Barbaric and Backwards

[neonlyte]

The UK 'newspaper' - The Sun - yesterday printed a full page photo of Saddam in his underpants. I find difficulty in justifying their moral right to exercise this 'freedom', they are the ones who say it was not immoral by the way, which at least means someone thought about it. I suppose we should not be surprised by The Sun's action, the worlds best selling English language 'newspaper' (3.5 million copies a day), afterall they have no qualms in masquerading bare breasted girls as news, not that I mind looking at them, just that their place in a 'newspaper' seems to me as un-newsworthy.

Anyway, here is a quote from GW carried on todays BBC website:

US President George W Bush said he did not think the photos would encourage insurgents in Iraq.

"I don't think a photo inspires murderers. I think they're inspired by an ideology that's so barbaric and backwards that it's hard for many in the Western world to comprehend how they think."

I have no truck with people who murder in pursuit of an ideology, lets be clear about that, but GW's statement is almost calculated to insult the Islamic faith and stir the terrorists into greater effort.

By lumping Islamic ideology into the same sentence as murders is the act of a fool. He's identified the enemy for the Islamic world, and he's labelled it as the Western world. He's polarised a faith and labelled it murderers.

Islam is a Religion, it's a faith, it's a doctrine, just like Christianity, Judaism, Budism etc. Like it or not, 'we' - the Western world - have to learn to live alongside the Islamic world and until we recognise and accept Islam as a parallel ideology the extremists will continue with their barbarous acts fuelled by the mouthings of a Western idiolect who seems hell bent on confrontation.

Free Speech.
Freedom of Expression.
Freedom to pursue Ideology.

Does anyone in the US administration have a clue?

 

[LadyJeanne]

Does anyone in the US administration have a clue?

In a word: no.

 

[minsue]

wandering through on the wings of insomnia

I decided some time ago that they know exactly what they're doing. You can only write off so much as being moronic before it starts to sink in that there's a method to the madness. What terrifies me is trying to figure out what that madness is and why. Sadly, based on numerous veiled comments such as these decrying Islam, I do think a large part of it is due to religious ideology. Like some kind of horrifying modern version of the crusades.

I think it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The only thing that I can hope for is that the world somehow stops us with diplomacy before a world war is necessary. I no longer trust us to stop ourselves.

 

[Diamondbarrow]

It's a cross between idiocy and the above stated 'method to madness.'

Anyway, just to give my two cents without getting to gung-ho (i've wasted a lot of energy on politics), the main problem in our relations with the middle east, and quite possibly the problem with humanity in general, is that no one bothers to understand. They take what other people tell them, and accept that as fact. How many people in the current administration has taken the time to research and explore Islam? Not enough, because we are trying to enforce democracy on a non-democratic belief system. It's asinine in all possible ways, really.

 

[impressive]

I decided some time ago that they know exactly what they're doing. You can only write off so much as being moronic before it starts to sink in that there's a method to the madness. What terrifies me is trying to figure out what that madness is and why. Sadly, based on numerous veiled comments such as these decrying Islam, I do think a large part of it is due to religious ideology. Like some kind of horrifying modern version of the crusades.

I think it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The only thing that I can hope for is that the world somehow stops us with diplomacy before a world war is necessary. I no longer trust us to stop ourselves.

Amen!

 

[dr_mabeuse]

[snip]

the main problem in our relations with the middle east, and quite possibly the problem with humanity in general, is that no one bothers to understand. They take what other people tell them, and accept that as fact. How many people in the current administration has taken the time to research and explore Islam? Not enough, because we are trying to enforce democracy on a non-democratic belief system. It's asinine in all possible ways, really.

60,000 Americans lost their lives in Viet Nam because no one in the US government took the time to study Viet Namese history, and so we completely misunderstood the nature of what was going on over ther. We saw a fight for independence to be an act of global communist aggression and acted accordingly. I really thought we'd learned our lesson.

This Saddam picture business is worse than it looks too. We should have learned from Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo how enraging this kind of humiliation is to Iraqi Muslims. It's simply waving a red flag in their faces. They see it as evidence of our total lack of decency and complete disregard for human dignity, and for Bush to rub their faces in it by saying that the terrorists' ideology is "...so barbaric and backwards that it's hard for many in the Western world to comprehend how they think." while posting pictures like this is just incredible. How many more times does he want to demonstrate to Iraq how truly evil and demonic the West is?

