AwkwardMD and Omenainen Review Thread

[joy_of_cooking]

https://literotica.com/s/the-summoned-help

I'll start by saying this will be the third story of mine you've read, so is totally understand if you wanted to give others a chance at the limited service you provide (for which, thank you).

But if you have the time, I'd like to come back to something that stuck with me after my last review: Every observation reveals something about the observer as well as the observee.

In "The Summoned Help," I tried to use this principle to write my first story not only with characters but driven by characters. I had a very observant MMC, because the point of this story was originally the slow revelation of the FMC's nature and abilities. But I noticed how I could use the MMC's observations, as you pointed out, to characterize him as well.

My goal was to establish the MMC's character as someone who would not accept the direction he saw his employer going, such that it made sense when he pivoted from "Mr. Cucchiara and I were cast from the same mold. We'd die in harness." to "I'm retiring anyway." a page later.

This story is a first for me in another way: it has supporting characters. The others are minor and largely stereotypes---the sassy prostitute with a soft side, the weary crime boss who can't get out, the callow heir in over his head---but I tried to make them at least stereotypes rather than blanks or (as in my previous stories) completely nonexistent.

So how'd I do? Am I getting my characters across? Do they make sense? Where could I do more? (Or less?)

 

[AwkwardMD]

@joy_of_cooking
Link

Round three! Starting off strong! There’s a lot to like here, and when I finished it my first thought was honestly just to say “You don’t need our help anymore.” The Summoned Help is intimidatingly good. The storytelling is delightful. The slow reveal of Jane’s true nature was well paced against the backdrop of this whole other mob plot that reminded me of Ghost Dog. I don’t know if that was an influence, but I love that movie.

I don’t think it hurt you to lean on stereotypes for your supporting cast. There’s a tradeoff between depth and length when it comes to short stories like these. In order to add more detail, you have to make it longer, and that can mess with the pacing. Pacing goes hand in hand with your plot where every plot has a sweet spot of length, a range at which it is best unfolded, and you don’t want to mess with all of that so that your tertiary characters stand out better. It’s one thing to have cardboard cutouts in the main characters, and something quite different to have background characters who fill out the cast that a reader can understand through “cultural reference points” (a much nicer way of saying stereotype). Certainly, none of them are harmful stereotypes.

I really enjoyed the way you used observations to flesh out Joe. He was interesting and complex. I completely understood him, and was right there with him. I thought the choice to have him call a prostitute to learn was a nuanced choice that said a lot about him. His internal narration was coherent and cohesive. He was fantastic. A triumph.

This small story, Joe’s story, was so interesting that we became curious about Jane’s story. We bought into the world, and were left wondering who and what she is, who is the guy who’s pimping her around, what are the motivations behind these, where is she coming from and where does she end up? Is this the cosmic fight between good and evil? Where are the rest of the chapters for this novel? This is undoubtedly a good thing.


The bad news is that Jane isn’t the triumph that Joe is. In other places in this thread, and other reviews, I’ve prescribed a rule (for new authors) against writing gods, demi-gods, AI, and ghosts, and my reasoning is that it’s hard to write an experience that is really far removed from the human experience. Now, I should add the caveat that this is a rule I break, but I only break it when I think I’ve done my due diligence on what this other experience would really be like.

I should also add that Jane only really doesn’t make sense when you stop to think about her. The story is paced quickly enough, and the reveals happen slowly enough, that during the reading we are questioning none of this. We’re rolling along, learning new details as Joe is learning them, and it’s fine.

It’s only afterwards that some things fall apart, and “whether that’s even a real problem worth fixing” is entirely debatable. Stroker stories are often written and conceived as being disposable. You’re gonna read this once, get off, and move on with your life, and that’s all I want. I think you have more ambition for this story, wanting it to be something people read over and over again. I think it’s easily complex and interesting enough that people will want to read it again, and you are easily a talented enough author to put out work after work with that level of complexity, but you’re allowed to invest your art with whatever level of depth you feel is appropriate.

I don’t know what Jane is, and I don’t know if you have a real backstory laid out in your head, but I don’t think she makes sense. She doesn’t just feed on people, she eats them. Ergo, people are food for her. Why would she befriend them? Why would she be so polite to them? Why would she look like one? Why would she have sex with one? Why does she have compatible parts? Why would she be jealous when Joe hires a prostitute to learn oral sex? If she was jealous, why would her initial reaction not be to go and eat this rival love interest?

Why is she a “good monster?” Why wouldn’t she kill Joe when he learns too much about her? Her very existence is threatened by too much knowledge about her. As dangerous as she is, the wrong people (or too many people) finding out about her would cause serious problems. Or at least it should, because otherwise nothing is stopping her from eating the entire world.

In each of these cases, the answer seems to be ‘that’s the lube that makes the plot frictionless’, and that’s not ideal, especially because I think you could have fixed literally all of this by having Jane be a vampire. In most vampire lore, the vampires want to blend in because they’re not that much stronger than humans. They want to blend in, and they want to feed on them, so they have pheromones that cause attraction (which makes the sex much more understandable).

Their features are alluring. They were human until recently (usually), so their actions/motivations/behavior is all very rooted in humanity, in socially acceptable behavior. You could still make Jane[vampire] very dangerous, very lethal, and you’d simply need to lean on Joe’s body disposal resources a bit more. (Plus, I just don’t think that “finding the body” is all that big a concern for criminals at this level. If someone goes missing, you wouldn’t spend very long looking for them before you would just assume that they’re not going to be found, so Jane’s very specific method of body removal is, at best, tangentially useful.)

