as it implied, 'all men are created equal', but rather a select few, leaving out women and minority races.

As if those issues were not hotly debated throughout the 1770's and later. But alas, politics now was politics then and compromise is the glue that held both the Declaration and the Constitution together.

I would not venture the reason as to why such thoughts did not take root in the middle or far east. or for that matter, in Europe as it emerged from the Dark Ages. I do know, however, that the ideas found fertile ground on the new North American continent, the New World, although a variety of reasons will spring to the minds of many.

It was the unfettered freedom of thought in a mind such as Edison and Watts, that lifted the burden of labor from the shoulders of men and animals and placed it on machines and the freedom of enterprise that enabled electricity to light the darkness the had prevailed throughout the history of man.

The startling technical innovations, important as they were, do not hold a candle to the concept of individual human freedom and liberty, the entire keystone to the modern world.

Like the fable of Pandora's box, once realized, the concept of human freedom will never again be extinguished.

There will be a renewal of that human spirit that cherishes freedom; to me, that is axiomatic and self evident in concert with the nature of man.

When, where and how, are matters of speculation, but I assure one and all, it is a matter of when, not if, for it will occur.

Thank you for joining my little thread of thought and inquiry.

Amicus...

 

[cloudy]

I would not venture the reason as to why such thoughts did not take root in the middle or far east. or for that matter, in Europe as it emerged from the Dark Ages. I do know, however, that the ideas found fertile ground on the new North American continent, the New World, although a variety of reasons will spring to the minds of many.

Because the idea was taken wholesale from the Iroquois Confederacy.

As much as you may hate it, we came up with it first.

 

[amicus]

Ah, my dear Cloudy, how I love thee, let me count the ways...

Because of you, I watch every nerdy show on television that speaks of Native American history, the most recent being the PBS Lewis & Clark rendition, that spoke very highly of most, but not all, the various peoples they met on their trek.

As you know, but may have forgotten, my interest in Native Americans and the reason for my six volume novel based on their history, was a question as to why, when compared to other cultures in the pre historic world, just why that culture remained basically stagnant for five thousand years.

I still do not have a definitive answer, even with the tremendous amount of research I have done.

I do appreciate your occasional poke in the ribs, but native Americans should have created a written language and codified the ideas and concepts you attribute to them.

regards....as always...like it or not...

amicus...

 

[R. Richard]

I rather prefer a Republican, truth be told. But more on fiscal issues. Much better to have the .gov stay out of business and let capitalism run its course. Much more worrying to me, though, are the religious fanatics who think they can run our country into the ground and impose their arbitrary and repressive social mores on everyone else. Whats worse, many seem to have taken a rather apocalyptic world view. Don't get me wrong, everything crumbles, and I look forward to partying through all that... I just don't want to have my life (or that of other people) ended prematurely by people starting WW III in the belief that'll make Jesus come back.

The problem is not really that someone will start world war III to bring Jesus back. In Twelver Shis theology, the Imam Muhammad ibn Hasan (868–Present), also known as al-Mahdi, will reappear from occultation and lead he Muslims to victory in world war III, followed by a world wide caliphate.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a Twelver Shia.

 

[R. Richard]

I do appreciate your occasional poke in the ribs, but native Americans should have created a written language and codified the ideas and concepts you attribute to them.

Amicus, native Americans did create a written language. The Maya, in central America created a written language. They may or may not have codified their social ideas and concepts. Alas, I don't read Maya script.

 

[cloudy]

Amicus, native Americans did create a written language. The Maya, in central America created a written language. They may or may not have codified their social ideas and concepts. Alas, I don't read Maya script.

not only that, all but a few of their books were destroyed by the priests that came in the footsteps of Cortez.

The Cherokee also had a written language.

 

[rgraham666]

Wandered into this thread by accident. Sigh. I shouldn't comment but I will.

The U.S. is a doomed nation. Too many of its citizens no longer deal in compromise, practicality and wisdom. They deal in Truth. A Truth that must be bought into existence no matter what the cost.

And that Truth does not allow for a difference of opinion nor questioning of its motives or effectiveness.

The Truth promises a utopia. And such utopias always come at a very high price.

Sad.

 

[amicus]

R.Richard, Cloudy, my research indicate hieroglyphs and pictographs, but not an alphabet or written material.

It would be easy to comprehend that these material would not have survived, as few other ancient writing have either.

Much as you make me out an ogre in all things, because I have a different set of values than you, I am not such, rather simply seeking to learn without the subjective belief's that seem so much a part of most when they advocate things.

ami

 

[cloudy]

R.Richard, Cloudy, my research indicate hieroglyphs and pictographs, but not an alphabet or written material.

It would be easy to comprehend that these material would not have survived, as few other ancient writing have either.