There's more too. They went ahead and published another picture. Now, haven;t there just been violent riots in Afghanistan over rumors of Koran desecration? It's almost like they're intentionally trying to incite riots and killing. What's wrong? Is it a slow news day?

Someone (I didn't catch the details) came out and said that the photos were published as a way of "breaking the resistance" by taking Sadam down a peg or two. That's like trying to break the resistance of a beehive by poking it with a stick.

The incompetence and ignorance of these people is just absolutely breathtaking.

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

I decided some time ago that they know exactly what they're doing. You can only write off so much as being moronic before it starts to sink in that there's a method to the madness. What terrifies me is trying to figure out what that madness is and why. Sadly, based on numerous veiled comments such as these decrying Islam, I do think a large part of it is due to religious ideology. Like some kind of horrifying modern version of the crusades.

I think it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. The only thing that I can hope for is that the world somehow stops us with diplomacy before a world war is necessary. I no longer trust us to stop ourselves.

It is a crusade. The Antichristian Right has been very deliberate that they are not against terrorism, but are rather co-opting the cause for a perpetual war against Islam itself in a modern incarnation of the "My incarnation of God has a bigger dick than your incarnation of God" debate and slaughter. Atrocity will beget atrocity and etc and historians will say it was the #th Crusade (what number are we up to by the way).

Who knows? Maybe good men who are genuinely religious will put a stop to this and George W Bush and Osama binLadin will have joint executions for treason and terrorism respectively and for pissing their respective faiths into unneccesary holy war. But since I'm not currently wearing a parka, I'd say the odds on that are slim to none. I'll settle instead for the knowledge that they'll be looking very confused on their deathbeds as I hand them their shovel and their place in the sulfur pits.

 

[R. Richard]

The UK 'newspaper' - The Sun - yesterday printed a full page photo of Saddam in his underpants. I find difficulty in justifying their moral right to exercise this 'freedom', they are the ones who say it was not immoral by the way, which at least means someone thought about it. I suppose we should not be surprised by The Sun's action, the worlds best selling English language 'newspaper' (3.5 million copies a day), afterall they have no qualms in masquerading bare breasted girls as news, not that I mind looking at them, just that their place in a 'newspaper' seems to me as un-newsworthy.

Anyway, here is a quote from GW carried on todays BBC website:

US President George W Bush said he did not think the photos would encourage insurgents in Iraq.

"I don't think a photo inspires murderers. I think they're inspired by an ideology that's so barbaric and backwards that it's hard for many in the Western world to comprehend how they think."

I am somewhat puzzled by the discussion here.

A newspaper in the UK prints a photo of Saddam Hussein in which Saddam is wearing only what appear to be a pair of jockey shorts. Of course, such a photo is offensive to those who follow Islam.

President Bush then states that murders are by an ideology that's so barbaric and backwards that it's hard for many in the Western world to comprehend how they think. The ideology to which President Bush is referring is not Islam as such. It is a radical interpretation of Islam that even to followers of Islam are beginning to reject. It is a radical interpretation of Islam that allows Zarqawi to state that is is a religious duty to kill innocent Islamic civilians if they get in the way of his jihad. Many followers of Islam have rejected Zarqawi's statements.

Now, let me ask a question. Why have the mainstream followers of Islam not issued fatwas that condemn the killing of innocent Islamic civilians and publically state that those who do such deeds will be condemned to hell for crimes set forth in the Q'ran? Those who have studied Islam will recognize that such fatwas would very probably disrupt and maybe even eliminate the terror groups. [In effect, such fatwas would excommunicate the terrorists.] The lack of such fatwas from either sunni or shia clerics tend to give President Bush's remarks some crediblity.

JMHO.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Now, let me ask a question. Why have the mainstream followers of Islam not issued fatwas that condemn the killing of innocent Islamic civilians and publically state that those who do such deeds will be condemned to hell for crimes set forth in the Q'ran? Those who have studied Islam will recognize that such fatwas would very probably disrupt and maybe even eliminate the terror groups. [In effect, such fatwas would excommunicate the terrorists.] The lack of such fatwas from either sunni or shia clerics tend to give President Bush's remarks some crediblity.

