BDSM for Nice Guys

[Netzach]

if the clerk who moonlights as a Dominatrix told her manager who came out and told you and your girlfriend to take your little games elsewhere, it's a ladies dressing room, the mall security CAN be informed and will happily enforce.

Does that make her an SOB?


~Netzach
retail slave unchained

 

[Esclava]

Re: Re: Is there an icon for....

I'm not so sure it is impossible for the PYL in a love connected D/s relationship to objectify the pyl on a 24/7 basis. Naturally there cannot be whippings every hour, by the hour, but if the desire and need of the pyl is to be objectified and treated in the fashion described, and the PYL also has a desire or need to be one who delivers such treatment, cannot that be a sign of love? Granted it is not what most on the planet would want or identify as love, but I believe it is a fully informed and healthy need of some, and if the recognition of that corresponding need in the other is established there could be a foundation for a deep and lasting love, and I imagine, relief to have found another who understands and does not try to change the other to fit with what is socially or community accepted.

Stepping outside the box it would mean the PYL (and pyl) could continue and be fulfilled by expressing their love in this socially unconventional way with someone who also relates to it as an act of love and appreciates the opportunity to express their love and selves in this way...the connection of love comes through sharing the same vision and living it, celebrating the reality, not just reserving it for scening in between what others would term real life. Hope this has made some sense.

Catalina

One example of this that I have experienced is the relationship between osg and her PYL. As distasteful as that type of objectification is to me, it is what makes their relationship work.

YES, that type of treatment can be A SIGN of love, but is that type of behavior sustainable 24/7/365??? No romance, no kissing, no affection (touching/petting), no intercourse at all other than "you are a willing vessel for me to hump and dump my seed into"??? 24/7/365? I, personally, don't believe the human psyche is wired that way (kinksters included) nor do I believe it's possible to objectify your mate all the time. I would want to know what attracted them to each other in the first place.

It is THAT attraction that I am speaking of...that feeling which arouses the desire in a pyl to serve as that willing vessel. It is powerful and what I feel would prevent a PYL/pyl from staying in objectification mode 24/7/365.

Esclava

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: Re: Is there an icon for....

Hello Esclave,

It is my experience that most people who try to get into BDSM with as only reason to please their partner or trying to save the relationships fail because the things they are asked to perform do not answer to a need inside.

There are lots of examples where it has been successful and I have often wandered how that could be. Why is it that you see couples after a set time go into BDSM and be successful and happy. Most of the successful couples will tell you that they have been submissive or dominants all along but they just did not know or could not put a name to what their feelings were, they were attracted to their partner maybe just because of what they could sense inside them.

I have often seen Dominants and submissive convince themselves that their partner can be turned into what they need, 99% of those cases fail. IMO just like you can not turn a heterosexual into a homosexual person; you can not turn a vanilla into a BDSM one. Either you are or you are not.

Yes I would try talking with my partner and if she was open to the idea, I would ask her to try it out because you never know she might be into it, she might belong to that small minority that likes BDSM. But most people are not into BDSM and most people will never be into BDSM.

But of course this is just my opinion and if two persons decide to try it out then who am I to say they are not going to succeed. If anything I have learned that we are all individuals and we are all different and unique but it might be wise to be aware of the challenges that lay ahead to increase the possibility of success, which is small enough to start with.

Francisco

 

[catalina_francisco]

Re: Re: Re: Is there an icon for....

One example of this that I have experienced is the relationship between osg and her PYL. As distasteful as that type of objectification is to me, it is what makes their relationship work.

YES, that type of treatment can be A SIGN of love, but is that type of behavior sustainable 24/7/365??? No romance, no kissing, no affection (touching/petting), no intercourse at all other than "you are a willing vessel for me to hump and dump my seed into"??? 24/7/365? I, personally, don't believe the human psyche is wired that way (kinksters included) nor do I believe it's possible to objectify your mate all the time. I would want to know what attracted them to each other in the first place.

