Bad Habits?

[Alex De Kok]

Interesting thread and well worth the time to read through. I'm happy enough with most of mine, although I can write ridiculously long sentences at times. Somewhere, in one of my pieces, is a one hundred and fifty word sentence. Deliberately that long, because of what I was trying to convey. I sometimes use parenthetical phrases, separated either by dashes or commas, and that brings me to the point of this rambling missive.

One thing I hate to see in a piece of fiction is a parenthetical phrase actually in parentheses. It always brings my voluntary suspension of reality to a halt, because it just looks plain wrong in a piece of fiction.

Am I being stupidly sensitive?

Alex

 

[Guest]

One thing I hate to see in a piece of fiction is a parenthetical phrase actually in parentheses. It always brings my voluntary suspension of reality to a halt, because it just looks plain wrong in a piece of fiction.
Am I being stupidly sensitive?

Alex, of course you're not being stupidly sensitive. I too don't understand how parens are supposed to be used, or how they can be used effectively and/or correctly, i.e., what's the difference between using parens, dashes and semicolons?

When I write informally I use them a lot for meaning or as asides, but I quit using them in fiction cos I just don't know what's what.

I'd be interested to hear from others re. this.

Perdita

 

[gauchecritic]

All my writing is habitual; whether it's bad or not I really couldn't say. Looks ok to me.

The one thing that I'm fully aware of (and have pointed out to me quite often) is the state of confusion that I leave in stories.

Jumping scenes. un-tagged dialogue. Complex sentences. Fragments.

But the main reason for confusion is that when I write, I know exactly why, who, where and how and every detail in between, but I forget that the reader doesn't have that detail. Even when I spot where I've done that I'm often too subtle in my covert inclusion of hints at the detail.

The upshot is that to 'get' everything in the story, the reader has to either read it very carefully, which can spoil the enjoyment, or read it more than once exclaiming "Oh I see now." "Right, I get it now." as they read it again.

While this might be good in a comedy fillum, meaning you can watch it again and again, it's not so great in a story, when it requires quite an investment of not only time but also little grey cells.

I'm still awaiting a feedback that asks for explanation rather than "this was too hard to follow and I didn't get hard (or wet)"

Gauche

 

[ABSTRUSE]

All my writing is habitual; whether it's bad or not I really couldn't say. Looks ok to me.

The one thing that I'm fully aware of (and have pointed out to me quite often) is the state of confusion that I leave in stories.

Jumping scenes. un-tagged dialogue. Complex sentences. Fragments.

But the main reason for confusion is that when I write, I know exactly why, who, where and how and every detail in between, but I forget that the reader doesn't have that detail. Even when I spot where I've done that I'm often too subtle in my covert inclusion of hints at the detail.

The upshot is that to 'get' everything in the story, the reader has to either read it very carefully, which can spoil the enjoyment, or read it more than once exclaiming "Oh I see now." "Right, I get it now." as they read it again.

While this might be good in a comedy fillum, meaning you can watch it again and again, it's not so great in a story, when it requires quite an investment of not only time but also little grey cells.

I'm still awaiting a feedback that asks for explanation rather than "this was too hard to follow and I didn't get hard (or wet)"

Gauche

Gauche, I like how you make mention of the story being like a movie.
I sometimes think of it as a play in my head to get the dialogue down and then go back and flesh out the visuals.
~A~

 

[Guest]

Jumping scenes. un-tagged dialogue. Complex sentences. Fragments.

Gaucho, sounds like feedback Beckett or Joyce would have received. I believe you'd do a very fine Molly Bloom-like soliloquy.

Perdita

 

[raphy]

Gauche, I like how you make mention of the story being like a movie.
I sometimes think of it as a play in my head to get the dialogue down and then go back and flesh out the visuals.
~A~

I always write cinematically. Just comes from being a product of my generation, I think.

 

[rgraham666]

I smoke a pipe. Oh wait! Not that type of bad habit.

Well, every time I stop, to think about what, to write, I put, a comma in. This really ruins a sentence's rythm.

But we should always remember Voltaire's advice, "All styles are good, except the boring."

 

[Black Tulip]

I am still fighting with the comma in English sentences. My biggest sin is fragmentary sentences though. I am slowly learning to leave them in. Sometimes it's the best way to convey the right feeling.



A little arrogance never hurt anybody.

 

[oggbashan]

I am still fighting with the comma in English sentences. My biggest sin is fragmentary sentences though. I am slowly learning to leave them in. Sometimes it's the best way to convey the right feeling.



A little arrogance never hurt anybody.

Word's spelling and grammar checker is often tyrannical. Fragmentary sentences or even 'fragments' are OK if they work in context. In dialogue they are almost obligatory as speakers interrupt each other.

