BDSM, Hunting, and Societal Perspectives

[James G 5]

WARNING: Rant Ahead

Ok, the Impregnantion thread was already far enough off topic but it brought up something I wanted to address

GodBlessBreasts said:

I think that shooting and killing animals is incredibly sick activity. I'd be nervous to leave a child of mine (hypothetically, I don't have kids) around somebody that that hunts and kills animals. I personally don't think people that engage in that activity should have kids. But I'm not going to judge people who fantasize about hunting and killing animals. In fact, I think our society would be a lot healthier if more people played video games where the characters shot guns and killed things, and fewer people actually ran around with guns killing things.

And

I think "ethical" hunting is a lot like "ethically" spanking children on their buttocks ... a labored rationalization/justification for indulging in a sick fetish. I wouldn't do either, and I wouldn't want children to be involved in either.

Now, aside from the arguments I already made about hunting here and here, the idea that it's better to promote a form of no consequence fantasy killing that makes people think you can shoot things all you want without reprecussion is ludicrous, as when you hunt you see the results of what you do and have to take it seriously that you're taking another life

So what does this have to do with BDSM?

I've read an awful lot of studies that suggest attitudes like GBB's are common in people from urban areas who have never been around guns & hunting in any fashion besides street violence or media depictions of such, and never come closer to their food than the super market meat aisle
So they find the idea of hunting & the "gun culture" they assume goes with it abhorent
Visit a more rural area where hunting, especially subsitience hunting, is common, and people have a whole different attitude
The difference is local societal/cultural perspective on the activity

Most people, especially the ones we call "Vanilla," find what we do in our bedrooms to be disgusting, abhorent, etc etc and would feel the same way about you having or being around kids as you feel about hunters
While I stand by what I said in the Impregnation thread about drawing reasonable boundaries (here ), I think people need to make a little more effort to step outside whatever narrow perspectives they have established around certain things & cultural biases, and perhaps at least educate them about those things a bit before they condemn them

As a VERY public and active pagan (revilved group!), an active political liberal (reviled group!), an publically active Dominant (revilved group!), and an opnely polyamorous proponent of same (ditto), *I* would certainly be grateful for some attempts at understanding from others, and I think lots of other people would be a lot happier to

Hopefully people who belong to any such groups or engage in happy, non harmful practices (such as BDSM) would make more of an effort to understand the activities of others before making blanket condemnations and saying we're unfit to be around children. And while we're on THAT topic, unless it's an activity that would directly threaten or harm a child, using the argument "We must stop adults from doing 'X' because it's 'bad for the children' " is ABSOLUTELY a tired saw dragged out by those with weak reasoning to assault ideas and practicesd they don't like but can't condemn in any rational manner

/Rant

 

[cellis]

Well our local group does have the once a month Sunday afternoon get together with your fire arms group... but the only thing they have been hunting is a firing range.....

 

[GodBlessBreasts]

Well, what you didn't quote me on is that I think it's fine to fantasize about hunting and killing animals. There really is just no need to to hunt and kill animals, and then eat them in this country. When there are overpopulation problems (I recognize that they occur) the best way to handle it is euthenasia like we would with stray dogs and cats, not treat it as an opportunity for amatuers to engage in sport-killing. It's true I'm a product of a big city environment, and it shapes my opinions on these issues. I'm not a vegan, and I don't think as much as I should about where the meat I eat comes from. I love a good steak. But I would support a law requiring that animals that are killed are done so in the most humane way possible. I would even support a law that banned killing animals for food. We'd probably be a better and healthier society. But until those laws pass, when I look at a menu thousands of years of sociobiology tend to beat a few decades of animal rights philosophy and I pick the deluxe cheeseburger over the raw tofu chunks.

... your points on seeing other people's perspectives and not condemning everything under the sun because it is "bad for children" are well-taken ...

 

[James G 5]

Well, what you didn't quote me on is that I think it's fine to fantasize about hunting and killing animals. There really is just no need to to hunt and kill animals, and then eat them in this country. When there are overpopulation problems (I recognize that they occur) the best way to handle it is euthenasia like we would with stray dogs and cats, not treat it as an opportunity for amatuers to engage in sport-killing. It's true I'm a product of a big city environment, and it shapes my opinions on these issues. I'm not a vegan, and I don't think as much as I should about where the meat I eat comes from. I love a good steak. But I would support a law requiring that animals that are killed are done so in the most humane way possible. I would even support a law that banned killing animals for food. We'd probably be a better and healthier society. But until those laws pass, when I look at a menu thousands of years of sociobiology tend to beat a few decades of animal rights philosophy and I pick the deluxe cheeseburger over the raw tofu chunks.

