BDSM is all about control. No, BDSM is all about trust and power transference. Eh?

[KillerMuffin]

Charm Brights disagreed with me on a different thread about what BDSM is all about.

If I had to boil BDSM down to one thing, I'd say trust. But two things is the minimum I could say would make up the skeleton. Control is not one of them.

I say trust and power transference.

She? says Control.

I put it to you, since you're the experts I go to.

Actually, BDSM is not all about control. BDSM is all about trust and transference of power.

Read the mainstream BDSM novels, for instance those on www.BDSMbooks.com, and then tell me that. (PS Not just my books)

Link to the thread this came from: http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86891

 

[patient1]

OK Killer, I'll play along. Somebody may be amused by our outsider's insights.


Obviously trust. I suppose power transfer is true of an encounter.

What blows me away is the intamacy of it all in a relationship context. Meeting each other's needs, finding limits & learning how far they can be stretched, using gags instead of safewords.

The sensations may be incredibly intense, but the communication is incredibly subtle.

 

[monster666]

Re: BDSM is all about control. No, BDSM is all about trust and power transference. Eh?

KM, one of these days I am going be around to see you make a mistake. I am going to see you be wrong. I am going to see you have to eat crow. But today isn't that day. At least not yet.

Charm Brights disagreed with me on a different thread about what BDSM is all about.

If I had to boil BDSM down to one thing, I'd say trust. But two things is the minimum I could say would make up the skeleton. Control is not one of them.

I say trust and power transference.

She? says Control.

I put it to you, since you're the experts I go to.



Read the mainstream BDSM novels, for instance those on www.BDSMbooks.com, and then tell me that. (PS Not just my books)

Link to the thread this came from: http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86891

 

[MissTaken]

KM,

You are too cool.

Yeppers.

It is about power exchange, the necessary element of which is trust.

Power is given and recieved.

It is never taken, stolen, hijacked or otherwise transferred without the mutual consent of both parties.

 

[cymbidia]

You need three phrases, not two.

Trust.
Communication.
Power transference.


With those, after those, comes control - and the rest of the blazingly wondrous benefits we derive from our intimate interactions with each other.

In the lifestyle, we are all control freaks, you know. That's true of every single one of us, sub, switch or dominant, and much more so than in any comparably-sized group of people scooped up from any shopping mall anywhere. We're control freaks, and the BDSM lifestyle, BDSM sexuality, is one of the ways we can enact that control in our daily lives.

 

[patient1]

It's nice to see I can spell at 3AM.

It's nice to see I didn't make a complete fool of myself.- Hey! I'm "entitled" to be a fool, see?

<-------------------------------------

 

[CarolineOh]

Re: You need three phrases, not two.

Trust.
Communication.
Power transference.


With those, after those, comes control - and the rest of the blazingly wondrous benefits we derive from our intimate interactions with each other.

cym, you formulated exactly the words I was grasping for. If I am free to walk out of my relationship, then control is a byproduct of trust.

 

[~Dream~]

With Artful's permission,

CYM ,CAROLINE,MISS T ,ANYBODY???
soomebody please help?/
What if ,as a new sub You truly wana give the trust .. but feel that you are not being heard (your feelings) when you communicate with your Master>?
How do i get beyond this obstacle???

 

[cymbidia]

dream, everything within and between D/s people begins and succeeds -or fails- with communication.

To your partner, you owe your honesty and openness. To your partner you must speak of your fears and needs and hopes and changes and desires and what you've begin to dream about and what is past and if you think you'll ever ever ever ever want that thing.

You are heard.

You listen to the same from your partner.

Your partner is heard.

You work together to make each individual dream come true and chanse away common fears and push past places that are scary.

Or you don't.
You talk and are not heard.
Your partner doesn't listen.
Your fears and needs are not attended to.

