AwkwardMD and Omenainen Review Thread
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AwkwardMD
The worst Buddhist
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Also, some things came up in my personal life that have shunted my reviews ro the background. I have read the next story (pretty sure it's The Things That Have Been Done To Me (or something)) and will try to collect my thoughts on it soon. Dare I say it, ASAP.
MichaelStJohn
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The Things Done To Me - my story. But IRL is more important. Hope everything is okay.
Agiel
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I don’t agree with the majority of what Lovecraft stated in his comment but I would comment myself on two of the points he mentioned.
The first one is I’ve read lots of your story reviews and many of them are very good and give excellent feedback to the writer. Although some of them do come across as sycophantic and for the life of me I can’t think why you do it. Or perhaps I’m reading something into the review which doesn’t exist?
But, secondly, many of your reviews are unnecessarily harsh. To the extent the writer will just switch off and any good advice included will be missed. It can, and I feel does, come across on occasions as ‘this is how I would have written the story’ rather than critiquing it in a helpful manner. In any review the person doing the review has to temper bad comments with good otherwise what’s the point? If the writer makes a comment you then respond with a comment which is very dismissive, as if how dare they question your opinion, and you refuse to give a proper answer.
I, like everyone else who reads this thread, appreciate your willingness to spend your time reading and reviewing stories but sometimes it seems as if you got out of bed the wrong side that day.
I’m not guilty of one of the things you accused Lovecraft of in that I have read quite a few of your stories some of which I’ve liked and some I haven’t. Most I’ve left comments on but none of my comments have been harsh and none of them have been sycophantic.
Separate from this is your habit of posting an answer to a comment someone’s made without quoting the comment. Which means searching back to find out to what you are referring. On occasions it’s difficult to work out whose comment it is.
AwkwardMD
The worst Buddhist
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Just to be clear, sycophantic means overly complimentary (it also usually implies that the compliments are sucking up for the purpose of trying to get something in return). I don't think it's a problem for some of my reviews to have been harsh and some of them to have been complimentary. If you feel like some of them were overly harsh, or overly complimentary, in a way that the story itself didn't warrant, then I would absolutely encourage you to contribute to the conversation.
I certainly have never asked for a review in return, so I'm not sure when you think I've been obsequious.
I have admitted, openly, on multiple occasions, where I've read a story and had a specific personal reaction to the story outside of the normal bounds of good, strong writing. In some cases, I sorted myself out, or I got a friend to read it and tell me I was being a total bitch about it. In some cases, I felt I was right to have a reaction and went with it. I always tried to be transparent about that, though, for better or for worse.
My admission in a review to how personal, or emotional, a reaction was is code for "We're stepping outside the bounds of good storytelling conversation." If you don't care about a visceral, emotional outpouring, then skip it, but I feel like there's a lot of value in understanding the emotional reactions of readers. As writers, we're always trying to evoke emotional reactions in our readers, and that can be really powerful when it's harnessed. If a story landed really wrong, it can be an important lesson to find out why.
On the one hand, I am one person. I am not worth impressing. I've said this a hundred times. On the other hand, I am a woman. I am a redhead. I am a professional. I have a career. Like everyone ever, I am a member of many demographics, and sometimes I come across stories that are less than kind to those subjects. Yeah, I speak out. No, I'm not quiet. No, I'm not sorry.
1) I try hard to review stories without turning the feedback into advertisements for my own stories. "Here's how I would have done it" is a formula that creates a bunch of clones of my writing, and that is not my goal. I might have, on a few occasions, recommended some of my own stories for suggestions on how something could be done differently, but I don't think it's fair to argue that I've tried to just browbeat people into doing things my way. I am not so successful or so egotistical as to think my way of doing anything is the right way.
If that's what you think, then I would ask you to point me to where I've done that. Citation, please.
