AwkwardMD and Omenainen Review Thread

[joy_of_cooking]

I always think about gymnasts who perform a brilliant routine, then blow the whole thing on their dismount. With every story, I tell myself, over and over again, "Stick the landing!"

Oh do you read Neal Stephenson too?

 

[MelissaBaby]

Oh do you read Neal Stephenson too?

The only one I've read is Seveneves.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

The only one I've read is Seveneves.

Anathem is a clearer example of the "Stephenson isn't great at endings" thing. I loved the first half where we were just wandering around this world. The second half where he tried to do a plot and stuff didn't appeal as much.

 

[djrip]

The only one I've read is Seveneves.

That was a great opening to a story! Hope he goes somewhere with it.

Anathem is a clearer example of the "Stephenson isn't great at endings" thing. I loved the first half where we were just wandering around this world. The second half where he tried to do a plot and stuff didn't appeal as much.

I seem to recall Diamond Age just kind of stopping.

 

[MelissaBaby]

That was a great opening to a story! Hope he goes somewhere with it.

Yeah, I assumed it was the first in a series, but it's been almost ten years, so I guess not.

 

[Wencke353]

Gee, where did this thread go?

 

[Tir_an_Beithioch]

Anathem is a clearer example of the "Stephenson isn't great at endings" thing. I loved the first half where we were just wandering around this world. The second half where he tried to do a plot and stuff didn't appeal as much.

You know, I never really thought about it until I read this, but I always feel like the back half of his books are a slog.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Gee, where did this thread go?

Dormant. Don't be a necromancer.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

Would any of you two consider looking at this little (7k words) piece of mine?

The Man from Winter

It's the first chapter of a not-so-sci-fi story.

 

[Omenainen]

Would any of you two consider looking at this little (7k words) piece of mine?

The Man from Winter

It's the first chapter of a not-so-sci-fi story.

We'll give this a pass. You're on AMD's ignore list, and using our time on someone either of us has considered not worth communicating with seems counterproductive.

Good luck with your future writing.

 

[AlinaX]

@VerbalAbuse
I don't really want to do a review here, but I would like to say something about the beginning.

I find the beginning confusing. Is Winter a sentient planet? ... no. Who had to persuade the governments - outside forces? Winter is ignorant of outer space, but makes a selection of human worlds - how did it know? Is Winter a human colony?

That's a lot of confusion for two paragraphs. Plus the tense change between the two paragraphs creates a contradiction between a world of still unending isolationism and a world evolving.

To start with confusion and then switch away to a separate storyline that doesn't promise to resolve any of it quickly... leaves me frustrated rather than excited.

 

[ofbuttons]

A year and a half later...

First of all, I just wanted to thank you both for reading my story when I requested feedback, and sharing your thoughts. For the sake of clarity, I'll explain: around exactly the same time, I got hit with some real life realness and my creativity, desire to write erotica, and engage socially on the Internet evaporated, and getting the momentum back to do any of those things was impossible for a while. Upon getting back into things, my priorities were: write and publish two more chapters of my current series, and acknowledge and reply to the generous feedback/thoughts I was given.

Of course, responding a year and a half ago would put you both at less of a disadvantage, because the story would still be relatively fresh in your mind. Given it's been a minute, I don't expect rigorous discourse or anything, or even a reply, but I did want to engage anyway for the sake of it.

You're right that Into the Dog House [sic, lol] is a humiliation story, and that elements of pet play probably seem tertiary to that element. Maybe those elements are fighting each other, or are in conflict. It's something for me to think about as the series develops.

I will say that I do believe it's also a NonCon/Reluctance story, if more emphasis on Reluctance in vibe. My enjoyment of the story is writing a couple who overstep each others boundaries and then continue to redefine those boundaries, push them some more, make mistakes, overcorrect, etc. It's that push and pull that motivates me as a writer. On a practical note, I think any story where someone's agency and will is being infringed upon in such a way that it dominates the narrative should go into this category for safety's sake, but YMMV. I wouldn't want to put this one in Fetish or Erotic Couplings, because I think I'd have less of an audience for this kind of dynamic.

Okay, but the real thing I wanted to discuss: diegetic and non-diegetic kink.