And then you have to decide whether you will stay or if you must go.

~~~~~~~~~~

It's the same for us kinked freaks as it is for anyone in any relationship, dream.

We are people first - always! - before we are BDSM partners. If the basic underlying human relationship doesn't exist between us and our partner, then there's nothing of substance on which we can build our D/s relationship.

Build your human relationship and work on incorporating the D/s slowly, slowly, into what lies between you. It's very difficult, otherwise, for your relationship to succeed.

It's what we've been telling you all along, since you arrived here, darlin'.

A D/s relationship is a relationship between humans, first, and then it's D/s.

If you're not being heard, ask for some time away from your "roles", time to simply talk about the relationship stuff, time to evolve and grow close as just plain people. It's necessary, dream. Please trust me on this.

Otherwise it's just make-believe.

If all you want is make-believe, then fine.

But if you want the lasting reality of a love relationship, a BDSM style love relationship (and, of course, you have to both want that for it to happen) then you have to forge a true relationship from what lies between you, a relationship that is aside from (though highlighted by) the BDSM aspect of what lies between you.

Please believe me on this.

 

[~Dream~]

With Artful's permission,

Cymbidia , i trust all that you have said to me for i know you have no reason
to lie, i highly respect you even more for what you just wrote and it makes perfect sense to me what i must nw do..thank you ..
I have had 4 relationships fail miserably (divorce) iI have experienced Rape, physical abuse (my 2nd ex beat the fuck outta me , my 3 just up and decided to leave me when I was 6mos pregnant with my last child (i have 4) and my curent just got out of prison for 5 y ..I have not been with a man for a very very long time and i Do want areal relationship and I AM interested in long-term the long-haul not fantasy-reality
what I dont want need and wont tolerate is any form of mental or verbal abuse,i dont desrve it and i wont respond well to it. i am trying my best here and I truly feel that is all that should be expected of me as I am very new to all of this.. trust must be earned ,, I refuse to blindly give it out..been there .. done that..
I would love to get to know each other better personally ,talk on the phone ,exchange letters ,etc as i feel i would be more willing to submit as I am made more comfortable..
However I AM NOT SURE WHERE HE STANDSO THIS..I feel better communication is definately neded ..my intentions are often highly misinterpreted. for the bad which is very hurtful to me..
I wanna be able to trust ,love and talk without fear of reproval as I am NOT a child but indeed every inch a woman ..thanks again Cymbidia you have been very helpful

 

[artful]

cymbidia

dream, everything within and between D/s people begins and succeeds -or fails- with communication.

To your partner, you owe your honesty and openness. To your partner you must speak of your fears and needs and hopes and changes and desires and what you've begin to dream about and what is past and if you think you'll ever ever ever ever want that thing.

You are heard.

You listen to the same from your partner.

Your partner is heard.

You work together to make each individual dream come true and chanse away common fears and push past places that are scary.

Or you don't.
You talk and are not heard.
Your partner doesn't listen.
Your fears and needs are not attended to.

And then you have to decide whether you will stay or if you must go.

~~~~~~~~~~

It's the same for us kinked freaks as it is for anyone in any relationship, dream.

We are people first - always! - before we are BDSM partners. If the basic underlying human relationship doesn't exist between us and our partner, then there's nothing of substance on which we can build our D/s relationship.

Build your human relationship and work on incorporating the D/s slowly, slowly, into what lies between you. It's very difficult, otherwise, for your relationship to succeed.

It's what we've been telling you all along, since you arrived here, darlin'.

A D/s relationship is a relationship between humans, first, and then it's D/s.

If you're not being heard, ask for some time away from your "roles", time to simply talk about the relationship stuff, time to evolve and grow close as just plain people. It's necessary, dream. Please trust me on this.

Otherwise it's just make-believe.

If all you want is make-believe, then fine.

But if you want the lasting reality of a love relationship, a BDSM style love relationship (and, of course, you have to both want that for it to happen) then you have to forge a true relationship from what lies between you, a relationship that is aside from (though highlighted by) the BDSM aspect of what lies between you.

Please believe me on this.

Well stated cym,
I will add the following for my OWN reasons, but I feel they are TRUTHS, and may be of help to others.