2) I don't engage with bad faith arguments. I don't respond to trolls. If you've ever seen me respond to an author with "Okay", that's me giving up. I don't have the emotional stamina to go in circles. I try, really hard, to make my points in my reviews, right up front, and I don't have time for an author who wants to come back with "nuh uh".
Never feed the trolls. The only way to deal with a troll is to starve them.
...
However
I think anyone that's read the 40k words (or so) of me and EoN going back and forth, discussing her story, would agree that dismissive is not my default response style. I answered her questions as seriously, and as thoroughly, and with as much clarity as I could muster, and I try to do the same for everyone who asks for feedback.
I am not a machine. I am human. I have bad days. I don't feel like these are or should be groundbreaking revelations, but this is an unavoidable part of the human experience.
I don't recall seeing your username come up in my feed, but that's neither here nor there. Even if you haven't read anything of mine, you also aren't trying to make a value judgement of my moral compass. You are welcome to love and hate any percentage of my stories. I've often thought that even some of my most ardent fans probably only really like about half of my work. I go out of my way to cover new ground, and new subjects, and that often means treading into places that fans of my safer work won't follow. Then the edgier fans have no patience for my sappy, mushy, emotional stuff.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Lovecraft, meanwhile, thinks that I'm some kind of prude, or that I'm a pearl-clutching weenie who can't stand a darker subject. That is... his opinion.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I would be lying if I said that, when I started this thread, I was prepared to have a record of my reviews, and my interactions with each author, for other authors to come along later and read (or re-read). I still don't really have my head wrapped around the fact that this thread has, at time of posting, over 70,000 views and less than 100 actual reviews (I think? I haven't counted, but it's gotta be less than 100, right?)
I'm still learning how to engage with so many voices in an asynchronous conversation that involves so many subjects and viewpoints. I'm never trying to make anyone do any extra work to decode what I'm trying to say, but it is a struggle to keep up with.
I guess what I'm trying to say is "I'm sorry? I'm trying my best?"
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AwkwardMD
The worst Buddhist
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Generally, yes. I switched jobs. I've had some car trouble. We've had a lot of family obligations; weddings, baby showers, etc. I'm low-need autistic, and all of these things represent short and long term changes to my routine and my calm.
I promise. I read your story like a month ago. I liked it. I just need to find the time to get my thoughts straight.
Agiel
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I’m sure AwkwardMD doesn’t need you to be her knight in shining armour. What are you looking for? Her to give you a pat on the back? Butt out!
MichaelStJohn
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I'm glad things are okay - in general. No need to explain. I may not be able to *exactly* put myself in your shoes, but I know what it's like to be thrown off balance emotionally by life changes. I can wait and look forward to hearing what you have to say.
AwkwardMD
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The Things Done To Me, by Michael St. John
Link
It’s pretty good. You can write. You can conceptualize a longer story, find natural break points to serialize it into chapters, and keep things paced well. The editing is strong enough that I never felt like I was having to slog through bad writing, and that’s half the battle right there.
As far as the plot goes, everything feels a little easy. It feels like you started at the end and worked backwards. It feels like Persephone is the character the story needs her to be rather than that Persephone is a character AND this is her story.
I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you are a dom, or that you have some dom in you, because this story reads like some other stories I’ve read by doms. There’s this sense of tight creative control, that dominos have to be lined up just so, but the final product has an inorganic feel. The foreshadowing feels forced. Maybe what I call easy, you would say is the character’s fated path, or the attributes that will later make her a good sub shining through in foreshadowing, and maybe that’s true. It’s hard to tell.
I will admit that it’s much easier to critique a story that tries to do something and gets it flat-out wrong, or misses the target it was clearly aiming at. It’s much harder to judge a story that hits the target, because it isn’t like art comes with convenient, concentric circles that let me triangulate exactly how far we are from your version of ideal. Like, what does it matter if I think ideal is one pace to the left when your version is one pace to the right? This isn’t my art. What I think doesn’t matter.