... your points on seeing other people's perspectives and not condemning everything under the sun because it is "bad for children" are well-taken ...

Not a need perhaps, except as I said in the linked posts that there are those who afford to feed their families that way, and it's healthier and mor ehumane than most factory farming
I DO think about where the steak comes from, the deer I go afer has a better life & cleaner death
Also, the REALITY of hunting doesn't leave you "fantasize (ing) about hunting and killing animals." It's simply a part of reality. All your talk about it makes it sounds as tho you think hunters sexualize or eroticize the experience, which is far from true.
As far as euthanasia, it would be RIDICULOUSLY expensive to go out, trap the animals, and then use drugs to put them down. Average cost per animal JUST for the euthanasia is $40 or so an animal, not including the trapping costs. And then the meat is no good...in states that set up population hunts, unused meat (what the hunters don't claim) is given to food banks for the needy.
Whats shaped your opinion is not the environment of the big city, but the uneducated (not saying you're ignorant, just that you don't KNOW) attitude of people who have no experience with these things.
The whole point of my rant comparing others' attitudes about BDSM to yours about hunting was that people tend to make such assumptions and knee jerk opinions without bothering to ghet educated and look at it from a mroe open perspective. That's what I'm calling on you to do here, and hopefully on others to do in regards to BDSM (and all the other "alt" lifestyles I am part of, which is why I am publically loudly active in them!)

 

[TNRkitect2b]

<removed from post in other thread, and placed here as it is more appropriate here.>


QUOTE]Originally posted by lark sparrow <in other thread>
It's not necessarily a concern about how many growth hormones are in the meat... it's the willingness to take a gun and take pleasure in killing an animal. Yep, when you look at a slaughter house I am sure it doesn't make sense. Yeah, I know there is overpopulation due to land development, and encouragement and benefit to killing wild populations... I know, I know. But it still baffles some of us that one would be willing and eager, without real personal need, to go out and kill a beautiful free range animal. Yes, I know the cruelty involved in domestic meat production. Killing is not a pretty business either way. Some do it for work, some do it for play. [/QUOTE]

And some do it to eat. I don't condone killing needlessly, but I feel that feeding your family consitutes need. I have been in the situation before where a deer was a godsend, because the last of your money had to pay for gas for the car to get to work, and thus you didn't have enough to get anything more than Ramen noodles.

 

[GodBlessBreasts]

Well sure, a more humane death for an animal is more expensive. What price are we as a society willing to pay? If animals need to be killed for ecological reasons, then I think we should let professionals take care of it in a method that is both as cost-effective and humane as possible. As for the needy, I'm not so cruel as to suggest that they be forced on to a vegan diet. But I don't think they should be used as human shields to deflect criticism of a controversial activity, either.

As far as euthanasia, it would be RIDICULOUSLY expensive to go out, trap the animals, and then use drugs to put them down. Average cost per animal JUST for the euthanasia is $40 or so an animal, not including the trapping costs. And then the meat is no good...in states that set up population hunts, unused meat (what the hunters don't claim) is given to food banks for the needy.
[/B]

 

[lark sparrow]

<removed from post in other thread, and placed here as it is more appropriate here.>


QUOTE]Originally posted by lark sparrow <in other thread>
It's not necessarily a concern about how many growth hormones are in the meat... it's the willingness to take a gun and take pleasure in killing an animal. Yep, when you look at a slaughter house I am sure it doesn't make sense. Yeah, I know there is overpopulation due to land development, and encouragement and benefit to killing wild populations... I know, I know. But it still baffles some of us that one would be willing and eager, without real personal need, to go out and kill a beautiful free range animal. Yes, I know the cruelty involved in domestic meat production. Killing is not a pretty business either way. Some do it for work, some do it for play.

