BDSMers=Romantics?

[FluteMaster]

LOL, I wasn't cheeky enough to say it, but my thoughts resembled your own.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/228/508400304_935c3596fd_t.jpg Catalina

<Tips hat>

Glad to be of assistance Ma'am

 

[Ice2000]

Great you explained yourself and your definition of a romantic, because in so doing, you proved as I have said before that you do not know me (remember your continual insistence I am a romantic and far too easily ruled by my emotions?)...your description of how a romantic behaves is so not me, and so much the realist description you gave, and which has actually been a choice I have made in RL without needing time to think. Also pertains to the idea of telling your lover what they want to hear....that is certainly not what I do, as painful or confronting as it might be for the one to whom I am speaking. LOL, so see, you just need to hang here a lot longer to get to know who I am instead of weaving fantasies in your head and insisting they are me.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/223/510711670_5320c9d9d1_t.jpg Catalina

I'll give you the benifit of the doubt on this one Catalina. several of your posts seemed off the deep end to me, but perhaps you had other reasons.

 

[wenchhh]

Ice, as you know, I just love to spar with you, verbally or otherwise, but...
A) I missed out because I as actually away today, doing regular life things. That's ok, it seems that Cat and Flute Master took care of you just fine.
B) you seem to have gone off on a tangent here, as I never argued with your view of a romantic and a realist, AND... where did this "telling a lover what they want to hear" thing come in???
I pride myself in being pretty competant at following a conversation, but ya lost me here, and yeah, I hafta agree with the others, it DID seem like a somewhat emotional statement. Perhaps the topic touched on a nerve???
For the record, I DO agree that D/s relationships require a higher level of trust than normal relationships, atleast from what I have experienced in my short, oh so infrequent interactions with my Sir. Yes, of course that can lead to romance. How can you NOT begin to love someone with whom you entrust your body, your pride, your heart and your mind? How can you not, as a dom, love someone who gives you all of this, and looks at you trustingly, who would do anything and everything, herself aside, to please you? I don't mean YOU specifically, but ... just saying, it seems that it is human nature to love, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

So, you're saying that if there is romance involved, then you're likely to lie to your luv, instead of being bluntly honest, because you love her? THAT is the biggest crock I've ever heard. I'm sorry, dear man, that life has handed you those cards. That experiences in your life have led you to that skewed viewpoint. Everyone should feel loved, even argumentative, cocky, (albeit sexy) old Doms like yourself.

BTW, I'm a nurse. I would have gone in the house, grabbed a vial of Morphine, and gently, LOVINGLY, calmly put that dog to sleep. So, I'm a romantic. Sue me.

Wench, we really have to work on your timing. when I say something funny you never laugh. Hell I'm dead serious here. Let me tell you the difference between a romantic and a realist.

If a person accidentally runs over there dog. Its obvious the dog is mortally wounded

If the person is a romantic they jump out of the car, run over to the dog, start to cry, attempt mouth to mouth resuscitation, the dog is crying in pain, the romantic grabs up the dog, (dog cries some more)rushes to the vet with tears flowing, causing two auto accidents on the way while in a state of panic. Sobbing they tell the vet to do anything(dog cries some more), they love the dog. The vet keeps the poor animal alive for 3 more day(as the poor dog suffers), sends the owner a bill for $2000, and then the dog dies. Vet says he can dispose of the body for another $200.

If the person is a realist they walk in the house, get the gun and take care of business.

My point being if you let your feeling cloud reality, you are not helping yourself or anyone else. Telling a lover what they want to hear because of romance verses what you know in your heart is real is crime. And when romance takes over that crap happens a lot.

 

[BiBunny]

I think this is hugely dependent on how you define romantic.

Chocolates and flowers and remembering every birthday and anniversary? No, I don't think people who do BDSM are by nature any more of that than anyone else.

But there is a sacrifice and thoughtfulness in the love between partners in our community--whether it be Eros ("romantic" love) or platonic (or friendship/"philia"), or another aspect--in the emotions that frequently come into play, a constant awareness of your partner's needs, that I think is inherently romantic.