The Things Done To Me is maybe a little heavy handed in its setup. Persephone is scarred, fine, but she got scarred because she drove her Porsche into an oil tanker and it exploded. She did this because she got into a fight with her ex-husband. There are less dramatic ways to get some third degree burns. She throws herself into the hypnosis pretty easily. She can’t imagine facing people, being scarred, but her online handle is SkardGurl.
It felt like there were a lot of tiny little choices that were on the nose. Obvious. Her scars are the only thing that define her, because those are what will matter later. Nothing is left of the first, I forget, 25 years of her life? None of that matters. She shed the whole thing like a molting snake.
I think a lot of this comes from the mindset of the author. Like, I think it’s safe to say that stories everywhere can be divided into two types. The type where you have a character who, when confronted with plot, resolves the plot in ways that are consistent with their personality as established in the beginning, and then you have the type where you have a character who, when confronted with plot, is changed by it. Their source of their growth is internal vs external.
Doms tend to write these external stories, because for them, telling a story is like playing with dolls. I control your strings. You say what I tell you to say and you feel what I tell you to feel. While this probably was a lot of fun for you to create, because you control the process, I think that you trying to write the headspace of the sub doesn’t do the sub justice. Persephone is certainly not an egregious example of “a man writing a woman”, but there were some moments where she was brash, or uninhibited, or cocky in ways that make more sense for a male than a female, and almost no sense for a female who is ostensibly hiding from the world out of fear, shame, and bitterness.
I found it hard to empathize with her. Her pain seemed like more of a prop, a key that unlocks a door behind which lies the rest of the story, rather than being something that lives inside of her and rips her apart a little more every day. If I had to guess, I would say it was this disconnect that kept this story from hitting the BDSM category like a ton of bricks. It’s hard to write a good sub, because that headspace is fragile.
The big picture here, woman puts her life back together after tragedy and discovers BDSM, that’s a winner, but big pictures will only get you so far. No story on Lit works as an abstract (in the academic, paraphrasing sense). You have to be able to zoom in on some details, and when we zoom in on this story, I see more aliasing (the way a computer renders a diagonal or curved line, up-over-up-over) than I would have preferred. There aren’t smooth arcs going from plot point to plot point, it’s jagged about-face turns and zigzagging storytelling choices.
The good news is that this tends to be more of a polish problem. In most cases, I think a lot of these things could be fixed by, for example, changing the tone of Persephone's responses to questions, or even just having her say less. The more she talked, and the more she was lucid and expository about her pain or the cause of it, the more I felt like it wasn't really that bad.
The pieces are in place for her to be a really enigmatic protagonist. You have that in you, and I think that taking what you've learned as you've worked on this story and applying it to the next one will really send you on your way.
Link
It’s pretty good. You can write. You can conceptualize a longer story, find natural break points to serialize it into chapters, and keep things paced well. The editing is strong enough that I never felt like I was having to slog through bad writing, and that’s half the battle right there.
As far as the plot goes, everything feels a little easy. It feels like you started at the end and worked backwards. It feels like Persephone is the character the story needs her to be rather than that Persephone is a character AND this is her story.
I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you are a dom, or that you have some dom in you, because this story reads like some other stories I’ve read by doms. There’s this sense of tight creative control, that dominos have to be lined up just so, but the final product has an inorganic feel. The foreshadowing feels forced. Maybe what I call easy, you would say is the character’s fated path, or the attributes that will later make her a good sub shining through in foreshadowing, and maybe that’s true. It’s hard to tell.
I will admit that it’s much easier to critique a story that tries to do something and gets it flat-out wrong, or misses the target it was clearly aiming at. It’s much harder to judge a story that hits the target, because it isn’t like art comes with convenient, concentric circles that let me triangulate exactly how far we are from your version of ideal. Like, what does it matter if I think ideal is one pace to the left when your version is one pace to the right? This isn’t my art. What I think doesn’t matter.
