Backlash (followup to light thread)

[Colleen Thomas]

JERUSALEM - Russia's foreign minister welcomed Israel's offer of help in combating militant groups on Monday, saying Russia needs to be more effective in fighting terror after last week's deadly hostage school standoff.

While showing willingness to work with Israel against militants, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said any counter-terrorism alliance would have to include Arab countries — in a nod to Russia's traditional allies in the region.

"We appreciate the very strong readiness of the Israeli people to help Russia at this hour and this will certainly strengthen the counterterrorist coalition these days," Lavrov said.

"We certainly are taking into account the need to be more effective," he told reporters during a visit to President Moshe Katsav.

In a meeting with Israeli opposition leader Shimon Peres, Lavrov said terrorism is one of the biggest challenges facing the international community.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites), in a telephone call to Russian President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) on Sunday, proposed expanded intelligence coordination between the two countries.

However, Lavrov was careful to point out that Israel was one of several Middle Eastern countries with which Russia coordinated on security issues, including Saudi Arabia, Syria and other Arab states.

"Terrorism doesn't have any nationalities," he said. "I believe the key to the solution of the problem is to bring all countries to fight terror and I can assure you that in addition to our very close counterterrorist cooperation with Israel we have similar counterterrorist cooperation with Arab countries."

News of the hostage-taking at the school in southern Russia, in which more than 350 were killed — nearly half of them children — resonated in Israel, where about one million people, or one-sixth of the population, immigrated from the former Soviet Union.

Since the Sept. 11, 2001, attack on U.S. targets, the Israeli government has portrayed its own battle with Palestinian militants as part of a larger global war against terrorism. Palestinians say attacks by militants on Israeli civilians should be seen in the context of Israel's 37-year occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip (news - web sites)

Lavrov arrived Sunday evening from Egypt for a one-day visit to Israel, part of a Mideast tour that will also take in Lebanon and Syria. Later Monday he was scheduled to meet Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom.

Israeli government officials said Lavrov's visit was set up long before the latest wave of militant violence in Russia. But following the school siege, a suicide bombing and the Aug. 24 bombing of two Russian passenger planes, the subject of a combined international counterterrorist offensive moved to the top of the agenda, they said.

About 450 people have been killed in Russia over the past two weeks in violence that appears to be tied to Russia's conflict in Chechnya (news - web sites). Some Russian and Israeli officials, however, have linked the attacks to the broader phenomenon of Islamic militancy.

Israeli officials said they would voice concerns to Lavrov about Syria's support for Palestinian militants.

Israel has accused Syria of involvement in a suicide bombing last week that killed 16 people in the Israeli city of Beersheba. Lavrov heads for the Syrian capital Monday evening.

------

There are a lot of ways Russia could have responded to the terrorist attacks in their country, but this one is perhaps the shrewdist of them all. Russia has long been viewed as a friend of Arabs in the mideast. Seeing one of their staunchest allies, strengthening ties with their most hated foes will no doubt be sending a powerful message to Arab leaders, both political and religious.

When terrorist outrages push the Russians to strengthen ties with Israel, no matter what else, it has to be viewed as counter productive to Arab statesmen and Islamic religious leaders alike. If those leaders draw the logical conclusion that Islamic militants are doing irreperable harm to their interests, then you may finally see those governments who have turned a blind eye to the militants in their midst taking a stand.

The statements of those few quoted in the earlier article must seem phophetic today and it is to be hoped that their words now have resonance beyond being a departure from buissiness as usual.

Terrorism is gloabal and to defeat it, you must have a global effort. The Russians are sending a very clear message today, a message that means significantly more coming from them than it does from us in the mideast.

It is to be hoped that the meassage has tangible results.

-Colly

 

[rgraham666]

As hopeful as this is, Colleen, I don't think we'll ever defeat terrorism, any more than we can defeat crime.

There are too many sick, twisted and desperate individuals out there for either to be bought completely to an end.