And some do it to eat. I don't condone killing needlessly, but I feel that feeding your family consitutes need. I have been in the situation before where a deer was a godsend, because the last of your money had to pay for gas for the car to get to work, and thus you didn't have enough to get anything more than Ramen noodles. [/QUOTE]

lol if you are killing a wild animal to survive, more power to ya, and live another day... I don't think this is the general outlook in America.

 

[James G 5]

Well sure, a more humane death for an animal is more expensive. What price are we as a society willing to pay? If animals need to be killed for ecological reasons, then I think we should let professionals take care of it in a method that is both as cost-effective and humane as possible. As for the needy, I'm not so cruel as to suggest that they be forced on to a vegan diet. But I don't think they should be used as human shields to deflect criticism of a controversial activity, either.

I was not using them in such a fashion, merely commenting on the waste of the meat...you can't just euthanize them and leave them out to ROT, that leads to public health issues
And what makes you think one quick shot with a large caliber bullet is any less humane than trapping an animal, leaving it to struggle, and then juicing it with poison that shuts down its heart and lungs? That's just ridiculous
As for what costs we are willing to pay as a society, that's a great question
We're dealing with an issue here of an overpopulation of feral cats. Hunting them's not practical. They're saying for a population of a few hundred cats it might cost $50,000 to catch them, sterilize them, and realease them vs close to $100,000 to catch them, kill them, and euthanize them. In the Maryland situation I mentioned before (my original home state) they were talking about sums of up to $250,000 to relocate or euthanize the deer. In the current economy we're talking about the kind of $ it would take to hire and retain between one and ten (at the various prices I listed) public school teachers in a given area, or to service vital community needs, often in places that don't have the money for those sort of needed services for PEOPLE.
I love animals...I take in strays & injured/abused animals as pets, I work with adoptions & rehabs, I work against animal cruelty and things like factory farm systems. But I value as much as possible HUMANS and human interest ahead of them. So your cost-effective/humane argument carries little weight and AGAIN shows little understanding of the issues & cosst involved. As somone who, in your own words, "enjoys steak," you have no moral high ground here.

 

[TNRkitect2b]

And some do it to eat. I don't condone killing needlessly, but I feel that feeding your family consitutes need. I have been in the situation before where a deer was a godsend, because the last of your money had to pay for gas for the car to get to work, and thus you didn't have enough to get anything more than Ramen noodles.

lol if you are killing an animal to survive, more power to ya, and live another day... I don't think this is the general outlook in America. [/B][/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, I have seen it happen more than I like. This is the downfall of having lived in the poorer sections of rural america.

 

[James G 5]

lark sparrow said in the Impregnation thread:

It's not necessarily a concern about how many growth hormones are in the meat... it's the willingness to take a gun and take pleasure in killing an animal. Yep, when you look at a slaughter house I am sure it doesn't make sense. Yeah, I know there is overpopulation due to land development, and encouragement and benefit to killing wild populations... I know, I know. But it still baffles some of us that one would be willing and eager, without real personal need, to go out and kill a beautiful free range animal. Yes, I know the cruelty involved in domestic meat production. Killing is not a pretty business either way. Some do it for work, some do it for play.

And I say again, this comes from a lack of knowledge of the topic
First off, I said several times even I, as a hunter, see a difference in subsistience hunting & sport hunting
But taking the overpopulation situation as an example...I bow hunt
I will READILY admit there is something primal about hiking out in the woods, climbing a tree in freezing weather, sitting there for a few hours (or days), bring an animal down with my bow, eating a bit of it there and taking it within me (pagan, remember? Also part Native American) and then assuring the animal is used well
"Thrill" of killing? Not really
Satisfying of primal urges and touching on a deep level of spirituality by pitting my skills & ability against the wild and then celebrating the creature's life? Absolutely

 

[lark sparrow]

And exactly how are you relating this to BDSM may I ask?