The Things Done To Me is maybe a little heavy handed in its setup. Persephone is scarred, fine, but she got scarred because she drove her Porsche into an oil tanker and it exploded. She did this because she got into a fight with her ex-husband. There are less dramatic ways to get some third degree burns. She throws herself into the hypnosis pretty easily. She can’t imagine facing people, being scarred, but her online handle is SkardGurl.
It felt like there were a lot of tiny little choices that were on the nose. Obvious. Her scars are the only thing that define her, because those are what will matter later. Nothing is left of the first, I forget, 25 years of her life? None of that matters. She shed the whole thing like a molting snake.
I think a lot of this comes from the mindset of the author. Like, I think it’s safe to say that stories everywhere can be divided into two types. The type where you have a character who, when confronted with plot, resolves the plot in ways that are consistent with their personality as established in the beginning, and then you have the type where you have a character who, when confronted with plot, is changed by it. Their source of their growth is internal vs external.
Doms tend to write these external stories, because for them, telling a story is like playing with dolls. I control your strings. You say what I tell you to say and you feel what I tell you to feel. While this probably was a lot of fun for you to create, because you control the process, I think that you trying to write the headspace of the sub doesn’t do the sub justice. Persephone is certainly not an egregious example of “a man writing a woman”, but there were some moments where she was brash, or uninhibited, or cocky in ways that make more sense for a male than a female, and almost no sense for a female who is ostensibly hiding from the world out of fear, shame, and bitterness.
I found it hard to empathize with her. Her pain seemed like more of a prop, a key that unlocks a door behind which lies the rest of the story, rather than being something that lives inside of her and rips her apart a little more every day. If I had to guess, I would say it was this disconnect that kept this story from hitting the BDSM category like a ton of bricks. It’s hard to write a good sub, because that headspace is fragile.
The big picture here, woman puts her life back together after tragedy and discovers BDSM, that’s a winner, but big pictures will only get you so far. No story on Lit works as an abstract (in the academic, paraphrasing sense). You have to be able to zoom in on some details, and when we zoom in on this story, I see more aliasing (the way a computer renders a diagonal or curved line, up-over-up-over) than I would have preferred. There aren’t smooth arcs going from plot point to plot point, it’s jagged about-face turns and zigzagging storytelling choices.
The good news is that this tends to be more of a polish problem. In most cases, I think a lot of these things could be fixed by, for example, changing the tone of Persephone's responses to questions, or even just having her say less. The more she talked, and the more she was lucid and expository about her pain or the cause of it, the more I felt like it wasn't really that bad.
The pieces are in place for her to be a really enigmatic protagonist. You have that in you, and I think that taking what you've learned as you've worked on this story and applying it to the next one will really send you on your way.
AwkwardMD
The worst Buddhist
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So long and thanks for all the fish!
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/sorry-were-closed-sign-blue-260nw-619132958.jpg
I'm embarrassed that it took me almost three months to finish that last piece of feedback, but I've had some really, really big changes in my life and I've had to re-prioritize some things. I'm cutting back on a lot of the editing I've done for some of my fellow authors, and I'm gonna step away from doing feedback for a while. I have the time, and the energy, but there are other things that I want to spend those on. (hint: it's my girlfriend)
Hopefully, this will allow me to be a bit more productive in my own writing. I never really stop creating, but sometimes I can get so bogged down in wanting to help other people that I put my own projects on the backburner, and I don't want to do that right now.
I wish I could get this thread stickied, though, because I feel like the conversations and the examples, and the back and forth with a lot of the authors, was very productive. If you're the kind of learner who can gain from reading critically, even if what you take away is that I was wrong about something, then that's helpful, but I don't think that's in the cards.
Maybe someday I'll do more. Who knows! Via con juevos!