Sometimes Word is just WRONG.

Og

 

[raphy]

Well, every time I stop, to think about what, to write, I put, a comma in. This really ruins a sentence's rythm.

Haha, I do exactly the same thing, rg..... I'm forever having to go back and edit the previous sentence because of it.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Dr. M. or anyone else who's worked with editors-- How do you know when to "stick to your guns" regarding editing, and when to give in?

That's a good question.

If I'm writing as a mercenary, for someone else to put their name on, like Shereads does, then I really don't care what they do to it after I turn it over. But if my name's going on it, then I care.

My experience with editors--admittedly limited--is that they have a lot of text to go through and they operate like MS grammar-checker: certain things just set off their red lights. And just like with the MS grammar checker, a lot of the time you just have to over-ride them.

I know the rules of grammar (for the most part), but ultimately I rely on my ear and how something reads, and I believe the rules are subservient to the writer and not vice versa. As long as you're in control of your material, then lapses of grammar, if not too egregious and shocking, should be taken as being intentional, part of that writer's technique.

So this editor told me that they didn't like adverbs modifying "he/she said", and more than that, they didn't like "he/she saids" either. Rather than:

"You're late," Joe said.

They'd prefer something like:

"You're late." Joe looked impatiently at his watch.

Now, I know what they mean. The "Joe saids" and "said Joes" can be overdone and start to stand out and get distracting pretty quickly. But to forbid them altogether was just ridiculous, and I told him so, and he said okay.

(I mean: "Okay." He drummed his fingers on the desk.)

On the other hand, had this been an editor at Random House or something...

---dr.M.

 

[Black Tulip]

Sometimes Word is just WRONG.

Og

EXACTLY.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

One thing I hate to see in a piece of fiction is a parenthetical phrase actually in parentheses. It always brings my voluntary suspension of reality to a halt, because it just looks plain wrong in a piece of fiction.

Am I being stupidly sensitive?

Alex

I iknow what you mean, but I've seen it done. It's usually more acceptable in a 'telling' part of a story than when you're in live action, where it does tend to ruin the mood.

I've seen it done in dialogue too, where it kind of jumps out of you, but is effective in conveying the idea of someone muttering under their breath. Patrick O'Brian does this kind of thing. So does Jane Austin. It has a distinct nineteenth-century feel to it, though.

---dr.M.

 

[Liar]

I start every other sentence with 'and', 'but' or 'or'. And they aren't even real sentences. But instead they should be connected to the previous ones with a comma. Or a dash. But I don't care. And thus, some people complain.

I also sometimes write long running dialouges without any guidance to who's talking. No "he said/she said" for ten, twenty lines. Sometimes it works, most of the time it confuses readers. I guess it comes from my script writing, where you see and hear the people saying the lines anyway.

#L

 

[pop_54]

I've got so many bad habits, I am now a hopeless case... a lost cause... no way back. (See what I mean)

I'm told I write as I speak... which I'm also told is wrong.

Shit I speak English... what the fuck else can I write.

I personally don't give a damn about 'proper' written English, if it's readable and doesn't detract from the subject... good enough for me... It was good enough for Shakespeare.

pops............. (The illiterate one)

 

[CharleyH]

Yes, I'm talking about bad writing habits here, not any other kind!

Run-on Sentences, Comma Splices

Oh what good is this than? LOL

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Speaking for myself, there's one bad habit that's annoying above all others. Noticing it once, you'll never forget it. Settling into your mind, it'll never leave you alone. Having caught it, you won't easily get rid of it.

Yes, it's rampant paricipial phrase-itis. It drives me nuts. Sometimes I think it must be the second sentence structure people learn, right after the simple declarative Subject-verb-object type. Reading a story that has a lot of leading phrases like this, I grow anguished. Trying to shut my eyes, it only gets worse. Getting up from the computer, I stagger across the room...

Which brings to mind bad habit #2: ellipsismania! You know... Where they use that thing... That ellipsis... Instead of a period... Or a comma... Or anything... ... ......

---dr.M. ...

 

[shereads]

Pondering Dr. Mabeuse's meaning, shereads read the post again. Feeling strangely defensive about this post, she began to see his meaning. Reading the post a third time (or was it the fourth?) she became embarrassed at its resemblance to her own writing. Checking the number of her posts to Lit (she had joined in June), she wondered how long it would take to edit all 4,000+. Hoping to eliminate the evidence of her worst habits, she began to search the archives. Facing a morning deadline for a swampland brochure, she became discouraged and decided to postpone the mammoth editing task.

Meanwhile, looking at rg's post, about the commas, she wondered if, perhaps, she too had been guilty, as it were, of using too many commas.

And what about ellipses? Had she used those, too, as a crutch?

Wandering into the kitchen for a Diet Coke, she couldn't help wondering...