The other way to make Jane make more sense would’ve been to ditch the sex. The story didn’t need it to be this story, or to be a good story, and in a way it felt like it was stapled on only to make this an erotic story. Also it’s worth pointing out that for all Jane’s taking initiative and showing jealousy she then gives up pursuing Joe with no reason and no consequences. This might make sense if she was hooking up with Joe for breeding purposes, but then you have her say that she’s sterile. Now, she could be lying of course, but that also doesn’t make much sense.

Then again, a thought of Joe as a baby daddy to a nestful of little monsters has some allure.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

I thought the choice to have him call a prostitute to learn was a nuanced choice that said a lot about him.

Interesting! What did you think it said about him? (I put that scene in because I wanted to practice writing a character who spoke AAVE.)

I don’t know what Jane is, and I don’t know if you have a real backstory laid out in your head, but I don’t think she makes sense.

This is the same problem you pointed out with Her First Foot Boy. My ending was weaker than it could have been because I had a longer arc in mind for Lily and Benjamin. Only my planned sequels are now languishing in my drafts folder because I have the attention span of a gnat.

In Jane's case, the sequels would have revealed that she's a bit player in a supernatural gladiator thing staged for the amusement of beings as far beyond her as she is beyond us. None of her battles make any sense because they're just the spectacle of the week.

She can manifest in a variety of bodies. She equips them with human-compatible genitalia and taste buds and so on because she likes to cosplay humanity during her down time. It's like a business traveler tacking on a vacation day to check out the local attractions.

(Her story has a happy-ish ending. She's accidentally summoned by a kid with a rough home life. She becomes his guardian definitely-not-an-angel. Her uncharacteristic good deed catches the right beings' attention, and they offer her a place among them.)

I don't suppose you have any advice for leaving stories open to continuation without this unfortunate failure mode of earlier installments having loose threads when read alone?

The other way to make Jane make more sense would’ve been to ditch the sex. The story didn’t need it to be this story, or to be a good story, and in a way it felt like it was stapled on only to make this an erotic story.

Wait until you read Jane's guardian angel chapter. (If I ever finish it.) The MMC is under-age for the first 30k words!

you could have fixed literally all of this by having Jane be a vampire

Vampires Don't Wait Tables
He's a cryptid-obsessed cook. She's just a waiter. Right?

In most vampire lore, the vampires want to blend in because they’re not that much stronger than humans.

(Hong's the vampire.)

Mid-afternoon, I ask her the question that's been on my mind all day. "Hong, how worried should I be about"---I can't quite bring myself to say it---"someone like you randomly grabbing me off the bus?"

"How worried are you about a mugger randomly grabbing you off the bus?" she asks rhetorically.

"Muggers are afraid of getting caught." But even as I say that I remember why she killed that couple. They were attracting attention. "I guess you are too."

"We are," Hong confirms. "A city bus is probably the safest place you'll ever be. Don't ever start driving to work."

"What's wrong with driving?"

"You're much more likely to die in a car crash than a vampire attack."

I roll my eyes. It seemed she was done being serious. "Okay, Hong. I'll keep that in mind."

They were human until recently (usually), so their actions/motivations/behavior is all very rooted in humanity

(This is before the narrator figures out that Hong's a vampire.)

Soon Hong has inserted herself neatly into the void I left when I started working the lunch shift. She picks my nephews up from school and helps them with their homework and cooks dinner for us all. Then she sits with my grandparents and they chat in Shanghainese. I try to tell her she doesn't have to do all that, but she says she enjoys it.

"You really like kids, don't you?" I ask.

"Not only the kids." She gestures vaguely, looking wistful. "All of this. Your whole family. Having a family."

"You never talk about your own family." I don't understand how I haven't noticed until now, but she's never mentioned anyone. No parents, no siblings, no children. Not even friends, really, beyond the passing acquaintances at work.

"Not much to talk about anymore. They're all long dead." She shrugs.

Shit. "I'm sorry. I didn't know."

"Oh, don't feel bad. It's ancient history." She laughs at her own joke, then becomes serious again. "Thanks for letting me..." She trails off and gestures again.

"Cook and watch the kids and keep my grandparents company?" I ask. "You're welcome."

I feel better after that conversation. It's a question that's been nagging me, ever since our argument. Hong is...well, perfect. Way out of my league. I've been wondering what she sees in me, why she came back, and now I finally understand. It's not about me, although we do kiss and cuddle and she seems to enjoy all of that.

No, it's my whole family. She wants people to come home to. We fill a hole in her life, as much as she fills a hole in ours.

Maybe it has to do with her mysterious skin condition. It must really cut down on her social life, to be essentially housebound until after sunset. In the summer, that might be as late as 8:30, and then she'd be due at work a couple of hours later.

Am I sad to realize that she probably doesn't love me as much as I love her?

Oddly, no. I've always suspected. In a way, I even feel better. It puts us on a more equal footing than I thought we had. I know what I'm bringing to the table now.