It is THAT attraction that I am speaking of...that feeling which arouses the desire in a pyl to serve as that willing vessel. It is powerful and what I feel would prevent a PYL/pyl from staying in objectification mode 24/7/365.

Esclava

I think osg will say there is plenty of touching, kissing, affection in the appropriate time slot, but on the whole it is dominated by that D/s element and would not be the same without it. IMO, it can exist without that for certain people, and can even bring out that affection/love in others. I did not set out to look first for a man I could love and play happy families with 24/7.....I wanted that love, but the number one thing to find first for me while I searched, was someone who shared my vision of D/s and was comfortable with it, was not going to feel bad about what he did, who he was, who I was, would not analyse it all with religious and social overtones.....someone who had already faced their demons and come out smiling. Then if other things matched, complemented, flavoured the relationship with love, that would be the one.

The formula worked in helping me find my one because it was primarily the D/s that was the initial attraction.....like Francisco, I had never felt it an efficient plan to look for the love and then hope the D/s was there or grew, simply because although those things the vanilla world find as love forming were also part of the final mix, the primary focus had to be D/s otherwise he would not have been who he was, thus not the one for me.

What I am trying to say is my elements for attraction were not ever going to be based on those of a vanilla woman, they were dominated by D/s, then the rest following...if he had just had the vanilla qualities, he would have been a gem, but not the one who shone the brightest in the collection...it was the way he spoke at length of D/s and unlike any other that sent delicious thrills up and down my spine from the first moment of contact. Admittedly, during my search there were times when I questioned whether it would be easier to do it the other way around (limited resources of good Dominants and such ), but they were short lived when I reflected on the path I had already travelled and been continuously left feeling wanting...I learned from my lessons and had faith in the fact I would be happier alone then once again in a relationship where I felt like a dog chasing it's tail....guess I just didn't have the energy to try and catch that tail the hard way when it made so much sense to me to use past experiences to learn from. I needed one who shared my D/s vision of how it could be and those unique qualities which made him who he was both D/s and vanilla world....one without the other would never have worked.

Catalina

 

[TaintedB]

Originally posted by James G 5
Well, I know 2, maybe 3 women who'd ENJOY that (dog and all), so if I did it to THEM would I really be an SOB?

You're getting too philosophical on me, James G 5.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

if the clerk who moonlights as a Dominatrix told her manager who came out and told you and your girlfriend to take your little games elsewhere, it's a ladies dressing room, the mall security CAN be informed and will happily enforce.

Does that make her an SOB?


~Netzach
retail slave unchained

You're quite right, Netzach. No question about it. However, that store will not get any of my business again

Actually, a number of stores - Frederick's and Hot Topics for example - in many areas now have a separate chair in some or all of their dressing rooms for another person to join the one trying on clothing. I understand also that some jurisdictions do not allow this (Blue Laws, particularly in Bible Belt states). But the fact remains that even if we are not allowed to go through with the changing/trying on activities, the humiliation for her occurs when it is her responsibility to inform the clerk that she's not allowed to dress/undress herself. Therefore, the primary object of the exercise is satisfied.

 

[Esclava]

Francisco and Catalina,

...point taken.

Esclava

 

[Esclava]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Is there an icon for....

Hello Esclave,

It is my experience that most people who try to get into BDSM with as only reason to please their partner or trying to save the relationships fail because the things they are asked to perform do not answer to a need inside.

<snip - please go read the complete reply above>

But of course this is just my opinion and if two persons decide to try it out then who am I to say they are not going to succeed. If anything I have learned that we are all individuals and we are all different and unique but it might be wise to be aware of the challenges that lay ahead to increase the possibility of success, which is small enough to start with.

Francisco

Francisco,

I tried to accept your reply, sleep on it and let it rest - but it would not rest. When I re-read your response, I was still discouraged.