The Four Keys:
1)~Communication
2)~Trust
3)~Transference of Power
4)~Control



COMMUNICATION is the start of ALL relationships. It is in my opinion, the most important tool ANY of us have to work with. Some people have the ability to COMMUNICATE well, others do not.



Some people well developed in the art of communication, can effectively blind us to truths. Allowing them to deceive, even the most informed. Here is where the real danger lies !



By either choosing to TRUST that communication or NOT! Often a person will(believe, trust, etc.) choose to accept that communication based ONLY on what they want to believe.



Others, (because of past history) refuse to believe in the communication out of habit, (been burned ONE too many times). After communication, trust may, or may not be established.



Blind trusting should never be undertaken in any adult circumstance,(except when based on past performances), but as TIME and circumstances allow for issues to be developed, communicated, and resolved one way or another, a certain trust or mistrust will follow.



Rushing this phase, is almost always,lethal to any relationship. I mean hey,...anybody wanna give me their credit card?



The TRANSFERENCE of power comes next,(if the relationship should continue). This should not be done in a lump sum gift, as so often is expected, and sadly, is SO often done.



It should be done gradually, as trust is earned in that particular area of our lives. Whether or not it involves our physical well being, financials, personals, emotions, etc.



CONTROL can, and should be a shared experience between the parties involved, but if the man is not good at handling the checkbook, and the woman is, guess who should have that control!



Now as to the BDSM part of it, I feel cymbidia has made an excellent statement regarding the confusion many of us have had, and/or, are presently involved with in our lives, and I agree with her view 100%.



FIRST comes the human relationship, SECONDLY comes the BDSM relationship!(imho)


P.S.~I apologise for the lengthy post,...but as most of you are aware,...I AM kinda mouthy,...and most certainly verbose!

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: You need three phrases, not two.

Trust.
Communication.
Power transference.


With those, after those, comes control - and the rest of the blazingly wondrous benefits we derive from our intimate interactions with each other.

In the lifestyle, we are all control freaks, you know. That's true of every single one of us, sub, switch or dominant, and much more so than in any comparably-sized group of people scooped up from any shopping mall anywhere. We're control freaks, and the BDSM lifestyle, BDSM sexuality, is one of the ways we can enact that control in our daily lives.

Cym, I find your answers very interesting, because on another list I subscribe to there quite a few dominants who seem to believe BDSM is about power and/or control. I will not elaborate on what they say, but let us just say, it borders on stupidity.

My answer was going to be a multiple one. I resist the urge to boil anything down to one word. Most things that are important, need more (usually).

My three are as follows:

Communication
Honesty
Trust.
In the presence of the above three, the power exchange (transference) can occur. I believe that communcation, honesty and trust must co-exist before a true power exchange can occur.

Ebony <just my opinion>

 

[KillerMuffin]

Perhaps we should test a different track.

What is control?

 

[cymbidia]

To me, in my adult BDSM relationships, control is a thing of almost-illusion.

I crave being controlled. I crave the release of relaxing into my submission knowing my dominant will excercise his control of me and himself in a way that will provide pleasure and security for us both.

Control is his being responsible for my safety, for my headspace, for my pleasure.

I give him the control as a blank check.
He inscribes onto that blank check experiences and emotions for us both, but always within the parameters of the check. He cannot write outside the check, on the tabletop, and have it be meaningful for us both.

He uses the control in ways that i anticipate and in ways i cannot begin to guess, but he always uses it to better us both and to propel us forward as we walk through this part of our lives at a shared pace.

Control is illusory, in some respects.
I have only to say "RED" and the sexual play stops.
I have only to say, "i don't want this anymore" and the relationship is over.

He has the same rights.

But within our consensual exchange of power, inside our agreed-to limits, his control over me is almost completely absolute. By that i mean that within our limits he gets to choose (if he chooses to control me to these levels), for example, when and if i have orgasms, how i dress, where i go during my free hours, what time i go to bed, whether i post here, what i post, what i eat, if i get to masturbate, when we will spend time together next, on and on and on.

I grant the control because i crave the sheer joy of the freedom i find within such an arrangement.