Anyway, thanks for the review! Lots to think about.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Honestly, it sounds like a lot of our questions have answers that you simply haven't gotten to, which is not your fault. That's not a problem. If you do have plans, even tentative ones, to expand that story or the universe it exists within, then I retract our complaints about Jane and will patiently await that story.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

If you do have plans, even tentative ones, to expand that story or the universe it exists within, then I retract our complaints about Jane and will patiently await that story.

Well, except for this:

Only my planned sequels are now languishing in my drafts folder because I have the attention span of a gnat.

T-T

 

[happyyy_]

Hello,
I would be interested in receiving a review for The Orc King. I usually write high fantasy, so this is a bit different than my usual stuff, and one of my first attempts at erotica so I am not sure where my weaknesses are/how much they have changed. In my nonerotica writing group, the feedback I get on my writing is that it is confusing/doesn't make sense, but I don't think that's a problem here (hopefully).

 

[Omenainen]

@happyyy_
Link

Hello and welcome to Lit! Writing erotica is a great hobby, and from what I’ve understood, compared to writing other types of content on other sites it’s easier to gather a readership here. There’s also many different paths to success on Lit. Some people find their niche and churn out story after story of variations on a theme, on their particular kink, and the appreciative readers will find them eventually. Some (like myself) bounce from category to category, curious to see what we can come up with to fit the kink. Some focus on hitting the hot buttons of some category, often resulting in good statistics (views, scores, what have you). There’s no one size fits all.

From your writing, it’s obvious this is not the first story you’ve ever written. The prose is competently executed. Your descriptive writing is strong, which will serve you well in writing fantasy (or anything, really, certainly the sexy bits in any erotic story). From your comments it’s easy to deduce that you have found an appreciative audience. Well done! If you continue to do what you’re doing, you’re going to cultivate a readership and get positive feedback.

I have a few points to raise. They’re partially personal preferences in that many people on Lit do things against these guidelines, and they’re successful (on some ways of measuring) nonetheless, so they are by no means some kind of golden rules set in stone. Just some aspects you might think about going forward. (Also “gaining success” is not a goal that is very sensible, I notice I’ve talked a lot about “success on Lit” so far and that’s not necessarily a goal anyone should strive for. The number one advice I think anyone can give is to write what you want to write for your own artistic fulfillment. That’s the most important thing. I talk about Lit specifics so much because you’re new here and might not have encountered all this info before.)

Series. On Lit, many readers hate series, because the site is littered with unfinished stories that the authors have drifted away from for whatever reason. There are some, like myself, who won’t start reading a series before it’s demonstrably finished. There are things more annoying than getting invested in a story that then cuts off abruptly, but right now I can’t think of many. One of the reasons authors sometimes walk away from their series is that they don’t have the whole story before they start publishing: they wing it one chapter at the time, chasing the dopamine bumps that come from a good comment, then write themselves into a corner and just give up trying to wrap up the loose ends. Others just keep on writing unceasingly, churning out chapter after chapter with no intention to ever stop. None of this is wrong per se, but just to let you know that it can affect your readership.

It’s difficult to review something that is not the whole story. How can we say anything about characterization or storytelling when we don’t know where you’re going with this? This is chapter one of who knows how many. Nothing in this first chapter gives any hints as to what this story might actually be about. Now, in erotica, it’s perfectly viable to write short porn-like strokers with little to no plot and mostly sex. If that’s your aim then there’s nothing wrong with it, but that kind of content doesn’t lend itself easily to writing a series. For a series you should have a story to tell, and for that end you would do well to include some sense of the overarching story or themes from the beginning. Each chapter should have its internal arc that serves the overall story. If there is no bigger story, writing standalone stories, situated in the same world and maybe with the same characters, would be one way to go.

Writing fantasy. My opinion is that when writing fantasy or sci-fi, it’s important to think about what you’re saying. Creating new worlds usually says something about ours, or something about something. I think this story, as beautifully written as it is, lacks a voice. What’s different in this story compared to all the other “princesses ravished by orc kings” stories? What is it exactly you’re saying about princesses, or orcs? I know that it’s chapter one and maybe there’ll be revelations in chapter 22, and also that not every story needs a deeper meaning. I just think that there should be some kind of a reason to come up with a whole new world, that you should give things some kind of a personal spin. Including the juicy bits doesn’t excuse you from having a real story around them.

Circling back, welcome to Lit! There’s lots of good information here on the forums, albeit buried in a lot of muck. Some people are nice, some are assholes, many are veterans of publishing on this site so it’s a good place to ask if you want to know more. I hope you have a long and fulfilling career on this site.

 

[happyyy_]

@happyyy_
Link

Hello and welcome to Lit! Writing erotica is a great hobby, and from what I’ve understood, compared to writing other types of content on other sites it’s easier to gather a readership here. There’s also many different paths to success on Lit. Some people find their niche and churn out story after story of variations on a theme, on their particular kink, and the appreciative readers will find them eventually. Some (like myself) bounce from category to category, curious to see what we can come up with to fit the kink. Some focus on hitting the hot buttons of some category, often resulting in good statistics (views, scores, what have you). There’s no one size fits all.

From your writing, it’s obvious this is not the first story you’ve ever written. The prose is competently executed. Your descriptive writing is strong, which will serve you well in writing fantasy (or anything, really, certainly the sexy bits in any erotic story). From your comments it’s easy to deduce that you have found an appreciative audience. Well done! If you continue to do what you’re doing, you’re going to cultivate a readership and get positive feedback.