I heard in what you said that, historically, when one partner “plays” at being PYL/pyl without the desire that drives true service or receipt of such service, the relationship has a poor chance of becoming the awesome encounter experienced by those with the innate sense that they are PYL/pyl (or that were born with that sense). The attempt to appease a BDSM kinked partner will be an uphill battle and the “not-quite-so-kinked” partner should just get ready for that.

If I were faced with such a decision and came to this place seeking information and possible support, I would have been discouraged by your response – so discouraged that I might have put up defenses to enhance the uphill battle as opposed to opening my mind to level the field so the walk would be easier.

I am one who “played” at being submissive for a kinked partner and paid for it with a very, VERY bad experience. However, what I discovered in that horrible relationship was the desire to serve one who is strong in character, trustworthy, cares about me to the extent that s/he knows it only deepens my submission to them, and craves my respectful obedience and disagreement – especially when either of these calls him/her to task about something we have a difference of opinion about.

In your words, I hear you saying to let them try; but you don’t really believe they stand a chance (Please correct me if I misread what was written). I will not argue with the experience you have that supports what you believe. My own personal experience tells me that if you love someone enough to even consider “playing” at being kinked; you owe it to yourself and your SO to taste and see if BDSM life is as good as it is said to be. I tasted…I believe...and I will be ready for when it comes and I allow it to claim me.

Esclava

Edited to add: Thank you for listening to me speak my truth quietly and (hopefully) clearly. The discouragement has been eased.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hello Esclava,

I was not trying to discourage you, but you see I have a mathematical and logical mind (although some claim I am a hopeless romantic). The maths are sad and discouraging. The most optimistic estimations claim that about 10 % of the humankind is into BDSM. That means that 90% is not.

So you are already starting on an uphill battle, but it gets even worse. Not only is there only a minority of the people involved into BDSM, there are also many different tastes of BDSM and most people will find happiness only within a couple of flavours.

So yes the fact remains your chances are not good, the fact remains that if you look at it with a hard cold logical and mathematical approach your chances at finding happiness in the vanilla world are not good.

But not everything is bleak and not everything is hopeless, you see for almost every wandering soul travelling in search for his partner there are thousands out there looking for exactly that person. Inside the BDSM community there are a lot of persons looking for a partner, looking for that person with whom they can become one.

My message is not one of despair and misery but one of joy and gladness. Look in the right places and you will find. If you are into BDSM do not try converting vanilla, if you would be gay would you try turning heterosexuals. You might, some try, but most gay persons have learned that they have the highest chance of success inside their own community. And that is basically my message, do not waste your time in trying to turn vanilla, but go for the gold and do not be happy with tin. Vanillas which are inclined towards BDSM will find their way into it, one way or the other. Just as homosexuality can not be denied successfully neither can BDSM.

To me your story is a prime example of what I am saying, vanilla can not be turned into BDSM. You are not vanilla so even after your relationship failed you stayed inside the BDSM community. Would you have been vanilla, you would have gladly gone back to the vanilla world and tried to forget everything that had to do with BDSM.

Like I have said before people who are not vanilla will find their way one way or another into the BDSM community.

Francisco.

 

[Esclava]

Francisco,

Your words (and the wisdom supporting them) have never been lost on me. Your patient explanation is appreciated as it reminds me that I am – and probably always will be – an exceptional individual. I may not always see with the logic of a mathematician, but I try to keep a vision of the forest instead of a single tree. My friend, Catalina, is fortunate indeed.

Thank you very much!

Esclava

 

[Pure]

speaking of intellectual compartments...

I don't think everyone is just one thing, vanilla, straight, gay, etc.; and that assignment stays from birth to death.

Esp. I don't buy most people's assertions at 40, "I have always been... but didn't know it." I see no reason a person couldn't be straight at 20, and gay at 40.

I see no reason there can't be sm 'phases', and see no reason to say, "well, s/he's always sm, but sometimes denying it (in between the phases)." (since the reverse could equally be said).