I had this video... lol I think it was a PETA video... whom I don't necessarily condone. Anyhow, it showed exactly how our beloved pets in America who were simply needed food in China were treated. I cried my heart out while watching a cat first being thrown into boiling water or oil... it was trying to swim but it's head was mostly under while it slowly fried. Then it was lifted out, the process was intended to loosen it's fur and the first few layers of skin so it could be stripped and peeled of that fur and skin. It was obviously breathing with eyes open during this process and writhing. Then they cut the front and back legs off the cat and laid it on display table... the camera stayed on the cat awhile and it was still breathing the whole time, even sitting there legless. I can only hope it was a biological function and the brain was nearly dead. Slaughter isn't pretty, perhaps a bullet in the head or a quick arrow through the heart is better than a slow suffering death, but I am the kind of hypocrite who has the money to pay for already slaughtered meat, and feels no need to go out and shoot it myself just for the pleasure or challenge of it. If I had to shoot it myself, I might just become a vegan lol. I understand the primal "need", James, though I don't share it, and I don't respect someone saying they need to do it for food, if they really and truly don't because of the safeway three blocks away and some cash in their pocket.

 

[James G 5]

And exactly how are you relating this to BDSM may I ask?

I had this video... lol I think it was a PETA video... whom I don't necessarily condone. Anyhow, it showed exactly how our beloved pets in America who were simply needed food in China were treated. I cried my heart out while watching a cat first being thrown into boiling water or oil... it was trying to swim but it's head was mostly under while it slowly fried. Then it was lifted out, the process was intended to loosen it's fur and the first few layers of skin so it could be stripped and peeled of that fur and skin. It was obviously breathing with eyes open during this process and writhing. Then they cut the front and back legs off the cat and laid it on display table... the camera stayed on the cat awhile and it was still breathing the whole time, even sitting there legless. I can only hope it was a biological function and the brain was nearly dead. Slaughter isn't pretty, perhaps a bullet in the head or a quick arrow through the heart is better than a slow suffering death, but I am the kind of hypocrite who has the money to pay for already slaughtered meat, and feels no need to go out and shoot it myself just for the pleasure or challenge of it. If I had to shoot it myself, I might just become a vegan lol. I understand the primal "need", James, though I don't share it, and I don't respect someone saying they need to do it for food, if they really and truly don't because of the safeway three blocks away and some cash in their pocket.

Well, as mentioned, in my case there're also spiritual underpinnings, and as TN and I have mentioned in a lot of the poorer rural parts of the US there ISN'T a Safeway nearby (the uncle I mention lives in a remote part of NC, in the mountains 45 minutes down icy winding roads from the closest town, 30 minutes from a gas station'store) and where the people, due to poor economy DON'T have $ in their pockets
It's an amalgam of issues and reasons, and much as the GP lumps all BDSM in with abusers, rapists, and killers, you lump all hunters in to wrong categories

It all relates as matters of perception

 

[lark sparrow]

It all relates as matters of perception

LOL how enlightening! I am not saying either of you are bad guys, but I don't think you have the upperhand in this discussion until you show it, dear.

 

[James G 5]

LOL how enlightening! I am not saying either of you are bad guys, but I don't think you have the upperhand in this discussion until you show it, dear.

That comment was simply addressing your question of "how does this relate to BDSM"
It's an anaology

 

[TNRkitect2b]

And exactly how are you relating this to BDSM may I ask?

I had this video... lol I think it was a PETA video... whom I don't necessarily condone. Anyhow, it showed exactly how our beloved pets in America who were simply needed food in China were treated. I cried my heart out while watching a cat first being thrown into boiling water or oil... it was trying to swim but it's head was mostly under while it slowly fried. Then it was lifted out, the process was intended to loosen it's fur and the first few layers of skin so it could be stripped and peeled of that fur and skin. It was obviously breathing with eyes open during this process and writhing. Then they cut the front and back legs off the cat and laid it on display table... the camera stayed on the cat awhile and it was still breathing the whole time, even sitting there legless. I can only hope it was a biological function and the brain was nearly dead. Slaughter isn't pretty, perhaps a bullet in the head or a quick arrow through the heart is better than a slow suffering death, but I am the kind of hypocrite who has the money to pay for already slaughtered meat, and feels no need to go out and shoot it myself just for the pleasure or challenge of it. If I had to shoot it myself, I might just become a vegan lol. I understand the primal "need", James, though I don't share it, and I don't respect someone saying they need to do it for food, if they really and truly don't because of the safeway three blocks away and some cash in their pocket.