 

[Omni]

The one thing I was taken to task for lately by an editor was the use of "said adverbally" attribution statements. You know: "he said swiftly", "she muttered complacently". The edior said that wasn't acceptable but I stood by my guns and said that I'd done it with full awareness of what I was doing and that they were necessary, and he backed down.
---dr.M.

I am sticking with you Dr M! Will be being gleefully unacceptable.

I do this ALL the time, hear ALL the time it is unacceptable too. Hey, it reads good. I think editors need to read it afterward and see how they might screw up the flow. ~laughing.

I have a new editor/proofreader who by all accounts is gleefully re-writing me into proper form. Luckily, I get final say in my world.

(But) hehehe love those But's, I think I will print one as the editor wished it to be and one as I did, then let them just read both.

I wonder if that would work. Reading flow is SO important, right, wrong, or indifferent on grammar.


Hmm, bad habits:

Commas
Ly words
Starting sentences with But, And, all types of naughty stuff.
LONG sentences
I think just about anything ever mentioned as bad I use.

And, my spell checker says the naughtiest of all is using words like Cock, pussy, bastard.......SC says, constantly, I should consider revising this offensive usage!

Omni

 

[Sunnie]

Yes, I'm talking about bad writing habits here, not any other kind!

The one thing I get picked up on, when I ask other writers to critique my work, is my bad habit of having run-on sentences (comma splices). I think it must be the way I write, kinda as it flows into my head. I try to look out for them now, but, even after I have gone through and done what I feel is a thorough edit, there's always one or two that slip through the net.

Does anybody else have this problem, or a different recurring problem?

Lou

P.S. Here's a link to a good webpage about run-on sentences, and how to rectify them. I've found it's helped me! Run-on Sentences, Comma Splices

DUUUUUUUDE. I have that long-sentence problem, too. Microsoft Word gets really pissed off at me...lol...To me, it just doesn't do justice to break up a sentence if you're trying to get something -- urgency, intensity, etc -- across, you want it all there like BAM BAM BAM BAM!! Not "Bam. Bam bam. Bam." Know what I mean? However no one else has ever told me I use run-ons so maybe I'm being overly self-critical.



Therapy's working, folks. LOL

 

[Sunnie]

I iknow what you mean, but I've seen it done. It's usually more acceptable in a 'telling' part of a story than when you're in live action, where it does tend to ruin the mood.

I've seen it done in dialogue too, where it kind of jumps out of you, but is effective in conveying the idea of someone muttering under their breath. Patrick O'Brian does this kind of thing. So does Jane Austin. It has a distinct nineteenth-century feel to it, though.

---dr.M.

While I agree that parenthetical (great word, I love it -- say it out loud) phrases should NEVER be used in live action writing.... How distracting is it to read something like "He furiously pounded at her pussy (and he really liked it)." I mean come on.

However, in narration or storytelling I'm rather fond of parenthesis, to indicate little side-thoughts (as I have many of those.....as indicated.....sorry.). It helps to get little pieces in where they wouldn't fit anywhere else, I guess.

 

[minsue]

While I agree that parenthetical (great word, I love it -- say it out loud) phrases should NEVER be used in live action writing.... How distracting is it to read something like "He furiously pounded at her pussy (and he really liked it)." I mean come on.

However, in narration or storytelling I'm rather fond of parenthesis, to indicate little side-thoughts (as I have many of those.....as indicated.....sorry.). It helps to get little pieces in where they wouldn't fit anywhere else, I guess.

I wonder if there is a twelve-step program out there (for people like us, I mean...well, you knew what I meant...right?).

 

[Sunnie]

lol, I hope so , cause we're an editor's nightmare, for sure.

That's why I don't bother with them. I can take criticism, OK, but I can't stand somebody trying to re-write my shit for me. There's a method to my madness, I promise!

 

[kiwiwolf]

Overuse of the semi colon. WSO pointed it out to me when she edited my last submission.

I also have this nasty habit of writing for too long at one stretch. I get in the groove and just can't seem to stop. The result is decent stguff at the beginning but sheer crap towards the end. An editing nightmare.

Lou I read some of your stuff yesterday and loved it. Very hot work.

 

[Liar]

Ok, I confess.

I write onomatopoetic dialouge. (And I have no idea how that onoma-word is really spelled.)
I am also a dialouge pacer. I use the dreaded '...', made up sounds, cut off words, you name it, to make the speech 'sound' like in my head.

Have written lines like this:
"Wh...uh...whatthefuck? Noooo way! Nononono no that, is just...so...wrong."

I don't even have the common sense to see what is wrong with that. I've heard people condemn this way of writing speech, you know, the way some people actually talk. So far I haven't heard a good explanation why though.

#L