 

[rosco rathbone]

speaking of intellectual compartments...

I don't think everyone is just one thing, vanilla, straight, gay, etc.; and that assignment stays from birth to death.

Esp. I don't buy most people's assertions at 40, "I have always been... but didn't know it." I see no reason a person couldn't be straight at 20, and gay at 40.

I see no reason there can't be sm 'phases', and see no reason to say, "well, s/he's always sm, but sometimes denying it (in between the phases)." (since the reverse could equally be said).

I can totally dig it. Something fucked up is happening to me and I don't even know how to describe it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

speaking of intellectual compartments...

I don't think everyone is just one thing, vanilla, straight, gay, etc.; and that assignment stays from birth to death.

Esp. I don't buy most people's assertions at 40, "I have always been... but didn't know it." I see no reason a person couldn't be straight at 20, and gay at 40.

I see no reason there can't be sm 'phases', and see no reason to say, "well, s/he's always sm, but sometimes denying it (in between the phases)." (since the reverse could equally be said).

In my experience in the gay community, with friends, and the group I initiated and ran for a few years (not to mention celebrity figures such as George Michael and Elton John), I have yet to hear them say they were straight, and then became gay later on. The most common scenario for those who begin gay relationships later in life as opposed to the first relationship is they were trying to suppress or hide the desire they had for same sex relationships, or were in total denial..not that they woke up one day and decided to change midstream so to speak. Of course there are also those who are bisexual, but that is not a matter of being straight, then being gay.

Catalina

 

[Pure]

Hi C., Well, one could debate the 'gay from birth' issue, but it is only an *illustration* of the main point, which you don't address.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hi C., Well, one could debate the 'gay from birth' issue, but it is only an *illustration* of the main point, which you don't address.

LOL, and I am sure you already know where I stand on that from past and recent posts and discussions. It has never been a secret or unique among people in this lifestyle, especially those who treat it as more than a way to spark up the sexlife for a bit.

Catalina

 

[shamble]

Hi, I'm new to these boards and to BDSM. I have read some great threads so far that have helped me immensely in understanding exactly what it is I want.

I'm extremely intrigued at becoming a Dom, and this thread has brought an interesting question to my mind. I don't derive pleasure from physical pain, but I am certainly not adverse to giving it. So, is it the consensus of most posters that sadism MUST include physical pain? What about the denial of pleasure to a sub?

I've pinched, bitten, slapped, cum on before as a form of humiliation and I've always been very much in control during sex; but I've always retained the desire for her pleasure.

Is it necessary to lose that desire to become a true Dom, while using the knowledge of what gives her pleasure as a means to better control her?



Ok, maybe this thread brought 2 questions to my mind.

 

[catalina_francisco]

A "true Dom"?

May I ask what that is?

IMO there is no such thing as a "true Dom", any person makes their own rules as to what dominance is about and how to behave accordingly. The only real advice I can give you in becoming a "true Dom" is first deciding what you think dominance is.

Make your own definition, talk with others read as much as possible and read up on SSC or RACK. We have a great library.

Francisco.
.

 

[Pure]

In short the problem of being a real/true dom is sort of like the problem of being 'real cool dude'-- you kind of make up the signs.
You're 'cool' if you and your best friend think you are. And MMV.

Being a (real) dom is not like being really gay, or really a good tennis player, or even a real serial killer, not to say a real plumber.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I call bullshit, Pure!

Real doms are, you know, kind of quiet and unassuming, but they have this presence that even vanilla people can sense and even though they are polite and soft spoken, they never seem to have problems getting others to do as they say....


*snicker*

 

[Quint]

Your example made me realize that we all have different ideas of what being an SOB is. To me, the dressing room humiliation is pretty normal dom behavior, not particularly mean or SOB acting. So what would I call being an SOB? Hard to answer, probably because I'm tired, but for me it would definitely involve unfair trickery or else somebody manipulating a known weakness. Here's a little example:

He: (with hand behind his back) Thanks for coming over on such short notice sweetheart. As I told you on the phone, I have something really special for you.

