Beating a dead stem cell...

[shadowsource]

It's become evident that Bush has banned federal money for exploitation of any of the additonal 100,000 unnecessary embroyos in storage. He has apparently lied about the number of pre-existing cells available for research, and some experts ay there are LESS THAN 10! Friday's collapse in stock prices for the stem cell research companies tells the story from a financial point of view. The free market has spoken, folks.

Foolish me. I thought he'd be more sensible. To please the right-wing Christians, he's sold out hundreds of people we know, including many of us, here, on this board. I never cared for their acting all that much, but when I see Christopher Reeve saying he's certain he could walk again in 10 years if this research were to go forward now, or Michael J. Fox shaking as he pleads for the research to continue, I see a couple of nice, doomed people. How many more are there?

These, after all, are embroyos that are destined to be discarded. All we get are garbled sound bites that sound like a little boy delivering his first speech in 7th Grade, ande knowing he'll get extra credit if he finishes because the teacher thinks he's a dummy. Sickening indeed.

 

[lavender]

 

[mrbenh]

my bumper sticker reads:

GWBush: Born With a Silver Spoon up His Nose!

 

[tmuyo]

dumbya bush

ok, i didn't like his dad, but i'd prefer sr. over jr. anyday.

i was one of the few people rooting for 4 more years of clinton. and before i get bashed into the wall by someone who had major issues with his family ethics, i'm not referring to those, but everyone (who isn't a right winged republican) would agree he did a lot for the country.

i personally think he was one of our best presidents as far as his achievements. and if bush had just gotten rid of the deficit like clinton planned, we'd all be better off. instead bush is going to BORROW MORE from our already massive debt.

i think this moron should be ousted. or better yet, fry him in his favorite electric people cooker.

 

[Cheyenne]

He has apparently lied about the number of pre-existing cells available for research, and some experts ay there are LESS THAN 10! Friday's collapse in stock prices for the stem cell research companies tells the story from a financial point of view. The free market has spoken, folks.

Foolish me.

Well, at least the "foolish me" was accurate.

Only less than 10 cells available, huh? (Did you mean LINES?)

Collapse in stock prices of stem cell research companies? LOL

You people do realize that the only thing affected is FEDERAL funding. This does not stop research. Companies are motivated by potential profits, and that motivation is out there to develop the cure for the diseases and physical problems you mentioned.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Biotech to develop stem cell lines
Geron to go beyond those Bush OK'd for federal funding
By JASON GERTZEN
of the Journal Sentinel staff
Last Updated: Aug. 11, 2001
Stem Cell Research


Geron Corp. will continue to develop embryonic stem cell lines beyond those President Bush approved for federal research funding, an executive of the biotechnology company said Friday.

Geron is a Menlo Park, Calif., biotechnology company that is funding the work of a University of Wisconsin-Madison researcher who first isolated embryonic stem cells in 1998. Some scientists believe the cells have the potential to cure Parkinson's disease and diabetes, as well as treating spinal cord injuries and heart disease.

Investors have been excited by the commercial potential, driving up the stock prices Thursday of Geron and a handful of other firms active in the stem cell arena.

After climbing 15% in the hours before the president's announcement, Geron's stock fell Friday.

"These companies are so far off from any kind of commercial product," said Aaron Geist, a vice president of equity research in Milwaukee at Robert W. Baird & Co. ."The volatility we are seeing is related to investors looking to reap a quick turn from the interest level surrounding stem cell research."

Companies such as Geron really will not be affected directly by Bush's decision because they are operating with cash from investors rather than federal grants, said Geist, who specializes in the life sciences industry.

Thomas B. Okarma, president and chief executive officer of Geron, said the stem cells developed in Wisconsin now are the "gold standard" of this research field. Geron and the UW researchers have the most extensive experience in working with the cells over the past few years, Okarma said during a conference call Friday.

The information these researchers can provide will "kick start" projects that now can be supported by federal grants following this week's decision by Bush, Okarma said.

Although Geron does not intend to seek any grants, the Bush decision is important because it allows stem cell companies to work with academic researchers who rely on government dollars, Okarma said.

These collaborations will increase the possibility of success and shorten the time needed to develop therapies or other medical uses related to stem cells, Okarma said.

It eventually will be critical to have a broader supply of stem cell lines when research advances enough to start developing treatments for specific diseases, said David Greenwood, a senior vice president and chief financial officer of Geron.