Yet in the areas I am refering to, the nearest grocery store is typically 30 miles away. Rural america is the type of place that has people that are able to live comfortably on the $6,000 they make a year, simply because they do grow their own food in their garden, catch their own fish in the lake and hunt their own Deer, Turkey, Boar, Squirrel, Duck, and even <shudder> Possum. Do they buy meet in the grocery? Only when it is severely marked down, to say .69 cents a pound for chicken. Do they live happy lives? yes. Can you survive and feed a family of 3 on $500 / month in the city? Should they be condemned for supplementing their food for the year by hunting?

*edited for bad math... 6000 / 12 = 500 not 600.

 

[lark sparrow]

Okay, if you're a farmer or a backwoods type or simply broke... yes, it's a part of life... sorry, but I don't know any of those people. The people I know kill the animal, and they eat it, but they have access to a grocery store with meat and they have the cash to buy meat at the grocery store. Imagine ???

 

[James G 5]

Another thing
What seems to bother folks like lark and GBB is the idea that this is "wrong" because the hunter gets a thrill of some sort out of it
GBB, as I said, seems to feel that they almost sexualize it
As someone who seeks extreme feeling in sensation in all sorts of venues (sexual, BDSM and otherwise, hunting, skydiving, being a registred Democratic in a Republican neighborhood, etc), the sensations and thrills are NOT the same...contrary to what most would think, the thrill MOST hunters (note I say MOST) get does not come with a stiffy
Nextly, lark seems to feel this sort of thrill shouldn't be allowed because she feels it's wrong, even tho as noted the hunts serve good societal purpose (maintaining balance of herds in a humane fashion in an economical manner) without doing any real harm...one might argue, correctly, that the hunted animal is harmed, but the herd & SPECIES are better served, so you are doing far more good than harm
This is directly analogous to those who say we should not be allowed to engage in BDSM practices because we "harm" one another in what we do, and society as a whole, in the pursuit of our "thrills"
We, of course, know this to be bogus as we are often (hopefully!) improving ourselves and our partners, and by channeling our energies in personally uplifting fashions and nt repressing our desires in ways that might turn us to paths harmful to society (Catholic priests, anyone?) we are doing good for society as a WHOLE
So, if people took more time to undersatdn the WHOLE picture of the wayh people seek their "thrills" and the context of the harm or good it does for them, and for the world around them, instead of simply being judgemental on something they know little about, maybe we'd all be freer & happier & the world would be a better place


Ok, I am running out of ways to express it, am I getting across yet?

 

[James G 5]

Okay, if you're a farmer or a backwoods type or simply broke... yes, it's a part of life... sorry, but I don't know any of those people. The people I know kill the animal, and they eat it, but they have access to a grocery store with meat and they have the cash to buy meat at the grocery store. Imagine ???

So again, you are basing your opinions on a narrow slice of what you KNOW
TN and I offer another perspective, and you choose to disregard what we say and hold on to your culturally biased view
Now do you see why it can be so hard to talk rationally to people who condemn BDSM?
An open mind can be tough to find

 

[lark sparrow]

Whoa James... you are believing your own voice to the appeal of the masses too much. I never said it was wrong. I said I don't get it. I can buy already previously killed meat... it's there dead and waiting. I know the benefits of hunting in a cramped human world. It's not about that - not for me. But don't let me wipe that shit eating grin off your face while you expound the virtues lol.

 

[TNRkitect2b]

Okay, if you a farmer or a backwoods type or simply broke... yes, it's a part of life... sorry, but I don't know any of those people. The people I know kill the animal, and they eat it, but they have access to a grocery store with meat and they have the cash to buy meat at the grocery store. Imagine ???

I can imagine. I have been where I described, and I am where you describe at this point in my life.

As for those that kill the animal and eat it rather than buy the meat in the store, I can not speak for them. I will state that I would rather have venison from the backwoods, than steroid enhanced beef and chicken found in the grocery store. Yes, you can purchase such items in the high end specialty food stores, and you can buy "organically raised" meat at a premium as well. But it is more cost effective to go to a rural Deer Processing facility, where you can often purchase dressed venison for equivalent prices to beef during hunting season. Simple solution to not "getting your hands dirty" and purchasing sanitized meat products.