She: (approaches him happily) Oh! What is it? Is it behind your back? I bet it is.

He: It sure is, darling. (he then pulls his fist out from behind his back, punches her very hard in the stomach, then, as she falls over trying to get her breath back, pulls her pants down and assrapes here...or has the dog assrape her.

That sort of thing, a bait-and-switch situation, would be SOB behavior to me, because it seems so unfair. How do some of the rest of you define being an SOB?

Taint

Hot. Pure and simple, the hottest thing I've read in a long time.

Sorry...think the message got lost in the translation there.

 

[shamble]

What, you guys teling me there's no great secret to becoming a Dom?

No "Spank or spank not, there is no try"?

Are you telling me that, like everything else in life, I must base it on my own desires and beliefs?

Damnit, where is my easy answer?!

 

[shy slave]

I call bullshit, Pure!

Real doms are, you know, kind of quiet and unassuming, but they have this presence that even vanilla people can sense and even though they are polite and soft spoken, they never seem to have problems getting others to do as they say....


*snicker*

In the main I would agree with you RR, there are other Domly types but these ones are the scarey ones. You can't 'top from the bottom' or weedle your way out of things with them. They have an unknown element to them. Which is wonderfully scary, maybe they are the true SOB's

 

[shy slave]

Hello Esclava,

I was not trying to discourage you, but you see I have a mathematical and logical mind (although some claim I am a hopeless romantic). The maths are sad and discouraging. The most optimistic estimations claim that about 10 % of the humankind is into BDSM. That means that 90% is not.

So you are already starting on an uphill battle, but it gets even worse. Not only is there only a minority of the people involved into BDSM, there are also many different tastes of BDSM and most people will find happiness only within a couple of flavours.

So yes the fact remains your chances are not good, the fact remains that if you look at it with a hard cold logical and mathematical approach your chances at finding happiness in the vanilla world are not good.

But not everything is bleak and not everything is hopeless, you see for almost every wandering soul travelling in search for his partner there are thousands out there looking for exactly that person. Inside the BDSM community there are a lot of persons looking for a partner, looking for that person with whom they can become one.

My message is not one of despair and misery but one of joy and gladness. Look in the right places and you will find. If you are into BDSM do not try converting vanilla, if you would be gay would you try turning heterosexuals. You might, some try, but most gay persons have learned that they have the highest chance of success inside their own community. And that is basically my message, do not waste your time in trying to turn vanilla, but go for the gold and do not be happy with tin. Vanillas which are inclined towards BDSM will find their way into it, one way or the other. Just as homosexuality can not be denied successfully neither can BDSM.

To me your story is a prime example of what I am saying, vanilla can not be turned into BDSM. You are not vanilla so even after your relationship failed you stayed inside the BDSM community. Would you have been vanilla, you would have gladly gone back to the vanilla world and tried to forget everything that had to do with BDSM.

Like I have said before people who are not vanilla will find their way one way or another into the BDSM community.

Francisco.

Francisco
I enjoy how your mind works with the number crunching.

It makes me realise that it is amazing that any of us meet anyone we are even remotely compatible with, never mind compatibility on many levels.

It seems that at the most basic level we are what we are, thankfully there are other people out there who are what they are; despite all the odds sometimes it just works out x

 

[Pure]

rr:

Real doms are, you know, kind of quiet and unassuming, but they have this presence that even vanilla people can sense and even though they are polite and soft spoken, they never seem to have problems getting others to do as they say....

sort of a cross between mahatma gandhi and george patton; or saint theresa of the little flower and elizabet bathory.

 

[Netzach]

I have to wear a hoodie or they see my domme aura and throw themselves into traffic, prostrate and aroused.