He accepts the control for what i must assume are similar reasons.

I know this is kinda vague, mystical, and rambling; i'm sorry.
I don't have a better explanation for "What is control?"

 

[cyn1959]

control

cym,

i am getting to be your biggest fan, the way you articulate exactly how myself and I'm sure others feel.

You hit the nail on the head with this post. again.

cynthia

 

[SpectreT]

I got two words for ya.....

Communication
Respect

These are the cornerstones. Without them there's no way to build the trust, to exchange the power; no way to build a relationship.

Respect is a two-way street; it's not just what a sub feels for a Dom, it's what a Dom feels for a sub. The expression of the respect is different, of course, but the respect is there none the less.

And if you need to hear why communication is vital to a relationship..........

In a good relationship anyway.....

 

[Ebonyfire]

Control

In my case, control is a tool that I use to exercise power over my submissive(s) within the context of a particular D/s relationship. The amount of control depends (again) on the nature of the relationship between us.

For example, I would use the least amount of control in an online relationship, a little more in a play partner relationship, and the most control in a 24/7 Mistress/slave relationship.

This is an oversimplication, but for posting purposes it gives you an idea of what I mean.

Ebony

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Major Wicked Grin

Pity i missed this when still new.

Nods on the power transferrence and trust, but i disagree control doesn't play a key part here.

Do you give a dangerous tool to someone incapable of handling it?

No.

Why?

They haven't exhibited the control required to handle the tool.

How do you find out if they have the control?

Communicating with them.

What do you do next?

Trust them.

The power exchange begins then.

Edited for spelling. Consider another spellchecker bitchslapped into the fireplace.

So much for making it on Santa's Nice list this month.

 

[Desdemona]

Good bump.

Pity i missed this when still new.

Nods on the power transferrence and trust, but i disagree control doesn't play a key part here.

Do you give a dangerous tool to someone incapable of handling it?

No.

Why?

The haven't exhibited the control required to handle the tool.

How do you find out if they have the control?

Communicating with them.

What do you do next?

Trust them.

The power exchange begins then.

AA, I like the way you've laid this out. The one thing I would add from my perspective is that this process takes time. Too often, submissives jump into the deep end of the pool with respect to trust. I think it's better to wade in the shallow end as you learn to trust someone.

Trust a little. See what the dominant does with the trust. If all goes well, trust a little more. I say this because some people talk a real good game, but when it comes time to demonstrate what has been discussed, they aren't up to the task.

A trusting relationship that forms the basis for power exchange takes time to develop.

I hope that made sense. I'm sleepy.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: Good bump.

I hope that made sense. I'm sleepy.

Made perfect sense Des.

 

[FungiUg]

I sometimes wonder why we feel the urge to nail down BDSM to "specifics". What is BDSM? What is it about? Etc.

For me, it's an umbrella term that collects together a whole bunch of related "things". Does it matter if it's really about control, or trust, or power?

I always feel that the emphasis that gets placed on these things is due to personal criteria. For me the thrill is control, so of COURSE it's about control for me. For others, the thrill might be the ability to trust someone completely and intensely. So it's really a personal definition.

I don't believe I can nail it down and say "this is what it is". I can say what it is for me, but... I already know that it won't be that for other people.

I don't believe there is any value in tightly defining what BDSM is. Accept it as a general category, and deal with the resulting grey areas. If we nailed it down into black and white, I'd probably get bored with it and go find something funner to play with.

 

[Anopheles]

The inherent appeal of BDSM relationships is the fluidity of trust that flows between the people involved. The sub has just as much control over the dom as vice versa is a true, caring D/s relationship. The Dom knows when the sub craves pain, and delivers it only when the sub wants it. A Dom will not deliver punishment when he/she doesn't desire it, nor will a sub take it when they can't handle it.

For me, D/s creates symbiosis. Whether you are a top or a bottom, in true BDSM, you see your *other* half displayed before you in glaring shades of beautiful, undeniable black and white.