Greenwood would not specify how many more cell lines Geron would help develop but said the private sector would try to address concerns that using only existing cell lines would hinder scientific advances.

"Additional lines will be derived by companies," Greenwood said.

Bush said Thursday that federal grants could be used for research on some 60 lines of stem cells already in existence.

Greenwood said that, in some ways, it matters little for now whether the decision limits federal funding for a handful of cell lines or the 60 that the president cited.

Existing stem cell lines have an "infinite capacity" to divide, creating more cells available for research, Greenwood said.

"With our five lines, we could supply a lot of the academic community," Greenwood said.

The availability of federal funding will not end Geron's support of research by University of Wisconsin-Madison scientists, Greenwood said. The company probably will increase its stem cell research activity, he said.

"We are full steam ahead with Wisconsin," Greenwood said. "We have been, for five or six years. That won't change."

Greenwood would not say specifically how much Geron has contributed to the Madison lab or the two others it is backing.

"Funding for each of these labs is in the millions of dollars each," Greenwood said.



Appeared in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel on Aug. 11, 2001

 

[shadowsource]

Sure, everything's great!

Cheyenne:

Only less than 10 cells available, huh? (Did you mean LINES

Yes, I did. Sorry.
I don't know if you understand this, but no one getting federal money will be able to do any research on any further lines created. This does mean that great numbers of savvy researchers will be stuck using lines that are of dubious origin or are likely to tap out in quality. It's like consigning publicly funded researchers to use only the equipment already installed in your local high school, and none of that gear is ever to be upgraded or replaced.

Yes, Gerons' stock fell markedly on Friday, as did the other companies, whose shares rose on reports that Bush would allow the 100,000 doomed embroyos to be exploited. My pal who owns stock in Geron was very depressed yesterday, and he bought way before Thursday.

Geron understandably argues that this is not such bad news for it. But it's very bad news for us. Bush's defeat in 2004 will be a matter of hope or death for many, many epople.

 

[MinkSoul]

Sounds ta me like....

it's a Good time to buy Geron Corp stock...

 

[Cheyenne]

Re: Sure, everything's great!

This does mean that great numbers of savvy researchers will be stuck using lines that are of dubious origin or are likely to tap out in quality. It's like consigning publicly funded researchers to use only the equipment already installed in your local high school, and none of that gear is ever to be upgraded or replaced.

Do you have a source for your claims about dubious origin or quality problems? Or is this personal conjecture?

From the article above: "Greenwood said that, in some ways, it matters little for now whether the decision limits federal funding for a handful of cell lines or the 60 that the president cited.

Existing stem cell lines have an "infinite capacity" to divide, creating more cells available for research, Greenwood said."

 

[tmuyo]

bush

better be our hope and his death.

 

[tmuyo]

yes, but the cell...

may corrode and degrade, it always divides, constantly locked in mitosis, however it does degrade, other wise we humans would be immortal.

 

[Cheyenne]

i think this moron should be shot. or better yet, fry him in his favorite electric people cooker.

Bush better be our hope and his death.

Anyone tell you lately that your thoughts aren't coherent? Want to try to translate into English for the rest of us?

 

[shadowsource]

the cells DO degrade!

As tmuyo points out, our cells necessarily do degrade, or we would be immortal, barring accidents, disease, and starvation. Gearhart at John Hopkins and many, many other experts say that these are in no way sufficient numbers of cell lines. Many of the lines whose existence is cited by the NIH are unknown to people who have been in this business for a long time; we shall see if they even exist. And the lines that do exist will unquestionably tap out. The federal money cannot be used in any way on any new lines. There is a general opinion that the stem lines available are not sufficient to explore solutions to the health problems of all the ethnic communities in America (hurray, I'm a white, male, Euro-American - I'll bet they look for MY cures!).

Of course, none of this is necessary, as there are unquestionably tens of thousands of embroyos to be discarded. What a fabulous development! What a thinker! And I would have sympathized if he'd opposed creating embroyos just to tear 'em up. But to throw this treasure horde away? Madness....

 

[miles]

Cheyenne

It's very difficult trying to debate anything when one side presents facts and the opposing viewpoint is nothing but hysterical rhetoric.

Scary, isn't it?