(this next issue is not addressed at you LS, unless you decide you fall into this category)

The people I truly can not stand are the ones that say allowing people to hunt for population control is wrong, who immediately scream bloody murder when the overpopulation of deer causes them to forage in the city and eat their precious petunias, or totals their car out as they are coming home from work in the evening.
Who can not see that since people decided to hunt to virtual extinction the large carnverous animals that used to keep the deer population in check (in the eastern US, Deer and Mountain Lions) because these same people didn't want their poodles to become lunch (or their children); that there is no natural control over the deer population, resulting in herd sizes that can not be sustained by the land. By following their logic that it is moraly unethical to allow hunting, It condems the deer to a slow painful, death by starvation, or a relatively quick death by impact with a vehicle. Nature was at balance before we came and removed the predators. The only way to remove the problem of deer overpopulation without hunting them would be to re-introduce their natural predators, Or spending exhorbitant amounts of money to sterlize the population, thus causing the deer to dissapear entirely, further destroying the ecosystem.

 

[TNRkitect2b]

I too am only seeking to inform you as to why controlled hunting is the ethical thing to do. As to not wanting to do it yourself, I offered the availability of purchasing the harvested meat, already processed into Steaks, roasts, burgers, and sausage from the processing stations during deer season in my last post.

And I agree that the extreme emotion and condemnation on this issue are paralell to the way that the BDSM community is perceived in society on the whole. Will this matter one bit in htis discussion? Nope!

So, I will leave the two of you to further debate the issues, and head to bed secure in the knowledge that in the morning, no resolution will have been reached, except to disagree.

Good night all.

 

[James G 5]

Whoa James... you are believing your own voice to the appeal of the masses too much. I never said it was wrong. I said I don't get it. I can buy already previously killed meat... it's there dead and waiting. I know the benefits of hunting in a cramped human world. It's not about that - not for me. But don't let me wipe that shit eating grin off your face while you expound the virtues lol.

Correct, you said you didn't understand. GBB said it was wrong, disgusting, shouldn't be allowed around kids, PEOPLE involved shouldn't be around kids, etc. However your comments about a lack of understanding of kiling a beautiful free range animal and "taking pleasure in the killing" imply you feel there is something wrong in doing so.
The thread was started in response to GBB's comments.
I have been responding to you because you've been taking part in the conversation. At no time did I attack you or get angry at you
If I misunderstood what you meant with your choice of words please let me know.
I think the only condesencion in the thread was in this comment

LOL how enlightening! I am not saying either of you are bad guys, but I don't think you have the upperhand in this discussion until you show it, dear.

and your "voice to appeal to the masses/shit eating grin" comments above.
It's also not a matter of achieving "the upperhand" as you say, but of establishing some level of inteelectual parity where these things can be discussed.

Now, as to the topic as a whole, I would submit that the majority (note I said the majority of) of those who object to hunting don't have an issue with fishing, for either sport or food
That is because, qualitatively, we assign differing levels of value to fish than to animals like deer, and from deer to domestic animals (altho "Finding Nemo" might be working with "Bambi" to change this). In this regard, your extreme & distasteful PETA example furthers my commentary by showing how such bias runs across differing cultural lines.

So you have to ask yourself, how often does someone apply that qualitative bias to their view of YOU and YOUR lifestyle (caps not directed as a "shout" at lark but to emphasize the direction at any reading this), and maybe consider your own biases in how you view others
It might help with understanding

 

[James G 5]

And I agree that the extreme emotion and condemnation on this issue are paralell to the way that the BDSM community is perceived in society on the whole. Will this matter one bit in htis discussion? Nope!

So, I will leave the two of you to further debate the issues, and head to bed secure in the knowledge that in the morning, no resolution will have been reached, except to disagree.

Probably so...I am not trying to get her to cast her blessings in hunting tho, merely to get her to try & lok from another perspective past biases...and even if it doesn't succeed maybe make a few points to everyone else that might make them think about biases & perspectives a little

Besides, I'm a lonely insomniac

 

[TNRkitect2b]

Besides, I'm a lonely insomniac

Sorry, I'm not sharing my Slave (and I'm not sleepy, just being responsible ) good night.

 

[James G 5]

Sorry, I'm not sharing my Slave (and I'm not sleepy, just being responsible ) good night.

I have a friend in IMs, if I had one close I wouldn't be up this late
At least not on the computer
And I work at noon on Fridays, so I'm good
Night