I have a few points to raise. They’re partially personal preferences in that many people on Lit do things against these guidelines, and they’re successful (on some ways of measuring) nonetheless, so they are by no means some kind of golden rules set in stone. Just some aspects you might think about going forward. (Also “gaining success” is not a goal that is very sensible, I notice I’ve talked a lot about “success on Lit” so far and that’s not necessarily a goal anyone should strive for. The number one advice I think anyone can give is to write what you want to write for your own artistic fulfillment. That’s the most important thing. I talk about Lit specifics so much because you’re new here and might not have encountered all this info before.)

Series. On Lit, many readers hate series, because the site is littered with unfinished stories that the authors have drifted away from for whatever reason. There are some, like myself, who won’t start reading a series before it’s demonstrably finished. There are things more annoying than getting invested in a story that then cuts off abruptly, but right now I can’t think of many. One of the reasons authors sometimes walk away from their series is that they don’t have the whole story before they start publishing: they wing it one chapter at the time, chasing the dopamine bumps that come from a good comment, then write themselves into a corner and just give up trying to wrap up the loose ends. Others just keep on writing unceasingly, churning out chapter after chapter with no intention to ever stop. None of this is wrong per se, but just to let you know that it can affect your readership.

It’s difficult to review something that is not the whole story. How can we say anything about characterization or storytelling when we don’t know where you’re going with this? This is chapter one of who knows how many. Nothing in this first chapter gives any hints as to what this story might actually be about. Now, in erotica, it’s perfectly viable to write short porn-like strokers with little to no plot and mostly sex. If that’s your aim then there’s nothing wrong with it, but that kind of content doesn’t lend itself easily to writing a series. For a series you should have a story to tell, and for that end you would do well to include some sense of the overarching story or themes from the beginning. Each chapter should have its internal arc that serves the overall story. If there is no bigger story, writing standalone stories, situated in the same world and maybe with the same characters, would be one way to go.

Writing fantasy. My opinion is that when writing fantasy or sci-fi, it’s important to think about what you’re saying. Creating new worlds usually says something about ours, or something about something. I think this story, as beautifully written as it is, lacks a voice. What’s different in this story compared to all the other “princesses ravished by orc kings” stories? What is it exactly you’re saying about princesses, or orcs? I know that it’s chapter one and maybe there’ll be revelations in chapter 22, and also that not every story needs a deeper meaning. I just think that there should be some kind of a reason to come up with a whole new world, that you should give things some kind of a personal spin. Including the juicy bits doesn’t excuse you from having a real story around them.

Circling back, welcome to Lit! There’s lots of good information here on the forums, albeit buried in a lot of muck. Some people are nice, some are assholes, many are veterans of publishing on this site so it’s a good place to ask if you want to know more. I hope you have a long and fulfilling career on this site.

Thank you so much for this!! I think a major issue I struggle with is pacing and fleshing out ideas from the start. I like to set everything up world-building and character-wise, and then get into the meat of the story... which can take some chapters to get to and definitely isn't ideal. I think you are 100% right- weaving in the themes and overarching issues from the jump would make my storytelling a lot stronger. I guess the best way to tackle that would be better planning and first drafting before publishing anything.
Even my non-erotica stories suffer from this fate lol. I have a story I've written 50k+ words on 3 or 4 times, and every time I waste the first few (really 5-10) chapters trying to set everything up before getting into the themes and major ideas. I guess I am still figuring it out lol.

 

[AwkwardMD]

@happyyy_

I've been writing since I was 16. I remember writing this story in an afternoon, during an assembly in high school, and I *really* haven't stopped writing since then. I enjoyed the process, and I enjoyed the results, but I very quickly ran into walls where my ambition outpaced my talent level. I wrote a few short stories in my teens, and then I didn't finish another story until I was about 35. I started a ton of stories, one of which I worked on for 10 years, but I'd either get bogged down in trying to edit them to perfection or I'd lose track of the original point and keep adding new ideas until the thing was unrecognizable. The first major story I finished after this decades-long drought was my first erotic story, and that took me 2 years to complete.

Two things happened that changed my process. The first was that, when I was doing a post mortem on my first erotic story, Ballad, I realized that I was my own worst enemy. The writing I would do first, initially, was fine, and it was the perfection-chasing that killed me. I'd write something, but then I'd go back and rewrite it, and edit it, and rewrite the edit, and it was hard to maintain forward progress if all I could think about was scene I'd just finished. Did I forget any details? Did I achieve everything I could have? Was that character the best POV character? What if I rewrote it from another characters perspective! Would that allow the reveal to impact more fully?

I wanted to try and break myself of this cycle, so for my next story I set a goal that was not unlike NaNoWriMo; Write one chapter a week, no editing, publish it as I go, and finish it before March (this was in late January, at the time). I gave myself the prompt of "Funny, sexy Blade Runner" and started writing. The results of this experiment was a story with some inconsistencies, yes some mistakes, but literally nobody but me noticed. I completed a story in a few weeks that I'm proud of.

I learned how to trust myself, and I never looked back.

The second thing that happened was a little bit less of a singular event and more something that I absorbed and finally processed. I love the movie Unbreakable. For a long time, it was my favorite film. I devoured it, watched it over and over, and when it came out on DVD I pored over the extras. I can't remember anymore if it was in the features OR if it was in a commentary track for the film, but in it Bruce Willis talks about how he changed his approach to acting. He started to realize that he didn't need to do everything on set in order to sell an emotion.