 

[shadowsource]

So Miles -

I'm actually surprised that you find this sensible.

 

[Cheyenne]

But they are talking about STEM cell lines, not your basic body cells that age and degenerate. STEM cell lines are of the base cells, the new cells being created from division exactly like the old cells. No degeneration.

I'm not a scientist by any stretch of the imaginiation. What am I missing? What is incorrect about the quote from the article?

Again:

From the article above: "Greenwood said that, in some ways, it matters little for now whether the decision limits federal funding for a handful of cell lines or the 60 that the president cited.

Existing stem cell lines have an "infinite capacity" to divide, creating more cells available for research, Greenwood said."

 

[Todd]

Might be a shame that they have to go with the more difficult root and figure a better way to get the stem cells out of fat cells.

There has never been an arguement that fat cells stem cells are not usable, the only arguement is that the scientist/doctors have to put a little extra effort into it. Boohoo, poor Docs. Last time I checked there was an abundance of fat beromved ever year. just a bit of extra effort.

 

[Cheyenne]

Re: Cheyenne

It's very difficult trying to debate anything when one side presents facts and the opposing viewpoint is nothing but hysterical rhetoric.

Scary, isn't it?

More like "normal" for this place. But still frustrating.

 

[shadowsource]

What they say....

I'm not a scientist by any stretch of the imaginiation. What am I missing? What is incorrect about the quote from the article?

Existing stem cell lines have an "infinite capacity" to divide, creating more cells available for research, Greenwood said."

They say that this is NOT true, that these cell lines do NOT divide forever, and that these lines will inevitably tap out. Greenwood's statement, as quoted by you, contradicts everything I have read on this subject. I read a lot.

Why the hell can't we just use the embroyos they're throwing out?????

 

[miles]

When there are no facts to support a viewpoint some very interesting things happen.

 

[Tabby432]

Re: dumbya bush

i was one of the few people rooting for 4 more years of clinton.

Why? What did you think would happen?

 

[shadowsource]

What's wrong, Miles?

Miles: When there are no facts to support a viewpoint some very interesting things happen.

Sure the fact is that no one knows whether Bush's claim of 60 good and acccessible cell lines is accurate or not.

But Miles, don't you have some actual thoughts on this one, apart from merely asserting that the critics do not? Do you truly believe that it's wise to ban federal money for those working with fresh stem cell lines made from doomed embroyos? I'm genuinely interested in your opinion, as I figured this issue would transcend the normal left-right divide (hell, even WriterDom favors the research).

 

[Tabby432]

Might be a shame that they have to go with the more difficult root and figure a better way to get the stem cells out of fat cells.

There has never been an arguement that fat cells stem cells are not usable, the only arguement is that the scientist/doctors have to put a little extra effort into it. Boohoo, poor Docs. Last time I checked there was an abundance of fat beromved ever year. just a bit of extra effort.

Why make a complicated/difficult process even harder? Boohoo, poor Docs? That's asinine.

 

[shadowsource]

Yes, Todd -

Boohoo, poor Docs. Last time I checked there was an abundance of fat beromved ever year. just a bit of extra effort.

Suppose the fat cells don't pan out and the stem cells do, and we've lost three years - or eight years, should W win reelection - and thousands of people have died unnecessarily? Silly ass doctors!

 

[miles]

shadowsource

This is only an issue because the government is involved. Doesn't that sound familiar?

By subsidizing the research the government has created a problem out of thin air. It's very similar to the uproar of federal funding of abortion. Taxpayers have a right to be upset when the government spends their money on issues they are opposed to on moral or religious grounds. I'm not particularly upset with Bush's decision either way as much as I am about our tax money funding medical research. Regardless of the type of funding, health issues like AIDS, stem-cell research, or abortion, become politicized when they are funded by the feds. When Liberals take office, they want to provide more money to make abortion more available to low-income women. Then the Conservatives take office and remove the funding because they are "pro-life".

I don't know how much money the government funded for this research, but it won't delay any significant discoveries one bit. Private funding will replace or maybe exceed whatever the government gave them.

The right to life crowd is hysterical about destroying embryos as though they were living, breathing, human beings. I haven't heard a word of protest from the scientists. The work will continue, and one day an anti-abortion fanatic will be the beneficiary of the research.

 

[Cheyenne]

Sure the fact is that no one knows whether Bush's claim of 60 good and acccessible cell lines is accurate or not.