Much as you make me out an ogre in all things, because I have a different set of values than you, I am not such, rather simply seeking to learn without the subjective belief's that seem so much a part of most when they advocate things.

ami

Your research is wrong, then, ami. The Maya did, indeed, have a written language, and so did the Cherokee. Look again.

 

[amicus]

The Mayan people did amazing things in mathematics and astronomy and even agriculture; although my research did not mention a written language, I do not doubt the possibility.

The Cheyenne...if you might provide a link to your source material I would be grateful.

Thank you...

amicus...

 

[cloudy]

The Mayan people did amazing things in mathematics and astronomy and even agriculture; although my research did not mention a written language, I do not doubt the possibility.

The Cheyenne...if you might provide a link to your source material I would be grateful.

Thank you...

amicus...

The Cherokee language:

from wiki

about Sequoyah

Cherokee Nation site

Cherokee alphabet

 

[amicus]

The Cherokee language:

from wiki

about Sequoyah

Cherokee Nation site

Cherokee alphabet

~~~

I followed all four links and only Wiki: "Cherokee (ᏣᎳᎩ, Tsalagi) is an Iroquoian language spoken by the Cherokee people which uses a unique syllabary writing system." implied a written language.

However, the piece goes on to state that the written Cherokee was invented around 1812.

Thus there remains no support of your contention that any 'American' native Americans, had a pre historical written language, comparable to other cultures of the world during the same time period.

Which was, of course, my assertion.

The question still remains, why?

Amicus...

 

[fifty5]

I know little of which I speak, but the little I do know means that I think the Declaration - with it's amendments - is a truly liberal declaration, grossly at variance with much current US policy - as made explicit in that nation's actions, both internally and externally.

Liberty versus conformity with doctrine.

There is some adherance to those principles: Sadam was a bad man. And Capitalism, for all it's virtues, isn't flawless - and neither is interventionist politics.

Politics and principle need to come to a practical arrangement!

 

[amicus]

I know little of which I speak, but the little I do know means that I think the Declaration - with it's amendments - is a truly liberal declaration, grossly at variance with much current US policy - as made explicit in that nation's actions, both internally and externally.

Liberty versus conformity with doctrine.

There is some adherance to those principles: Sadam was a bad man. And Capitalism, for all it's virtues, isn't flawless - and neither is interventionist politics.

Politics and principle need to come to a practical arrangement!

~~~~~~

One must qualify that the Declaration was a 'liberal' document in classical liberal terms, not the modern vision of progressive liberal.

Classic Liberalism advocates minimum government and maximum individual freedom within the basic enumerated rights of the individual.

Liberty conforms to no doctrine save that of respect for the individual rights of each.

Without principle politics becomes what the left is today, whatever works within the range of the moment, the end justifies any means, and everything is subjective and relative; there are no absolutes.

It is difficult for most folk, especially on this forum, that the 'Income Tax' was judged 'unconstitutional' by the Supreme Court of the United States a little more than a hundred years ago.

Social Security inaugurated during the 1930's under Roosevelt and Medicare, under Johnson, I think, are also relatively new and failed experiments of quasi socialist thinking and policies.

The colonists went to war with England basically over tax issues and protectionist trade policies forced upon the colonies to benefit trade policies beneficial to mother England, but detrimental to the new world.

Those of us on the modern right, are in fact, the classical liberals of the past. Those advocating minimal government, providing defense of the nation and protection of individual rights and a court system to adjudicate differences. Within that context, free trade, the free market, or the buzz word of the left, Capitalism, is nothing more than the freedom to trade and invest as one sees fit.

Somehow, by accumulated ignorance and without respect for individual rights or property, the modern left screams that only government, with the police power to confiscate wealth from those who have it, can provide education and health care for the population.

If I wanted to live in a police state, I would move to Canada or England or France. I do not wish to do so.

Should you think freedom is such a cheap and plentiful thing, try fighting for it one fine day.

Amicus...

 

[oggbashan]

...Further, with the fall of Rome and the Roman Empire, the world plunged into a thousand year long dark ages, I doubt that will reoccur.

...

amicus...

No the world didn't plunge into a thousand year long dark ages. In some senses Western Europe did, perhaps for several hundred years, but not a thousand.

Roman civilisation continued in the Eastern Empire. Civilisation continued in China, India and Japan and all three were unaffected by the fall of the Roman Empire.

It depends on your definition of "dark ages". We now know much more about the period between the fall of Rome and the Renaissance than was known even twenty years ago. Even in Western Europe there were places where learning and civilisation continued throughout the so-called Dark Ages. In England King Alfred of Wessex reinstated learning but he had resources within England, from Ireland and even from Rome that were able to help.

Other cultures continued unaffected. The aborigines of Australia had a stable civilisation. Parts of SE Asia had very complex societies building impressive monuments.

The Islamic scholars continued to develop the sciences far beyond that Rome had achieved.

The Renaissance re-discovered that which many people already knew...

Og