Imagine, in your mind, Willis' facial expression at any given moment in a Die Hard film, and compare that to any frame you might find of Unbreakable. He's doing less. He's doing so, so, so much less acting, and that leaves room for the lighting to tell a story, or the score, or the framing of the camera, or the other actors in the scene.

I became obsessed with efficiency, and how to accomplish the most amount of storytelling with the least amount of work. I tried to figure out how to compress things. How to use a short conversation to establish both speaking characters, establish the setting, establish their parents. I learned how to use character A describing character B to show who character A is on the inside. What their values are. What their interests are. I learned how to use one scene to accomplish three goals, if not more.

After a while, these things became second nature. My writing now is dense with layers, but because of my nearly-manic drive for stories to move forward the pacing doesn't suffer for it.

The above is my authorial journey. Yours will be different, but similar results can be achieved through any number of pathways. There are some good threads on writing in the Author's Hangout, where people talk about their processes and their influences. Borrow what feels authentic to you. Explore and experiment.

 

[happyyy_]

I became obsessed with efficiency, and how to accomplish the most amount of storytelling with the least amount of work. I tried to figure out how to compress things. How to use a short conversation to establish both speaking characters, establish the setting, establish their parents. I learned how to use character A describing character B to show who character A is on the inside. What their values are. What their interests are. I learned how to use one scene to accomplish three goals, if not more.

I learned how to trust myself, and I never looked back.

Thank you for sharing this. Your struggle is so relatable! In my non-lit writing group, I am the only one who seems to struggle with completing things and keeping on track, so it is refreshing (and relieving) to hear how you overcame those hurdles. I am over-ambitious- I am struggling to complete a single story, but also trying to worry about layering in deeper issues. One step at a time! I think this will be my new mantra lol.

Imagine, in your mind, Willis' facial expression at any given moment in a Die Hard film, and compare that to any frame you might find of Unbreakable. He's doing less. He's doing so, so, so much less acting, and that leaves room for the lighting to tell a story, or the score, or the framing of the camera, or the other actors in the scene.

This is such great wisdom. I do find myself rethinking and rehashing !everything! so much. All the extra tell I obsessively add in to make sure everything makes 100% sense and hits every checkpoint I had planned eventually takes away from the best parts of the story. These two lit stories I have planned are pretty low stakes- shorter stories, maybe 11-12 parts. I think I need to embrace the journey and simply focus on completing them over creating the polished finished product on the first try.

Thank you!

 

[b7ffh1]

Hi AMD,

I wrote a new story and I would love your feedback on it.

https://www.literotica.com/s/modest-woman-1984

I know you have reviewed a lot of my stories and I have appreciated your feedback. I feel it has helped me grow as an author, and I love the back and forth discussion after the review (which once had me noting you are the author of the Abu Ghraib of Literotica).

This story is me trying some new things in my genre of stripsearch/forced exposure stories.

I would love your feedback.

Thanks,

B7ffh1

 

[AwkwardMD]

Hi AMD,

I wrote a new story and I would love your feedback on it.

https://www.literotica.com/s/modest-woman-1984

I know you have reviewed a lot of my stories and I have appreciated your feedback. I feel it has helped me grow as an author, and I love the back and forth discussion after the review (which once had me noting you are the author of the Abu Ghraib of Literotica).

This story is me trying some new things in my genre of stripsearch/forced exposure stories.

I would love your feedback.

Thanks,

B7ffh1

Briefly, I have a story set to be published tomorrow that is set in the 80's and is (in part) about a Pastor's daughter. I've been working on it since April. This is spooky.

 

[b7ffh1]

Briefly, I have a story set to be published tomorrow that is set in the 80's and is (in part) about a Pastor's daughter. I've been working on it since April. This is spooky.

Don't tell me it is set in the American South or I will really get spooked

 

[AwkwardMD]

Don't tell me it is set in the American South or I will really get spooked

Oregon, in the Pacific Northwest, but they're fundamentalist Baptists for sure.

 

[b7ffh1]

Oregon, in the Pacific Northwest, but they're fundamentalist Baptists for sure.

Wow, fundamentalist Baptist as well!!!

You could make an argument that parts of Oregon (especially rural, eastern Oregon) probably have a lot in common with the South in terms of culture.

This is really uncanny.

I am now especially looking forward to reading what you think about it.

Fundamentalism, though not named, is a significant part of the mental framework of the characters, and while hopefully anyone can understand and enjoy the story, someone who has some familiarity with fundamentalist Baptists can perhaps pick up on some of the nuances of the characters' thinking and actions that others might not realize the significance of.

I am also looking forward to reading your story tomorrow when it comes out!

 

[ElectricBlue]

Two things happened that changed my process. The first was that, when I was doing a post mortem on my first erotic story, Ballad, I realized that I was my own worst enemy. The writing I would do first, initially, was fine, and it was the perfection-chasing that killed me. I'd write something, but then I'd go back and rewrite it, and edit it, and rewrite the edit, and it was hard to maintain forward progress if all I could think about was scene I'd just finished. .

I remember years ago thinking that, with some of your very earliest stories - the one where you had a fight with someone over the originality of an idea, and I observed the idea wasn't original to either of you, being very close to Olaf Stapledon's Last and First Men - that story comes to mind, and another one a bit later (and better), thinking, I wish MD wouldn't edit herself so much.