This is not a pet play story. Not really. Pet play is easily thought of as having the same dynamics as BDSM. You’ve got Dom(me)s and subs, but Dom(me)s and subs get off on control, or relinquishing it. It’s that willingness to work with each other. This is not that.

I think excluding 'pet play' from my tags would be very inaccurate for the story's content. I think this is a story about two people engaging in pet play, and doing so unsafely, and doing so with minimal expertise, and finding that what they like about it includes humiliation and degradation. I still think that's a pet play story.

But it isn't a story about an accurate and realistic depiction of pet play, nor is it what I am seeking to do. Common negative feedback that stories like mine receive (in the wild, not in your critique necessarily) is that as soon as you include BDSM elements, you get stuff like "this is bad BDSM, this is abuse, this is unsafe" despite the fact the story is in NC/R for a reason. While that may be a valid observation, the motivation behind writing this observation and posting it seems to be that the story should depict sane and safe versions of the events being depicted.

(As a note, there tends to be a lot of men with this complaint on stories about male submissives, so that's a whole other discussion about feedback and motivation.)

This is an interesting tension to me. In the real world, we need those safety tools. In a story, I don't feel the need to include them. The people are fictional. No one is being harmed. The fantasy we are seeking when we participate in a BDSM scene, within the parameters of safety tools, is the story itself, and the feelings that story gives us.

I'm a big fan of stories with non-diegetic kink. This means stories with characters enacting elements of kink without acknowledging that this is what they are doing. Into the Dog House, for me, does both. Rachel and Greg are knowingly engaging in pet play. What they are doing without/with minimal acknowledgment, due to their inexperience with the scene and learning as they go, as well as what they get out of it, is engaging in NonCon/Reluctance.

At this point, the kink is just being cruel to others with a dress code. You’ve written a love note to sartorially-specific bullies.

This made me chuckle.

And it's a fair critique. Not to give away where the story will go, but I do want to engage in the reasons most people enjoy pet play in specific as opposed to generalised D/s or humiliation practices -- an alternative means of expressing love and care, the ability to inhabit a whole different persona and mindspace (something Gregory does exhibit, I think), and what dehumanisation means to the individual. In short, while it may be too cruel and unusual for most lovers of pet play, I do want the pet play to matter.

Also, I do happen to think degradation is a factor for some in pet play, but obviously it's more prominent in this story, and your feedback helps me to consider out how to unpack that to make the most out of the characters.

But it's a story that's going to do what it's going to do, and it's been a big learning experience. So thank you for contributing to that experience.

 

[Omenainen]

A year and a half later...

First of all, I just wanted to thank you both for reading my story when I requested feedback, and sharing your thoughts. For the sake of clarity, I'll explain: around exactly the same time, I got hit with some real life realness and my creativity, desire to write erotica, and engage socially on the Internet evaporated, and getting the momentum back to do any of those things was impossible for a while. Upon getting back into things, my priorities were: write and publish two more chapters of my current series, and acknowledge and reply to the generous feedback/thoughts I was given.

Oh hi! Welcome back! I’m sorry to hear you’ve had a rough time. Life happens and life is often shit. I’m also glad to learn that you didn’t disappear because of us, like some people speculated at the time.

 

[AwkwardMD]

@ofbuttons

So glad you came back to read the review! It’s actually kind of demoralizing when we do these writeups and get nothing in response, but there’s really no point at which the author coming back to see it wouldn’t be extremely welcome. There’s no expiration date.

Bear in mind that when I said that Into the Dog House was not a Pet Play story, I am using the sort-of unwritten rule wherein Lit has categories and trumps. Your story is one thing because that’s how stories get found. It goes up in one category; there’s no cross-posting no matter how many kinks a story might actually cater to. Returning to the Group Sex metaphor I used in the original review, it would still be prescient to include an Anal tag just as you want to include a Pet Play tag, but it’s still a Group Sex story. Into The Dog House is a humiliation story. The tertiary kink does not define a story within the bounds of Literotica categorization, and it’s… unhelpful to hold onto the head canon that it’s a pet play story at its core.