It doesn't matter if a pair of people never kiss or have sex or are even compatible in sexual orientation. There is romance in a bottom saying, "Yes, I hate this, and yes, I will do it for you anyway. I will hurt for you, and trust you not to harm me."

I don't see romance as being defined by what dates I can remember and gifts I can buy. I see it in selflessness, in the thought put into serving another's desires. A man who sends his wife flowers and doesn't do it for any reason other than because it pleases her is being romantic.

A painfully shy girl who kneels naked at her owner's feet in a public play space, for whom the world melts away when her mistress pets her head and smiles, is being romantic. Her mistress, who strokes her cheek and tells her she's beautiful, that she enjoys the opportunity to show the world how beautiful this girl she owns is, is being romantic.

My BDSM--and I stress that it is not the same as someone else's--is definitely romantic.

*Sniff* Goddammit, I must really be a romantic deep down inside somewhere because your post brought tears to my eyes.

I'll chalk it up to a maudlin moment, but I still think you hit the nail on the head.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'll give you the benifit of the doubt on this one Catalina. several of your posts seemed off the deep end to me, but perhaps you had other reasons.

No, there were no other reasons. As I said at the time, it was your perception and assumption I was emotional and going off the deep end when in reality I was just respending to your posts in a polite manner, and more specifically standing up for my rights as a human to say when I feel someone is trying to offend me by addressing me in a manner I have already told them repeatedly I do not welcome or appreciate. Sexual harrassment cases are based and fought on similar situations daily in RL situations. As I also said, your judgement of 'over emotional' can only be based on what you see as emotion....if you have problems expressing or admitting to having emotions/feelings, or seeing them in a positive sense, of course you are going to feel anyone who doesn't have problems expressing theirs is being over emotional....doesn't make it so though.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/222/508336074_df3eed5e30_t.jpg Catalina

 

[CutieMouse]

I'm just gonna nod my head in Dex's direction, with a smile.

Ice, I'm afraid you are confusing emotion with Romance.

Wanna know the most romantic thing I did receintly? I ignored someone's birthday, as he chooses not to celebrate them. I *hate* ignoring his birthday. It drives me up the wall, because it means I don't get to send a bunch of home made cookies, or pick out a funny card, or ploan an evening at the opera- which is how *I* would rather celebrate his birthday. But it isn't about me, so I ignore the date (as far as he's concerned), and at 5 minutes to midnight, get a very sincere thank you for giving him the best birthday gift possible.

I'd also never consider "telling a Lover what they want to hear" an act of Romance. Lying? Yes. Romantic? No. Romantic Love means always being brutally and compassionately honest with your partner, because you Love each other enough to do so.

 

[Ice2000]

No, there were no other reasons. As I said at the time, it was your perception and assumption I was emotional and going off the deep end when in reality I was just respending to your posts in a polite manner, and more specifically standing up for my rights as a human to say when I feel someone is trying to offend me by addressing me in a manner I have already told them repeatedly I do not welcome or appreciate. Sexual harrassment cases are based and fought on similar situations daily in RL situations. As I also said, your judgement of 'over emotional' can only be based on what you see as emotion....if you have problems expressing or admitting to having emotions/feelings, or seeing them in a positive sense, of course you are going to feel anyone who doesn't have problems expressing theirs is being over emotional....doesn't make it so though.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/222/508336074_df3eed5e30_t.jpg Catalina

Catalina, I totally agree with you with regard to me refering to you in a way you did not appreciate. I think I have beat that point to death.


Are you saying all your responses were related to that issue?

 

[Ice2000]

Ice, I'm afraid you are confusing emotion with Romance.

Too a point your correct Cutie. but they are tied together.

Ice, as you know, I just love to spar with you, verbally or otherwise, but...

And Wench I'll argue with you later.. gotta run.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina, I totally agree with you with regard to me refering to you in a way you did not appreciate. I think I have beat that point to death.