*sigh* I keep asking you to list ANY source from your reading, but you don't. Here's another one of mine:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/nat/aug01/tommy11081001.asp

Thompson reassures skeptical scientists

By MARILYNN MARCHIONE
of the Journal Sentinel staff
Last Updated: Aug. 10, 2001


U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy G. Thompson reassured skeptical scientists Friday that enough viable embryonic stem cells exist to enable them to do sufficient research to explore the cells' potential for curing diseases.

Also Friday, University of Wisconsin-Madison officials said they'd been assured that UW's five stem cell lines would qualify for federal funding under President Bush's proposal.

"We have been told that ours will work, but not officially," said Andrew Cohn, a spokesman for a UW-affiliated research foundation.

James Thomson, the UW scientist who pioneered the stem cell research, said Thompson called him Friday and asked him to support Bush's decision to allow funding only on existing stem cells already derived from embryos and not for work that would involve destroying more embryos.

Thomson said he wished Bush had allowed more work to be funded, but added, "This gets it going, and that's what has to be emphasized."

At a news conference Friday at the National Institutes of Health, Thompson and others talked about the 60 stem cell lines they claim exist now, and said Bush's decision would allow plenty of research to be done.

"Make no mistake, this is a bold step forward," Thompson said.

Embryonic stem cells are master cells that can form virtually any tissue or organ in the body. A cell line is a collection of genetically identical cells that are able to live and perpetually divide in a lab dish. Each cell line must have been established from a different embryo.

All day, prominent scientists from Harvard University on the East Coast to Stanford University on the West Coast disputed Bush and Thompson's assertion that so many true cell lines exist now.

Paul Berg, a Stanford University Nobel laureate, said he was "mystified" when Bush said there were more than 60.

"The most anybody I've talked to is aware of is probably 10 or less," he said.

"I thought there were only about a dozen out there," said Catherine Verfaillie, who heads a stem cell research center at the University of Minnesota.

."The president evidently is privy to information unknown to me and other members of the scientific community," said Douglas Melton, a stem cell researcher at Harvard.

Thompson said that's exactly the case. He said no one had ever done a formal investigation and count of them, nationally and internationally, until he requested it as part of the research Bush asked him to do in making his decision on the funding issue.

"We were surprised by the number 60," Thompson said.

He described the cell lines as genetically diverse, robust and viable, and stressed that each came from a different embryo.

"A lot of the research was being done behind closed doors and being protected for proprietary reasons," Thompson said.

5 other countries
Lana Skirboll, director of science policy at NIH, said the cell lines are in five countries besides the United States - Sweden, Israel, India, Australia and Singapore. She said NIH has an inventory, but would not release it because of the need to protect the commercial interests of the businesses involved that willingly shared confidential information with federal officials.

But she identified these three and said they collectively have 17 stem cell lines:

WiCell, a subsidiary of the Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation, which manages the commercial aspect of work done by UW scientists. UW officials say WiCell has five cell lines.
BresaGen, an Australian firm that is doing embryonic stem cell research in Athens, Ga.
ES Cell International Pte Ltd., or ESI, which was formed by investment groups in Singapore and Australia and has licensing rights to stem cell lines developed at research centers in those two countries and Israel. It has a joint venture with a Cleveland firm, Quark Biotech Inc., that has research centers in Israel and Chicago.
UW's Thomson said it is possible that many others have made stem cell lines since he established the first one in 1998.

"While it's difficult, there are competent people out there," he said. "My guess is that most of them are academics," that is, at universities as opposed to being employed by the private companies, he said.

Thomson also said he hoped they were true cell lines that are genetically distinct from any others that have been made.

"That can be proved quite easily," he added.

Thompson said NIH was starting a registry of embryonic stem cell lines to have records on which of them had been created by the Aug. 9 deadline Bush set for qualifying for federal funding.

"We don't expect any grants to be made until next calendar year at the earliest," Thompson said.

"The best and the brightest will now be coming forward to do this research," Skirboll said.

Thompson said that from the start, it has bothered him that scientists made conflicting claims about the superiority or utility of embryonic, placental and adult stem cells and that there was no science to settle the dispute.

"Now we're going to be able to make that comparison," he said.


The Associated Press contributed to this report.




Appeared in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel on Aug. 11, 2001