You'd written what felt like very spontaneous content, and left it feeling raw, and I thought when she does that, there's real intensity there, real honesty. Then you'd follow such a passage with another that felt worked and worked and reworked to death, and the life had gone out of it.

So it's interesting to see you acknowledge something close to that now.

Keep in mind, with this comment, that I'm a pure pantser and my edit and rework is minimal. Your plotting and edit and rework is completely foreign to me - although I suspect your stories nowadays are far more layered and constructed than mine will ever be. The most structured story I've got is one where each chapter has a different coloured dress, going from red through to violet, with black and white bookends. I thought that was a little bit clever. @Bramblethorn was kind enough to let me use Anjani's red dress in that one (apologies if name is spelt wrong).

 

[Omenainen]

I remember years ago thinking that, with some of your very earliest stories - the one where you had a fight with someone over the originality of an idea, and I observed the idea wasn't original to either of you, being very close to Olaf Stapledon's Last and First Men - that story comes to mind, and another one a bit later (and better), thinking, I wish MD wouldn't edit herself so much.

You'd written what felt like very spontaneous content, and left it feeling raw, and I thought when she does that, there's real intensity there, real honesty. Then you'd follow such a passage with another that felt worked and worked and reworked to death, and the life had gone out of it.

So it's interesting to see you acknowledge something close to that now.

Keep in mind, with this comment, that I'm a pure pantser and my edit and rework is minimal. Your plotting and edit and rework is completely foreign to me - although I suspect your stories nowadays are far more layered and constructed than mine will ever be. The most structured story I've got is one where each chapter has a different coloured dress, going from red through to violet, with black and white bookends. I thought that was a little bit clever. @Bramblethorn was kind enough to let me use Anjani's red dress in that one (apologies if name is spelt wrong).

EB, did you ever read the story I pointed you to a while back? The collaboration of ours where I asked if you can tell which part was written by whom? Because I kind of think this “you’re over-editing yourself” is a bit thick if you can’t even distinguish who’s written the text in the first place. Not that AMD’s would have other people contributing, but still.

I don’t think good flow is about editing. Maybe bad editing can mess with the flow, but then it’s up to good writing to fix it again.

Not that I edit myself much, mind you I used to, when I wasn’t as good as writing well in the first place, in a technical sense. Now I find that my first drafts are usually so good in my own eyes that I don’t feel compelled to mess with them. I suspect this is a function of self-assuredness, or cockiness if you will, and not necessarily that my prose is so genius, but good enough for me is good enough for me.

 

[ElectricBlue]

EB, did you ever read the story I pointed you to a while back? The collaboration of ours where I asked if you can tell which part was written by whom.
Because I kind of think this “you’re over-editing yourself” is a bit thick if you can’t even distinguish who’s written the text in the first place.

You've taken my comment somewhat out of context. It was years ago, when MD first started her solo review thread, where she made it quite clear what her writing method was - stories very "constructed", thick with layering and carefully staged scenes and sequences. She made no secret how she wrote, which included a lot of editing. She's made no secret in the post above, either, that I quoted - "it was the perfection chasing that killed me." She acknowledges it herself.

Around the same time I asked her to review one of my stories, The Floating World. She said some very kind things indeed, but I think, missed the ennui which the story is drenched in. She wanted more plot and story movement, which isn't what the story is about. Her critique did crystalise for me that I write more about mood, not movement. I think many of my stories are more akin to dreams than the traditional three or five stage story arc - they disjoint scenes together, rather than join them. I just thought of that!

My characters had too much walking about for her liking, which also missed the reality moment. The whole first section (three vignettes, and a walk down the street to a road crossing) are recounts - other than one sentence - of real events. And there's no way I unwrite reality to favour plot .

Not that AMD’s would have other people contributing, but still.

I started reading it, and found it overwritten, to be honest. I wonder who wrote the first section?

I don’t think good flow is about editing. Maybe bad editing can mess with the flow, but then it’s up to good writing to fix it again.

I'll agree with you there. I pay a lot attention to the cadence and cascade of my prose during edit, fine-tuning the beat and the flow - but even so, about 95% is there in the first draft. I keep it quite raw.

Not that I edit myself much, mind you I used to, when I wasn’t as good as writing well in the first place, in a technical sense. Now I find that my first drafts are usually so good in my own eyes that I don’t feel compelled to mess with them. I suspect this is a function of self-assuredness, or cockiness if you will, and not necessarily that my prose is so genius, but good enough for me is good enough for me.

Interesting. MD said much about the second part of my story, once it got past the three opening vignettes, that she felt a confidence in the writing, that came through in both characters. She felt that was my confidence as a writer. I think it's more my love for women, but that's something else entirely.

Your writing style sounds much like mine, only with a lot more snow.

 

[Omenainen]

You've taken my comment somewhat out of context. It was years ago, when MD first started her solo review thread, where she made it quite clear what her writing method was - stories very "constructed", thick with layering and carefully staged scenes and sequences. She made no secret how she wrote, which included a lot of editing. She's made no secret in the post above, either, that I quoted - "it was the perfection chasing that killed me." She acknowledges it herself.

So you keep randomly bringing up this thing that happened years before my time. Why do you think that is? I know it's par for the course on these forums that people ruminate the same arguments again, and again, and again, and again. I am however finding this particular one a bit tiresome. What are you waiting for, AMD to go "oh yes EB, you're right, your pantsing medal is in the mail"?