Are you saying all your responses were related to that issue?

Sheesh man, no...as I have always done, I respond to the topic, posts, thoughts which are taking place with the occasional off topic moment which may or may not be closely related to the topic.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/133/358217376_43ab2fa9aa_t.jpg Catalina

 

[Ice2000]

Sheesh man, no...as I have always done, I respond to the topic, posts, thoughts which are taking place with the occasional off topic moment which may or may not be closely related to the topic.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/133/358217376_43ab2fa9aa_t.jpg Catalina

Good,Then let me say the incident had nothing to do with why I said I believed you were a romantic.

The specific subject was "how can I make her respect me as a dom"

A romantic person would give a positive answer, and blow a bunch of smoke up the guys butt. When there is hard evidence that suggests it won't happen. That is and was my point.

Yes, some times the dog lives, but the cards are stacked heavily against him.

When I laid the cards on he table, rather than accept reality, I was painted as the bad guy. (shoot the messenger) That is the action of someone letting what they want to happen over rule there reasoning capability.

 

[BiBunny]

Good,Then let me say the incident had nothing to do with why I said I believed you were a romantic.

The specific subject was "how can I make her respect me as a dom"

A romantic person would give a positive answer, and blow a bunch of smoke up the guys butt. When there is hard evidence that suggests it won't happen. That is and was my point.

Yes, some times the dog lives, but the cards are stacked heavily against him.

When I laid the cards on he table, rather than accept reality, I was painted as the bad guy. (shoot the messenger) That is the action of someone letting what they want to happen over rule there reasoning capability.

Well, the guy asked for advice, and "It's not likely to happen" isn't advice. Proactive doesn't equal romantic any more than pessimistic equals realistic.

 

[Ice2000]

Ice, as you know, I just love to spar with you, verbally or otherwise, but...
A) I missed out because I as actually away today, doing regular life things. That's ok, it seems that Cat and Flute Master took care of you just fine.
B) you seem to have gone off on a tangent here, as I never argued with your view of a romantic and a realist, AND... where did this "telling a lover what they want to hear" thing come in???
I pride myself in being pretty competant at following a conversation, but ya lost me here, and yeah, I hafta agree with the others, it DID seem like a somewhat emotional statement. Perhaps the topic touched on a nerve???
For the record, I DO agree that D/s relationships require a higher level of trust than normal relationships, atleast from what I have experienced in my short, oh so infrequent interactions with my Sir. Yes, of course that can lead to romance. How can you NOT begin to love someone with whom you entrust your body, your pride, your heart and your mind? How can you not, as a dom, love someone who gives you all of this, and looks at you trustingly, who would do anything and everything, herself aside, to please you? I don't mean YOU specifically, but ... just saying, it seems that it is human nature to love, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

So, you're saying that if there is romance involved, then you're likely to lie to your luv, instead of being bluntly honest, because you love her? THAT is the biggest crock I've ever heard. I'm sorry, dear man, that life has handed you those cards. That experiences in your life have led you to that skewed viewpoint. Everyone should feel loved, even argumentative, cocky, (albeit sexy) old Doms like yourself.

BTW, I'm a nurse. I would have gone in the house, grabbed a vial of Morphine, and gently, LOVINGLY, calmly put that dog to sleep. So, I'm a romantic. Sue me.

Now Wench. First let me say that my post was not directed at you and what you believe. what little we have talked I think your a pretty cool gal..

(is it ok for me to call you gal? super dom won't come looking for me or anything?) I just took the opportunity to express my views on how silly people can get over romance. I have never been hurt like that. I have just seen a ton of friends family and others get all stupid over romance, and screw there life up. I'm not talking about recognizing a lover on a special day or sending flowers. caring est. I'm talking about letting your imagination run away because you want it to happen.

Its like the lit support group. God bless them because they have good intentions. But I swear I could make a post saying ..