We write reviews that try to boil things down in two directions. 1) In order to become a better writer, try X, Y, and Z. 2) In order to succeed on Literotica, try M, N, and O. Most of the time, when we dissect a story and find conflicting motivations underneath, the author in question isn’t aware that they’re doing any such thing; that’s not the case with you. You seem to understand all the flavors you’re inserting into this stew, and any amount of “more of this” or “less of that” should probably be dismissed as our preferences. We go into these blind, not really knowing all that much about you, or your motivations, or your influences. We make some educated guesses, and more often than not we’ve been accurate, but our record is not spotless.

As evidence for this, I didn’t even consider that this was a Reluctance story because that’s not a thing for me. Not just that it’s not a kink I’m into, but that it’s not a story criteria that I usually pick up on. We more often get handed quasi-unintentional-non-con, and have to navigate intentions. “Is this a story that is interested in the loss of consent or does this author just hate women?” Into The Dog House was not non-con, and I said as much, but I forget sometimes that Lit lumps non-con and reluctance together. They’re more closely related within the bounds of Literotica than I’ve previously acknowledged. For me, non-con is a fraught subject and reluctance is not, so there’s a very clear and wide gap between them.

Your inclusion of reluctance veering toward non-con as a non-diagetic kink is extremely thought provoking, and incredibly creative. I think that, as a pure story, that’s an amazing methodology for exploring any subject. I’m not 100% sold on recommending it as good fodder for inclusion an erotic story, and here I have to admit to a bit of hypocrisy. This is definitely something I do, and have done in my own work, but I consider myself experienced enough to explore multiple complex and overlapping topics with care and an eye toward reader expectations. I have worked on my storytelling fundamentals, and I believe myself capable of trying more advanced techniques and still getting my readers to the orgasm I want them to have. I do not know that of you. We only ever read the one story (although we read three chapters of it). That’s not to say that you aren’t capable of this kind of complexity, only that when I was reading your work I did not give you the benefit of the doubt. Whether that’s because of something I saw in the story OR because I went into the story with the expectation that I, as the reviewer, am the more seasoned and experienced writer and am looking for “MISTAKES” to talk about, I can’t say. It’s been too long.

This is an unfortunate shortcoming in our system of reviews. In order to get a complete and total understanding of an author, in order to pin down all the little quirks, we’d need to read everything you’ve ever written in chronological order, and that’s so much more work than we are capable of now, even with two of us. That’s why I’m excited to announce our new Patreon, wherein authors can pay us for this new and unique service that no one has ever thought of before! Just imagine how thorough we could really be if we really put in the work! For only $20US per month, using special code “ThisIsNotReal”, you will be enabling us to really step up our game!

 

[Rob_Royale]

A year and a half later...

Don't feel bad, I did the same thing. I asked for the critique right before you did, and received one. But I just plain forgot I'd asked. It was months later when I discovered this and replied.
https://forum.literotica.com/threads/awkwardmd-and-omenainen-review-thread.1516126/post-96232428
I got a very well thought out critique. I appreciate what they do.

 

[Devil_PS]

I admit, real life usually is why I tend to disappear in these sites because while I love to discuss stories and what not...A 9 to 5 job plus taking care of elderly parents already ends with me just wanting to indulge in dumb fun before burning out for the day.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

This is an unfortunate shortcoming in our system of reviews. In order to get a complete and total understanding of an author, in order to pin down all the little quirks, we’d need to read everything you’ve ever written in chronological order, and that’s so much more work than we are capable of now, even with two of us. That’s why I’m excited to announce our new Patreon, wherein authors can pay us for this new and unique service that no one has ever thought of before! Just imagine how thorough we could really be if we really put in the work! For only $20US per month, using special code “ThisIsNotReal”, you will be enabling us to really step up our game!

There is potential for a BDSM/Findom story here. Pay to have your writing ability shredded to pieces! Humiliation guaranteed!

 

[ofbuttons]

Oh hi! Welcome back! I’m sorry to hear you’ve had a rough time. Life happens and life is often shit. I’m also glad to learn that you didn’t disappear because of us, like some people speculated at the time.

I did catch some of that when I scoured the forum, and apologies that the timing lined up that way. It definitely wasn't anything to do with the feedback, although I appreciate the concern. Thank you for the welcome back!