You can write in whatever manner you like. If AMD wanted to write like you, she would've learned that by now.

I guess what I'm trying to say is yes, we've heard you, you can rest easy now.

 

[MediocreAuthor]

Hello,
I would be interested in receiving a review for The Orc King. I usually write high fantasy, so this is a bit different than my usual stuff, and one of my first attempts at erotica so I am not sure where my weaknesses are/how much they have changed. In my nonerotica writing group, the feedback I get on my writing is that it is confusing/doesn't make sense, but I don't think that's a problem here (hopefully).

Okay, so I occasionally offer reviews in this thread, so I hope you find my critique helpful.

---

Wow... I really enjoyed this story. I have a few tiny niggles to mention, but I want you to know that I thought this story was really good.

1) Okay, so the naming conventions used were imperfect. I can accept "The Orc King" as a usual title, or "The Demon King"... but not both. Haha
It just came across as a tiny bit generic. Not a huge issue, but I thought I'd mention it.

2) There was a blend of high, melodramatic language blended with modern "dirty-talk". For example:

"I thought the princess believed she was too good for an orc tongue."

I like this. It sounds like fantasy dialogue.

"Do you wish to cum?"

Ehh... To me, "cum" is a very modern slang, and sounds out of place coming from a fantasy race.

This is a small complaint, but it is worth pointing out, imo. You did an excellent job maintaining stylistic consistency most of the time, so I feel it needs mentioning.

Similarly, your narrative use of the word "pussy" etc, pulls me out of a fantasy mindset. I know that finding synonyms for genitals in erotica is a constant battle, but I thought I'd bring it to your attention. A tiny bit more tonal consistency in that area (again, particularly in the dialogue) would have done wonders.

3) The beginning of the story had a ton of information which I found very interesting, however it was introduced with a teensy but of a lore dump, which isn't generally the best method.

She thinks about the cruelty of the orc's treatment of human trespassers in orc land, for instance. Okay, but imagine how much more poignant that info would be to the reader of you teased it in the opening and then revealed it to us during the heat of the moment.

I can picture a scene of him forcing pleasure upon her, and then she feels a wave of shame as she realizes that she's enjoying the ministrations of a leader who allows his people to murder hers.

Heart-wrenching and delicious.

---

Is that it for complaints? I think so! Now let me gush a bit over things I liked!

1) The four arms. I'll admit, I was a little off-put initially at the idea of so drastically changing a typical fantasy race, but boy did I like the effect it had when things got spicy! Hehe

2) Anyone who has read through my stories knows that I have a love for tales which include fantastic settings featuring NC/R. Yours was right up that alley, and it catered to my personal tastes very well. In that same vein, I want to thank you for not dwelling too heavily on his orcish facial features. I don't have any affinity for male characters with tusks etc, and the way that you had those features become less relevant during the passion was great.

3) Her resistance to the pleasure. Excellent.

4) His unexpected tenderness and care. Excellent-er

5) Most of the in-period dialogue was Aces. I love high-fantasy language in erotica, and with the exception of the few issues mentioned above, I think you nailed it.

Anyway, I don't know how helpful a critique is when it just complements the good stuff, but I really enjoyed this one, and I thought I'd congratulate you on it.

 

[happyyy_]

Okay, so I occasionally offer reviews in this thread, so I hope you find my critique helpful.

---

Wow... I really enjoyed this story. I have a few tiny niggles to mention, but I want you to know that I thought this story was really good.

1) Okay, so the naming conventions used were imperfect. I can accept "The Orc King" as a usual title, or "The Demon King"... but not both. Haha
It just came across as a tiny bit generic. Not a huge issue, but I thought I'd mention it.

2) There was a blend of high, melodramatic language blended with modern "dirty-talk". For example:


I like this. It sounds like fantasy dialogue.

Ehh... To me, "cum" is a very modern slang, and sounds out of place coming from a fantasy race.

This is a small complaint, but it is worth pointing out, imo. You did an excellent job maintaining stylistic consistency most of the time, so I feel it needs mentioning.

Similarly, your narrative use of the word "pussy" etc, pulls me out of a fantasy mindset. I know that finding synonyms for genitals in erotica is a constant battle, but I thought I'd bring it to your attention. A tiny bit more tonal consistency in that area (again, particularly in the dialogue) would have done wonders.

3) The beginning of the story had a ton of information which I found very interesting, however it was introduced with a teensy but of a lore dump, which isn't generally the best method.

She thinks about the cruelty of the orc's treatment of human trespassers in orc land, for instance. Okay, but imagine how much more poignant that info would be to the reader of you teased it in the opening and then revealed it to us during the heat of the moment.

I can picture a scene of him forcing pleasure upon her, and then she feels a wave of shame as she realizes that she's enjoying the ministrations of a leader who allows his people to murder hers.

Heart-wrenching and delicious.

---

Is that it for complaints? I think so! Now let me gush a bit over things I liked!

1) The four arms. I'll admit, I was a little off-put initially at the idea of so drastically changing a typical fantasy race, but boy did I like the effect it had when things got spicy! Hehe

2) Anyone who has read through my stories knows that I have a love for tales which include fantastic settings featuring NC/R. Yours was right up that alley, and it catered to my personal tastes very well. In that same vein, I want to thank you for not dwelling too heavily on his orcish facial features. I don't have any affinity for male characters with tusks etc, and the way that you had those features become less relevant during the passion was great.