"my lover wants me to grow wings out of my ass and jerk off while I fly to the moon" and I will have 3 people telling me how to start before the sun sets.
------------------------------
Now that is funny.. I don't care who you are that' funny right there..

now you can laugh wench My favorite is Ron White, but a Larry imitation will do in a pinch

 

[wenchhh]

Ice, thanks for the clarification, and yes, that was a little humerous. Humorous... hmmm, dammit, now I've gotta go look them up. One is bone-ish and one is funny. sigh.

as for calling me gal, yes please, you may go ahead w/ that. I, in fact, LIKE terms of endearment, and herein lies the rub. If you call me anything other than Wenchhh, or Becky, which is my birth name, I WILL consider it a term of endearment. I can agree with the others on this one, it's not AS welcome coming from someone I don't know, but am getting to know you a little... we're all here with a common bond, and it's just fine with me, if you call me ... whatever you want that's not negative. Jeepers, do I sound like a whimpy little dishrag or what??!! yeah, that's right, RING me, baby.
um, that was the Ketle talking.

 

[neonflux]

A rose is not always just a rose is not a rose...

Some of it may be how you define romance, ya know....

CM, when I first read your post, I immediately started nodding my head in agreement, and then I read Dex's and nodded again. I have a mentor who describes kinky folk as "incurable romantics." She uses it, I believe in a much broader sense, going back to the original use of the term. From Wikipedia :

"Romanticism is an artistic, literary and intellectual movement that originated in 18th century Western Europe during the Industrial Revolution... It stressed strong emotion as a source of aesthetic experience, placing new emphasis on such emotions as trepidation, horror, and the awe experienced in confronting the sublimity of nature. It elevated folk art, nature and custom, as well as arguing for an epistemology based on nature, which included human activity conditioned by nature in the form of language, custom and usage. It was influenced by ideas of the Enlightenment and elevated medievalism and elements of art and narrative perceived to be from the medieval period. The name "romantic" itself comes from the term "romance" which is a prose or poetic heroic narrative originating in medieval literature and romantic literature."

Seeing it that way, I think that BDSM is at its core romantic, in the original sense of the word. The protocols of the Old Guard were certainly romantic in nature. The intensity of BDSM experience can often elevate sexual experience to the sublime and I would venture to say that, ultimately, it is those highs which most of us seek - at least I know that's true for me. The very ideas of "pushing one's limits" certainly harkins back to a personal quest and as a Top, the protective nature of holding space for one's partner is nothing if not chivalrous, even when being extremey sadistic...

I think that this is a great question, Bunny.

Neon

P.S., I never considered myself exceedingly romantic in the more common usage of the term, but having recently fallen in love harder than I ever imagined possible (took 50 years to do it, LOL), I am now a convert, sigh!!!

 

[nh23]

I think this is hugely dependent on how you define romantic.

Chocolates and flowers and remembering every birthday and anniversary? No, I don't think people who do BDSM are by nature any more of that than anyone else.

But there is a sacrifice and thoughtfulness in the love between partners in our community--whether it be Eros ("romantic" love) or platonic (or friendship/"philia"), or another aspect--in the emotions that frequently come into play, a constant awareness of your partner's needs, that I think is inherently romantic.

It doesn't matter if a pair of people never kiss or have sex or are even compatible in sexual orientation. There is romance in a bottom saying, "Yes, I hate this, and yes, I will do it for you anyway. I will hurt for you, and trust you not to harm me."

I don't see romance as being defined by what dates I can remember and gifts I can buy. I see it in selflessness, in the thought put into serving another's desires. A man who sends his wife flowers and doesn't do it for any reason other than because it pleases her is being romantic.

A painfully shy girl who kneels naked at her owner's feet in a public play space, for whom the world melts away when her mistress pets her head and smiles, is being romantic. Her mistress, who strokes her cheek and tells her she's beautiful, that she enjoys the opportunity to show the world how beautiful this girl she owns is, is being romantic.

My BDSM--and I stress that it is not the same as someone else's--is definitely romantic.

Very well said