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/sorry-were-closed-sign-blue-260nw-619132958.jpg
I'm embarrassed that it took me almost three months to finish that last piece of feedback, but I've had some really, really big changes in my life and I've had to re-prioritize some things. I'm cutting back on a lot of the editing I've done for some of my fellow authors, and I'm gonna step away from doing feedback for a while. I have the time, and the energy, but there are other things that I want to spend those on. (hint: it's my girlfriend)
Hopefully, this will allow me to be a bit more productive in my own writing. I never really stop creating, but sometimes I can get so bogged down in wanting to help other people that I put my own projects on the backburner, and I don't want to do that right now.
I wish I could get this thread stickied, though, because I feel like the conversations and the examples, and the back and forth with a lot of the authors, was very productive. If you're the kind of learner who can gain from reading critically, even if what you take away is that I was wrong about something, then that's helpful, but I don't think that's in the cards.
Maybe someday I'll do more. Who knows! Via con juevos!
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MichaelStJohn
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Woot. Praise is good.
I actually write with very little plot in mind. I know the starting point, I know generally what the ending is going to look like, and I write from there. However, I can see how this can lead to an inconsistent character who fits situations rather than reacts to situations in a manner consistent with that character's demeanor. I guess the cure for this is to have a good grip on the main characters' personalities before I start writing.
Unfortunately, I've already started my next series and have probably made the same mistakes. I don't want to lose momentum, so this is something I'll have to consider moving forward.
<cringe> That obvious?
I wouldn't say I created a "fated path" for her, but I admit that her personality may reflect my own preferences. However, I get what you're saying. There should be more inner conflict and more conflict in general. If she seems to be breezing through hard decisions and drastic changes, then the story doesn't really have the same "bite" to draw readers in.
Yet, I still am finding your feedback enlightening. I mean, I'm glad that someone who reads/critiques as many stories as you do think I did well... but that doesn't mean I can't do better. That's the whole point of critique; help the writer (painter, actor, comedian, etc.) do better.
The thing with her ex-husband does come up later in the series so, while it seems heavy-handed, it is a plot point later on as do her parents and upbringing. However, I will openly admit that the hypnosis theme was a little contrived - perhaps even forced. And having her handle be "SkardGurl" was a little on the nose. I have a bad habit of making little jokes to myself within my stories. Later on, I name several characters after other Greek goddesses or mythological characters, who all end up as her friends.
Again... <cringe>
I guess this is another lesson I need to learn - writing character growth as an inside job. Or at least mix it up. I do try to write with a sub's point of view in mind, and I have a woman beta reader, and my wife provides editing/feedback. I'm glad I was somewhat successful in avoiding major pitfalls from a woman's point of view, but even with feedback from two women, something of myself is bound to sneak in.
Maybe a good cure for this is to read more erotica written by sub-types to get into that headspace? I honestly felt that I wrote from a sub's POV fairly well, but it sounds like I was patting myself on the back prematurely.
Hmm..... So, stop spelling so much out in my dialog? Let there be more things unsaid. Again, I thought I was good at that but apparently wasn't getting the right kind of feedback.
All of this is good feedback that I'll take to heart. Thank you - I really do appreciate it.
ElectricBlue
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That's a mighty fine reason to rejig priorities, MD, congratulations.
I find your critiques fascinating, well stated, even if I don't always agree. There's a gap when folk like yourself take a sabbatical from providing detailed feedback but hey, life comes first!
dmallord
Humble Hobbit
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This Thread was Very Educational!
I am still stumbling around this forum stuff, but I am so very glad that I came across this thread!
It contains a treasure trove of information for consideration on how to write and how to self-evaluate one's own work BEFORE it goes up for readers.
So much of what AwkwardMD notes tugged at my arm as if to say, 'Hey, pay attention! This and this and this - all of this applies to the 'crap' you just pitched together on that manure pile you call a story!'
Thank you for all that valiant effort to inform and educate the forum. Regardless of your professional background, as someone said, it is clear that a review of a writer's work by you will be worth its weight in diamonds.