3) Her resistance to the pleasure. Excellent.

4) His unexpected tenderness and care. Excellent-er

5) Most of the in-period dialogue was Aces. I love high-fantasy language in erotica, and with the exception of the few issues mentioned above, I think you nailed it.

Anyway, I don't know how helpful a critique is when it just complements the good stuff, but I really enjoyed this one, and I thought I'd congratulate you on it.

wow thank you! I was nervous about going full-tilt into the fantasy language, I wasn't sure if I could pull it off, to be honest. I purposefully didn't get creative with the synonyms, but I see what you mean, and I agree. I will make sure to keep it consistent in the future. There is an inworld reason for Demon/Orc king titles, but I see now how that comes off. Its funny what kinds of things you are blind to in your own writing lol.

She thinks about the cruelty of the orc's treatment of human trespassers in orc land, for instance. Okay, but imagine how much more poignant that info would be to the reader of you teased it in the opening and then revealed it to us during the heat of the moment.

This is a really good point, thank you! I am so bad for info dumping. I need to learn how to layer info better for sure.

1) The four arms. I'll admit, I was a little off-put initially at the idea of so drastically changing a typical fantasy race, but boy did I like the effect it had when things got spicy! Hehe

When I was editing the first chapter I realized 4 arms is probably a really controversial choice... but mannnnn the scenes I have planned! I wasn't sure if my character introduction would work or if it would be super off-putting no matter how I did it. And figuring out how to describe 4 arms is actually so hard??? Not what I expected lol

Thank you so much! I tend to overthink everything, so pointing out what works is very helpful to me because I tend to edit out the good stuff that works just as frequently as the bad stuff.

 

[AwkwardMD]

@b7ffh1
Link

I’m not sure what more to say at this point. This is, by my count, the seventh story you’ve asked me to read.

There is improvement here. You’ve clearly taken some of the conversations we’ve had here to heart, and I think this story is leaps and bounds more complex. I liked your scripture quotations, as they felt like they conveyed the thing you were trying to cover. Clearly you put some time and effort into having your characters justify themselves authentically. I (really) don’t like the kink so there’s a ceiling on how glowing my praise can be that is simply a limitation of my being human, but I respect the progress overall and the work you’ve put into your craft (in what, I assume, is your second or third language?). That’s fucking impressive.

All that being said, after writing the six previous reviews, I think I’m just about tapped out on suggestions to make. The art that you’re creating stands on its own.

 

[b7ffh1]

Thank you for your feedback and for taking the time to review the story, even though that is not your kink (and in fact you really don't like the kink).

Your reviews have really helped me grow as an author and have helped me deepen my perspectives.

My first several stories were almost exclusively focused on the male perspective and the male kink. If I tried to do the female perspective, it came off as very forced.

You advice has pushed me to try to go beyond just formulaic to more complex.

You and Omanainen (in the Cinderella story) helped push me to have the confidence for a third person narrative voice which is a first for me (my previous stories have been in the voice of the husband (almost always) or wife(once) or fairy godmother(once))

The discussion in the Daniella and the Lions story pushed me to see and try capture the kink for the woman, rather than just make her a passive and unwilling victim of male abuse.

With Emily in this story, there is a sense that she has been given a "hall pass" to experience latent kinks (exhibitionism, an almost bdsm style power exchange, sexual touch from someone other than her husband) and she has a certain thrill in being able to experience them although she is very careful frame the experience in her own spiritual language and framework so it does not challenge her self image and self identity. And she emerges not broken but, surprisingly, healed.

(At least that is what I was hoping to convey)

Anyway, although we all will have our own kinks that we are drawn to, because of my interactions with you and your reviews I personally have been enriched in my perspective and writing and given a nudge and confidence to try new things and experiment, and for that I sincerely thank you.

@b7ffh1
Link

I’m not sure what more to say at this point. This is, by my count, the seventh story you’ve asked me to read.

There is improvement here. You’ve clearly taken some of the conversations we’ve had here to heart, and I think this story is leaps and bounds more complex. I liked your scripture quotations, as they felt like they conveyed the thing you were trying to cover. Clearly you put some time and effort into having your characters justify themselves authentically. I (really) don’t like the kink so there’s a ceiling on how glowing my praise can be that is simply a limitation of my being human, but I respect the progress overall and the work you’ve put into your craft (in what, I assume, is your second or third language?). That’s fucking impressive.

All that being said, after writing the six previous reviews, I think I’m just about tapped out on suggestions to make. The art that you’re creating stands on its own.

 

[AwkwardMD]

With Emily in this story, there is a sense that she has been given a "hall pass" to experience latent kinks (exhibitionism, an almost bdsm style power exchange, sexual touch from someone other than her husband) and she has a certain thrill in being able to experience them although she is very careful frame the experience in her own spiritual language and framework so it does not challenge her self image and self identity. And she emerges not broken but, surprisingly, healed.

(At least that is what I was hoping to convey)

This is all comes across in the story. If this was your goal, then kudos.

 

[b7ffh1]

This is all comes across in the story. If this was your goal, then kudos.

Thank you. This was one of the goals for this story when I started it. It was also what I was most worried that I wouldn't be able to get it across in the story. Thank you for confirming that it came across.