So glad you came back to read the review! It’s actually kind of demoralizing when we do these writeups and get nothing in response, but there’s really no point at which the author coming back to see it wouldn’t be extremely welcome. There’s no expiration date.

Much appreciated.

We write reviews that try to boil things down in two directions. 1) In order to become a better writer, try X, Y, and Z. 2) In order to succeed on Literotica, try M, N, and O. Most of the time, when we dissect a story and find conflicting motivations underneath, the author in question isn’t aware that they’re doing any such thing; that’s not the case with you. You seem to understand all the flavors you’re inserting into this stew, and any amount of “more of this” or “less of that” should probably be dismissed as our preferences. We go into these blind, not really knowing all that much about you, or your motivations, or your influences. We make some educated guesses, and more often than not we’ve been accurate, but our record is not spotless.

This makes a lot of sense. If it helps, I anticipated that you'd be coming in blind -- and really, a lot of readers will be. People unfamiliar with my intentions as a writer or previous works are as valid as people who have been sticking with the series or followed me for XYZ (or MNO) reasons, so those are valuable takes to have.

As evidence for this, I didn’t even consider that this was a Reluctance story because that’s not a thing for me. Not just that it’s not a kink I’m into, but that it’s not a story criteria that I usually pick up on. We more often get handed quasi-unintentional-non-con, and have to navigate intentions. “Is this a story that is interested in the loss of consent or does this author just hate women?” Into The Dog House was not non-con, and I said as much, but I forget sometimes that Lit lumps non-con and reluctance together. They’re more closely related within the bounds of Literotica than I’ve previously acknowledged. For me, non-con is a fraught subject and reluctance is not, so there’s a very clear and wide gap between them.

That's interesting context too. Probably some of my bias is that while I read NC/R, I actively steer clear of (what I view to be) gussied up rape stories that have that unconvincing "by the way, she likes it" addendum to get past the censors, while finding stories that do interest me and play with that spectrum more skillfully and more genuinely (and I acknowledge that a lot of people would hate that equally and see no difference, lol). That definitely takes some amount of living in the genre.

For what it's worth, I think your perspective is both useful and responsible, especially given the kind of material you review. It's good to be critical about fraught topics. I absolutely get readers who love cruelty and want me to escalate things into outright torture and sadism and that's not truly the audience I'm attempting to cater to, though I don't mind them being along for the ride. I wouldn't really find their feedback useful beyond a 'maybe I took this too far' kind of red flag.

Your inclusion of reluctance veering toward non-con as a non-diagetic kink is extremely thought provoking, and incredibly creative. I think that, as a pure story, that’s an amazing methodology for exploring any subject. I’m not 100% sold on recommending it as good fodder for inclusion an erotic story, and here I have to admit to a bit of hypocrisy. This is definitely something I do, and have done in my own work, but I consider myself experienced enough to explore multiple complex and overlapping topics with care and an eye toward reader expectations. I have worked on my storytelling fundamentals, and I believe myself capable of trying more advanced techniques and still getting my readers to the orgasm I want them to have. I do not know that of you. We only ever read the one story (although we read three chapters of it). That’s not to say that you aren’t capable of this kind of complexity, only that when I was reading your work I did not give you the benefit of the doubt. Whether that’s because of something I saw in the story OR because I went into the story with the expectation that I, as the reviewer, am the more seasoned and experienced writer and am looking for “MISTAKES” to talk about, I can’t say. It’s been too long.

Honestly, I was and still am feeling my way through Into the Dog House. Probably, it would be better to have it all figured out before you hit publish on your first chapter, but then I would literally publish nothing, knowing me. I wouldn't be surprised if these ideas and hopes for my own work I'm talking about don't really manifest well in the first three chapters. I think we disagree on some aspects but that's honestly all good -- it's valuable, and if a reader is getting something different to what I intended, then that's on me, not the reader (or reviewer).

You gave me lots to think about! Whether for this series or my next. I'm very new to writing erotica, with this being my second series (and my first series having so many flaws in how I went about it, lol), so I appreciated the engagement.