 

[MT_Pitcher]

The inherent appeal of BDSM relationships is the fluidity of trust that flows between the people involved. The sub has just as much control over the dom as vice versa is a true, caring D/s relationship. The Dom knows when the sub craves pain, and delivers it only when the sub wants it. A Dom will not deliver punishment when he/she doesn't desire it, nor will a sub take it when they can't handle it.

For me, D/s creates symbiosis. Whether you are a top or a bottom, in true BDSM, you see your *other* half displayed before you in glaring shades of beautiful, undeniable black and white.

Now that I disagree with..
There is no black and white.
A full range of colors is needed in a successful D/s.
So much so, that I would add one word to the list of
Communication
Trust
Power Tranference
Control
And ... Empathy...
Especially from the Dom side, the only side I know.
After the relationship is established, I think that is what makes it work well. Feeling the needs and wants, when to push further, and when to offer support.
It may be the Dom's greatest responsibility........

 

[h_i_s]

For me, importance is ranked in no particular order, and ALL must exist. In my opinion, it can not be summed up successfully with just one component. One balances the other, if any are missing the whole thing is thrown out of balance and failure is very likely to occur.

1. trust
2. respect
3. honor
4. communication
5. compatability

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Anopheles
The inherent appeal of BDSM relationships is the fluidity of trust that flows between the people involved. The sub has just as much control over the dom as vice versa is a true, caring D/s relationship. The Dom knows when the sub craves pain, and delivers it only when the sub wants it. A Dom will not deliver punishment when he/she doesn't desire it, nor will a sub take it when they can't handle it.

For me, D/s creates symbiosis. Whether you are a top or a bottom, in true BDSM, you see your *other* half displayed before you in glaring shades of beautiful, undeniable black and white.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
]The following is what defines OUR relationship. Our kink does not have to be your kink. BDSM is not a 'one size fits all' lifestyle.

i can't agree 100% with the post above. Perhaps you mean to say that in first meeting, in first offering one's submission ... the submissive has control? That i would agree with 100%, as it is only the sub's to offer, it can't be 'taken'.

As a 24/7 real time collared submissive, i offered my submission ONCE to my Master. From that moment on it remained HIS. In giving my submission i also gave Him 100% of my trust. That trust in Him is never questioned. i am His 100% to enjoy 100% in whatever way He diecides will please Him. Period. Limits were discussed, and they are His to push. ( i referre to soft limits here. Hard limits are never pushed... unless they have been discarded by agreement, concentually ... mutually). The act of agreeing to give my submission to my Master was a choice, once given it HE has control regardless, 100%. Sure i have the choice of NOT agreeing, of not giving my submission, and should i choose NOT TO, i will also have chosen to act out disobediantly as His submissive. Punishment would then follow.

If i ever suggested how my Master should punish me, you can bet that He would 'increase' the punishment. This would be viewed as 'topping from the bottom', which my Master has zero tolerance for. my Master rarely has reason to punish me, and when He has, the power is His to do so. He chooses HOW to punish, and when. i've never yet been punished when or how i WANT to be, and as His obedient submissive i TAKE it regardless. It's punishment, it's not supposed to be enjoyable. He is a very loving Master & therefore, my obediance is rewarded, when He feels a reward is warranted.

Our relationship IS one built on a great deal of love & caring which exists for each. Still, i receive pain when He decides, and at the level He decides. There has never been an instance when the time is of *my* choosing, and the pain level is sometimes more than i preferre. This is called 'pushing'. my limits regarding how much pain i have handled in hte past are pushed whenever He decides to.

Some may view the details of the relationship betwen my Master and i as being better defined as a Master/slave type rather than Master/submissive. Regardless of labels, when it's a *true* Dominant/submissive exchange the Dom is in control at all times once submission is offered. A sub who retains control has not really given 100% of thier submission. my Master preferres and demands ALL of me. i give my all because i know it pleases Him. my pleasure is derived from HIS pleasure, as it should be.

¸,ø¤º°sinn0cent1°º¤ø,¸ (proudly owned by, and devoted to INSIDEYOURMIND)