And I think war is a bad metaphor for battling terrorism. Better would be to regard it as a disease. Remove the causes, limit the spread, reduce the habitat of the carriers. We'll never be rid of disease, but here in the West we have managed to keep it from affecting our lives too much.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

As hopeful as this is, Colleen, I don't think we'll ever defeat terrorism, any more than we can defeat crime.

There are too many sick, twisted and desperate individuals out there for either to be bought completely to an end.

And I think war is a bad metaphor for battling terrorism. Better would be to regard it as a disease. Remove the causes, limit the spread, reduce the habitat of the carriers. We'll never be rid of disease, but here in the West we have managed to keep it from affecting our lives too much.

I realize that an ultimate end to terrorism is unlikely or at best outside of the foreseeable future. But even using your illness analogy smallpox was eventually eradicated.

It took a global efforst, adequate funding, a will to see it done, and the support of almost the entire world, but it was done.

To carry on with the illness analogy, smallpox could never have been eradicated if a country or region, where the disease was endemic had refused to join the world in fighting it. With an incubator area and a resident population in whom the disease could grow it would still be a threat to ravage the world today.

The middle east is an incubator region for terrorism. It has all the neccessary prerequisites to keep churning out the "disease" indefintely. For a long time now, the countries and leaders in this region have refused to sign on with the rest of the world and combat the disease. If that changes, and they sign on and lend their considerable authority, then the hope of a "cure" is so much brighter.

Militant islam is one of the prime factors in international terrorism. While secular authority can do a great deal to slow the terrorists in the mid east, it is unargueablely Islam itself that holds the key. As long as liberal, moderate and even conservative clerics don't condemn the prostitution of their religion as a cover for politically motivated violence, it won't stop. If those clerics stand up and with a unified voice, dispute the interpretations of the Koran that the terrorists employ, it will do much to slow the recuritment of new terrorists.

Nothing can guarentee there isn't another Ossama Bin Ladin waiting in the wings. No amount of preparation and preaching can stop a demogouge from swaying a few to his cause. But if the world, and the honored leaders of your religion are saying very strongly that he is wrong, or even heretical, his influence is far diminished.

Recent developments are hopeful. But hopeful only. My more pragmatic side would easily argue that this too will pass, but hope is there.

Perhaps I am reaching. It is very possible that I am grasping at straws. But I have to look for something hopeful, I have to find something in this tragedy that offers hope it won't be repreated, else I would go insane at the randomness, stupidity and pain.

-Colly

 

[minsue]

Perhaps I am reaching. It is very possible that I am grasping at straws. But I have to look for something hopeful, I have to find something in this tragedy that offers hope it won't be repreated, else I would go insane at the randomness, stupidity and pain.

-Colly

Keep reaching, keep grasping, and keep hoping. Otherwise, the only thing left is accepting and that will destroy us all.

 

[Lisa Denton]

I think this is still on topic. Has anyone heard anything yet about possible retaliation, uh, I am thinking if they find someone or something to strike back at they will do so with a vengeance immediately. With almost global support. I realize they are still grieving and shocked but am a little surprised at hearing nothing about this.

 

[minsue]

I think this is still on topic. Has anyone heard anything yet about possible retaliation, uh, I am thinking if they find someone or something to strike back at they will do so with a vengeance immediately. With almost global support. I realize they are still grieving and shocked but am a little surprised at hearing nothing about this.

Do you think they would give advance warning?

(I just realized how that reads. It's an honest question, not a criticism of your post)

 

[Lisa Denton]

Do you think they would give advance warning?

(I just realized how that reads. It's an honest question, not a criticism of your post)

I didn't take it as criticism and yes, I think they would probably say who and what they are going after and what they will do to anyone aiding them.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I think this is still on topic. Has anyone heard anything yet about possible retaliation, uh, I am thinking if they find someone or something to strike back at they will do so with a vengeance immediately. With almost global support. I realize they are still grieving and shocked but am a little surprised at hearing nothing about this.