This is an unfortunate shortcoming in our system of reviews. In order to get a complete and total understanding of an author, in order to pin down all the little quirks, we’d need to read everything you’ve ever written in chronological order, and that’s so much more work than we are capable of now, even with two of us. That’s why I’m excited to announce our new Patreon, wherein authors can pay us for this new and unique service that no one has ever thought of before! Just imagine how thorough we could really be if we really put in the work! For only $20US per month, using special code “ThisIsNotReal”, you will be enabling us to really step up our game!

Looool. Alternatively, we can submit our stories for feedback with a thesis statement and a literature review, that might help. But seriously, I think you both do great, and did great with mine. I probably came across more defensive than I meant to because I was targetting the points of "conflict" or disagreement and then rambled a bit about stuff I've been thinking about for a while.

I wanted to add also that your thoughts about humiliation as a kink or an element were astute in terms of the way it can kind of 'corrupt' the story, and I have questions of my own about where it can fit otherwise (exclusively in Fetish, maybe?) if a tag isn't a good enough warning/subcategorising effort, but that will be something I pick apart as I go.

 

[Seracae]

Hello! First foray into the Lit forums (though not my first foray into forums, so hopefully I don't trip over anything.)

I was referred to this thread by a chance encounter off-site, when looking for detailed feedback on my older story posted in 2021, Inescapable Pleasure.

I've been working on-and-off on a sequel for years now, but the unexpected success of the first chapter somewhat paralyzed me because I frankly don't know what I did that people appreciated so much. I don't know it it worked because of the specific themes I wrote it for (progressive self-corruption), or if it was the specific fetishes in play (self bondage, overstimulation, danger play). Or was it purely the writing style, and the topic matter was less of a priority?

That indecision has stymied any efforts I've made to try and continue it, so any feedback on the original may help me put that argument to rest.

 

[vagrantx]

Hello!
I was referred to this thread by a chance encounter off-site

Hi! I'm happy you made your way over here. A much friendlier forum if I do say so myself

 

[AlinaX]

@Seracae
I remember this and loved it. You took us through the experiment and its aftermath in careful loving detail.

I think it's a mistake to try to continue it, however. The story is complete as it stands. Unless some burning inspiration hits that makes you write a sequel - it happens - you should let your muse take you elsewhere.

 

[Seracae]

@Seracae
I remember this and loved it. You took us through the experiment and its aftermath in careful loving detail.

I think it's a mistake to try to continue it, however. The story is complete as it stands. Unless some burning inspiration hits that makes you write a sequel - it happens - you should let your muse take you elsewhere.

Interesting. And I do see the perspective, where she rides off "into the sunset" of further corruption, and her specific story no longer needs to be told. I think I may be leaning that way myself, somewhat.

However, there's still something about the format or concept that I feel could be further explored, even if focusing on entirely new characters, or even unrelated kinks. Not "Inescapable Pleasure 2" but still a spiritual continuation of some of the themes. But for that to work, I'd need to know what to take with and what to leave behind.

The fact is that I entirely wrote the story myself and assumed it would die in obscurity, so while I refuse to write purely for an audience, I'm unashamed of the fact that I'm apparently a lot more praise motivated than I expected, and I'd like to at least angle my genuine artistic inclinations towards "what people apparently like".

 

[AlinaX]

Fair enough. After myself writing to the void for years, discovering Literotica's thirsty audience was a joy.

What we all tend to find here, though, is that writing for the audience is a largely thankless exercise. You may get a handful of pleased readers, but it's only worth it if the story they want is something that also grabs you.

Ultimately, you're here for the joy of writing and the joy of being read. Write what you want to write, and there will be readers.

Be warned, if you do a sequel, it may get only a fraction of the views. Especially given the long time gap.

 

[Seracae]

I have absolutely no aspirations of hitting those numbers again; I don't even really get how the first one got there. But as it stands, whatever audience I did manage to hit with Inescapable Pleasure, I liked that I struck that chord with them and would be glad to throw something towards that handful of pleased readers. (A lot of my selfish pleasure comes from the pleasure of others, anyway.)

I've tried to write completely unrelated stories, and the ideas are certainly there, but wanting to do something more with Inescapable has acted as a creative roadblock for years now. So some part of me really does want to give it a shot, and even a dismal failure would at least unblock the pipeline.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

Just wanted to chime in to say that I also read this story a while ago and loved the detail.