In my earlier days by now, I would just have seized the corner of my 8x11 page and ripped it out of my typewriter's platen to begin again. I'm so glad I have a computer now ... at least I can keep the title and just erase the manure below it!
I am still stumbling around this forum stuff, but I am so very glad that I came across this thread!
It contains a treasure trove of information for consideration on how to write and how to self-evaluate one's own work BEFORE it goes up for readers.
So much of what AwkwardMD notes tugged at my arm as if to say, 'Hey, pay attention! This and this and this - all of this applies to the 'crap' you just pitched together on that manure pile you call a story!'
Thank you for all that valiant effort to inform and educate the forum. Regardless of your professional background, as someone said, it is clear that a review of a writer's work by you will be worth its weight in diamonds.
In my earlier days by now, I would just have seized the corner of my 8x11 page and ripped it out of my typewriter's platen to begin again. I'm so glad I have a computer now ... at least I can keep the title and just erase the manure below it!
NoJo
Happily Marred
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Yeah, this is a great thread, and should be stickied. Much respect to you, and hope you'll be back on the board.
In almost two decades I've been posting here, had a couple of long hiatuses (haiti?) of a year or two. This site is like that, it draws you back here eventually
In almost two decades I've been posting here, had a couple of long hiatuses (haiti?) of a year or two. This site is like that, it draws you back here eventually
Quel dommage.
AwkwardMD
The worst Buddhist
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That was a nice break.
I'm think I'm ready to start taking requests again. Have feedback, will travel. This time around, I'll have a little bit of help. Omenainen and I will be collaborating on the reviews. The plan is to try and crank out one a week, assuming anyone still wants this kind of insight.
- will read any category
- try to keep requests shorter than 10 Lit pages/2-3 chapters
I'm think I'm ready to start taking requests again. Have feedback, will travel. This time around, I'll have a little bit of help. Omenainen and I will be collaborating on the reviews. The plan is to try and crank out one a week, assuming anyone still wants this kind of insight.
- will read any category
- try to keep requests shorter than 10 Lit pages/2-3 chapters
AlexBailey
Kinky Tomgirl
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I’d figured you were done here. The last I saw of you was a surprisingly sophisticated attempt to do a double-backwards-somersault through a hoop whilst whistling the ‘Star Spangled Banner,” but then I never did have my finger on the total perspective vortex.
Welcome back, AwkDoc.
Welcome back, AwkDoc.
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Winter_Fare
Virgo
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Putting my money where my mouth is...
I benefitted from this thread already because other people have put their work up for criticism, I would love for you to give this story a thorough kicking.
It's part of an ongoing series so I'm grateful for any advice that will help it grow. So far this chapter had a lukewarm reception and I'm a bit disheartened. It's about 11.4k words, I originally put it in sci-fi but it had less than 500 views over a month so I moved it to horror thinking it would be a better fit. Nope. Seems like it may just suck x
https://literotica.com/s/debtors-war-1
I benefitted from this thread already because other people have put their work up for criticism, I would love for you to give this story a thorough kicking.
It's part of an ongoing series so I'm grateful for any advice that will help it grow. So far this chapter had a lukewarm reception and I'm a bit disheartened. It's about 11.4k words, I originally put it in sci-fi but it had less than 500 views over a month so I moved it to horror thinking it would be a better fit. Nope. Seems like it may just suck x
https://literotica.com/s/debtors-war-1
AwkwardMD
The worst Buddhist
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Winter_Fare
Debtor's War
Link
First of all, you can write, and write well. You’ve got a lot of strong descriptiveness happening. You’ve clearly got a complicated and rich world around your story. The characters all seem very individualized, and not like carbon copies of each other (or like carbon copies of characters from other popular fantasy stories). The sex was graphic, and thorough, and intense. Good, strong stuff. I think I like where the story is going, and it feels like there’s some really good storytelling going on behind the writing. However, there are a few issues regarding narration and dialogue.