JMHO.

I'm no Islamic scholar (though I do wear inderpants), but I always thought a fatwa was like a papal bull. Killing is already against a sin in Islam, and so issuing a fatwa against it would be like the Pope coming out and issuing a bull condeming theft.

Nudity and humiliation are no great shakes to us, but they are to Muslims, especially Iraqi Shiite Muslims (the religion varies from country to country and by ethnic group). In fact, public disprespect is legitimate grounds for revenge killing in Iraq and a bunch of other Arab cultures. To put Bush's remarks in context, it's rather as if some Shiites desecrated some innocent corpses (as they did) and then stood up and accused the US army of being "barbaric and backwards."

In fact, it may be that this kind of public humiliation and nudity is more offensive to the Iraqis than beheading and corpse desecration, both of which were rather common in Sadam's day. In any case, it can't serve any good purpose, no more than can flushing Korans down toilets. It just shows a total arrogance and American disregard for cultural differences.

One final point about the terrorists. Let's not forget that to a hell of a lot of Iraqis, these guys aren't terrorists but freedom fighters, laying down their lives to drive the infidel invaders from their country. Despite what the US government would have us believe, these guys couldn't operate without the full complicity and cooperation of the Iraqi pppulation at large.

They don't want us there. And the more we behave like this and pretend that their "freedom fighters" are backwards barbarians, the more viciously they're going to fight back.

BTW, al-Zaqawi, the head of the Iraqi Al Qaida, is far and away the most popular figure in Iraq.

 

[elsol]

"I don't think a photo inspires murderers. I think they're inspired by an ideology that's so barbaric and backwards that it's hard for many in the Western world to comprehend how they think."

If this is your quote... as to where does it specify Islam?

The murderers = the terrorists or 'rebels'

Are YOU making the connection that terrorists = islamics?

Did maybe he continue somewhere past this to say 'The Islamic religion is so barbaric and backwards it's hard for many in the Western world to comprehend how they think"?

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[neonlyte]

If this is your quote... as to where does it specify Islam?

The murderers = the terrorists or 'rebels'

Are YOU making the connection that terrorists = islamics?

Did maybe he continue somewhere past this to say 'The Islamic religion is so barbaric and backwards it's hard for many in the Western world to comprehend how they think"?

Sincerely,
ElSol

Let me see. GW is talking about the Saddam Underpants picture.
He says (unquoted) he doesn't think the pictures insurgents in Iraq.
He says (quoted) "I don't think a photo inspires murders."
Maybe he's taking about another photo and another lot of insurgents? What do you think?
Maybe the insurgents in Iraq are not Islamic - yeh... that's probably it.

 

[elsol]

Let see...

You lumped Islamic ideology into his statement not GW.

He stated

a) It doesn't inspire MURDERERS.
b) They (the MURDERERS) are inspired by an ideology...

Where are you getting the ideology he is talking about is the religious ideology named 'Islam'?

Are all murderers Islams? Cause I swear I've read somewhere where Christians take some pleasure out of killing people too.

GW can't find a whole sentence in a book... but come on!

Sincerely,
ElSol

 

[KarenAM]

Now, let me ask a question. Why have the mainstream followers of Islam not issued fatwas that condemn the killing of innocent Islamic civilians and publically state that those who do such deeds will be condemned to hell for crimes set forth in the Q'ran?

I believe that a number of important Muslim groups in Spain did issue a fatwa to this effect, specifically pointing to the train bombings as apostasy.

 

[Virtual_Burlesque]

As someone who has been know to wear less in public than what Saddam is pictured wearing, I have difficultly seeing a connection between that picture of Saddam and any variety of Islamist.

Saddam was a most secular Arab. Except for the Ba'ath Party members who held power because of him, I see no Arab taking offense at the belittling of their former oppressor — certainly not on religious grounds.

Or are you trying to resuscitate that tired old claim of a connection between Saddam and al Qaeda (type) Islam extremists?


I viscerally dislike giving even the appearance of agreeing with the Shrub, but except for bad taste — sort of like kicking a dog when it is down — I can see no real damage that photograph should cause as an insult to the religion of Islam.