They face something of the same thing we faced after 9/11. They have the military capability to strike back, but where or who to stike is problematic at best. Unfortuneatly terrorists don't all stay at the Sucide jockey hotel. They tend to be secretive and in most cases merge with the general population. Striking back becomes much more a question of intelligence (informational ) than military might.

There will ikely be a response. I would suspect it will be a low intensity response though, either rounding up the usual suspects or a strike at the best target their intelligence services give them. The other option would be a fullscale operation in Chechneya and I think Putin realizes that would be counter productive.

After 9/11 the U.S. had a great deal of international goodwill and for better or worse, it was mostly squandered. I suspect the russians will have learned from our mistakes and will not act so rashly.

-Colly

 

[minsue]

After 9/11 the U.S. had a great deal of international goodwill and for better or worse, it was mostly squandered. I suspect the russians will have learned from our mistakes and will not act so rashly.

-Colly

One can only hope.

 

[Lisa Denton]

They face something of the same thing we faced after 9/11. They have the military capability to strike back, but where or who to stike is problematic at best. Unfortuneatly terrorists don't all stay at the Sucide jockey hotel. They tend to be secretive and in most cases merge with the general population. Striking back becomes much more a question of intelligence (informational ) than military might.

There will ikely be a response. I would suspect it will be a low intensity response though, either rounding up the usual suspects or a strike at the best target their intelligence services give them. The other option would be a fullscale operation in Chechneya and I think Putin realizes that would be counter productive.

After 9/11 the U.S. had a great deal of international goodwill and for better or worse, it was mostly squandered. I suspect the russians will have learned from our mistakes and will not act so rashly.

-Colly

Yes, I doubt they would do anything like the afganistan thing we did. I thought I saw something just as the siege was over, a name of some terrorist leader they thought was responsible for ordering it. It was vague and I haven't heard anything else. I was thinking if they tie him to it they would like put a reward, a huge reward, on his head. Dead or alive, preferrably dead.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Yes, I doubt they would do anything like the afganistan thing we did. I thought I saw something just as the siege was over, a name of some terrorist leader they thought was responsible for ordering it. It was vague and I haven't heard anything else. I was thinking if they tie him to it they would like put a reward, a huge reward, on his head. Dead or alive, preferrably dead.

Russia has a long history, a great deal of it's recent history is the history of the soviet union. Forthright discussion of internal security measures is not something they have a lot of experience with. Details will tend to be very fuzzy for years to come I think.

-Colly

 

[nushu2]

If any nation knows something about fighting terrorism, it's Israel. Behind the gates and fences, it seems the most secure place on the planet. On the other side of the gates and at them is a different story. Certainly not a way I would choose to live.

 

[Guest]

This thread is bullshit.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

This thread is bullshit.

Considering the number of bullshit threads you have started, I will have to give that value judgement some weight

-Colly

 

[minsue]

Considering the number of bullshit threads you have started, I will have to give that value judgement some weight

-Colly

 

[Lucifer_Carroll]

Terrorism and islamicness

As much as I believe this thread and its previous show great strides toward the fighting of terrorism, it's important to notice that while Islamic nations are currently holding a vast majority of the fuckers who call themselves freedom fighters, they are not the sole majority.

The IRA, the various right-wing groups, a couple of neo-nazi movements and punks, all commit acts of moralless terrorism.

The Chechnens top the list easily with their taking over of the day care, but their second rival is American Right-Wing groups whose Timothy McVeigh blew up the day care center of a federal building. In distant third are the Palestinians with their targeting of innocent civilians as well as IRA for sheer persistence and poorly chosen targets. Al-Queda is a bit down the list which proves well that humanity can sink lower and we should be doing everything we can to defeat the type of ignorance that can be molded into this sadistic and suicidal hate.

"A book shall be the candle that drives away the dark" -paraphrasing someone famous, forgot his/her name.