***
The main issue was that there was a kind of distance between the reader and the action of the story, and that detracted from the experience. Some part of the writing of the story, the execution of the narration, is preventing the reader from getting completely sucked in.
This story could be told in a number of ways. What you’ve chosen is one where the narrator has an active voice and is telling the story at some point after the events happen. Even though this is first person and we theoretically couldn’t get closer to the story, this choice of narration style distances and detaches the reader and lessens the threat of the consequences. For example, Elizabeth is afraid that Enzo will kill her, but the reader kind of knows she lives to tell the tale.
The narrator is apparently reminiscing about the events, but it’s not clear at which point in time this reminiscing is happening or who they are telling the story to. There are some direct references of the listener. There are lines like “ugly medieval building,” which is a pretty serious fourth wall break, but this is not utilized to any greater extent (for example “what I didn’t know at the time was that blah blah greater significance of something”). There is a place for fourth wall breaks, but this isn’t it. Instead, it feels like someone spliced a couple scenes from Monty Python’s The Life of Brian into The Passion Of The Christ. If the gist of it is that the girl is made into a vampire, and is telling the story to someone in current times, or, say, 1700s, that completely changes the framework you should use to tell the story. Interview with the Vampire is about the interview. If I had to guess, I would say that the fourth wall breaks all represent places where you, the author, had information to share, but you couldn’t figure out how to work it in organically. Instead, in the back of our minds, we’re keeping all of these little moments handy in our short term memory (rather than, say, the actual story) in case it comes back around for an Aha! moment. We’re looking for clues for a puzzle that doesn’t exist.
The girl’s reactions to anything are pretty mild. For instance the existence of monsters seems to affect her little to not at all. One would think that a superstitious (probably religious) medieval girl would be absolutely petrified to encounter unnatural (read: unholy) monsters, but nobody bats an eye. There was a line that read like “Oh, I guess the turks have monsters too” that landed with so little impact that I almost missed it happening. Events are narrated passively, without giving them much emotional context. I’ve said before in other places that tension and reward go hand in hand. If the narrator is coming face to face with monsters with all the emotional complexity of a brick wall, then this reveal will probably give the reader the exact same response: meh.
And then there was the dialog. Maybe it’s just me, but I felt like almost everyone, in most conversations, was trying to be coy about whatever the subject of the conversation was, and nobody ever got around to saying the thing outright. I didn’t feel like I understood what anyone was really trying to say half the time, which had me skipping ahead to see if the narration was going to fill us in, and then skipping around to widen my search, and then having to re-read. It’s one thing to have intrigue, but it’s something else entirely to never get to the point.
This is why a lot of media (and I’m thinking of movies and TV especially) has the main character followed by someone who will just say the thing out loud (though that character also tends to be comic relief). There is value in dragging out a reveal, but Debtor’s War went a couple steps too far.
I went and read the first story, too. It was narrated in the same way, but I felt like it managed to convey the feelings better than this sequel. The reader feels what the main character feels, and in Debtor’s War Elizabeth is just dead inside. That numbness is a contributing factor to the distance.
After reading the first chapter it’s easier to see where some of the named characters come from, when in the sequel it felt like they popped up from nowhere. Writing stories that are interconnected requires a lot of effort to be put in introducing characters and the relevant parts of their backstories in a way that won’t bore those who have read the previous part (or the author) but will establish their importance to new readers. This is a difficult skill to master, and Debtor’s War left us scratching our heads.
There has been a lot of discussion on whether to write standalone stories or chaptered series, and we won’t go into that here. If you want to write connected stories that are not really a series, you should put effort into making the individual parts work as standalone stories. If you’re using a framing device (like journal entries), you should establish the premise more clearly (where, when and why the narration is taking place) and you should do that in every individual entry of the overall story.
It’s hard to say where this story would best be categorized. Erotic Horror isn’t an awful choice. Non-con, BDSM, Non-Human or even Anal could work, depending on what the main erotic point is (and it kind of seems like you haven’t actually gotten to the main erotic point yet). Be that as it may, an epic story like this could benefit from a catchier beginning, even though it would come at the cost of some plot reveals. For instance, you could have started this with “Let me tell you how I became the terror who ruled Vienna in secret for the last four hundred years”, or whatever. It would give the reader some idea of what they’re up against.
Debtor's War
Link
First of all, you can write, and write well. You’ve got a lot of strong descriptiveness happening. You’ve clearly got a complicated and rich world around your story. The characters all seem very individualized, and not like carbon copies of each other (or like carbon copies of characters from other popular fantasy stories). The sex was graphic, and thorough, and intense. Good, strong stuff. I think I like where the story is going, and it feels like there’s some really good storytelling going on behind the writing. However, there are a few issues regarding narration and dialogue.
***
The main issue was that there was a kind of distance between the reader and the action of the story, and that detracted from the experience. Some part of the writing of the story, the execution of the narration, is preventing the reader from getting completely sucked in.
This story could be told in a number of ways. What you’ve chosen is one where the narrator has an active voice and is telling the story at some point after the events happen. Even though this is first person and we theoretically couldn’t get closer to the story, this choice of narration style distances and detaches the reader and lessens the threat of the consequences. For example, Elizabeth is afraid that Enzo will kill her, but the reader kind of knows she lives to tell the tale.
The narrator is apparently reminiscing about the events, but it’s not clear at which point in time this reminiscing is happening or who they are telling the story to. There are some direct references of the listener. There are lines like “ugly medieval building,” which is a pretty serious fourth wall break, but this is not utilized to any greater extent (for example “what I didn’t know at the time was that blah blah greater significance of something”). There is a place for fourth wall breaks, but this isn’t it. Instead, it feels like someone spliced a couple scenes from Monty Python’s The Life of Brian into The Passion Of The Christ. If the gist of it is that the girl is made into a vampire, and is telling the story to someone in current times, or, say, 1700s, that completely changes the framework you should use to tell the story. Interview with the Vampire is about the interview. If I had to guess, I would say that the fourth wall breaks all represent places where you, the author, had information to share, but you couldn’t figure out how to work it in organically. Instead, in the back of our minds, we’re keeping all of these little moments handy in our short term memory (rather than, say, the actual story) in case it comes back around for an Aha! moment. We’re looking for clues for a puzzle that doesn’t exist.
The girl’s reactions to anything are pretty mild. For instance the existence of monsters seems to affect her little to not at all. One would think that a superstitious (probably religious) medieval girl would be absolutely petrified to encounter unnatural (read: unholy) monsters, but nobody bats an eye. There was a line that read like “Oh, I guess the turks have monsters too” that landed with so little impact that I almost missed it happening. Events are narrated passively, without giving them much emotional context. I’ve said before in other places that tension and reward go hand in hand. If the narrator is coming face to face with monsters with all the emotional complexity of a brick wall, then this reveal will probably give the reader the exact same response: meh.
And then there was the dialog. Maybe it’s just me, but I felt like almost everyone, in most conversations, was trying to be coy about whatever the subject of the conversation was, and nobody ever got around to saying the thing outright. I didn’t feel like I understood what anyone was really trying to say half the time, which had me skipping ahead to see if the narration was going to fill us in, and then skipping around to widen my search, and then having to re-read. It’s one thing to have intrigue, but it’s something else entirely to never get to the point.
This is why a lot of media (and I’m thinking of movies and TV especially) has the main character followed by someone who will just say the thing out loud (though that character also tends to be comic relief). There is value in dragging out a reveal, but Debtor’s War went a couple steps too far.
I went and read the first story, too. It was narrated in the same way, but I felt like it managed to convey the feelings better than this sequel. The reader feels what the main character feels, and in Debtor’s War Elizabeth is just dead inside. That numbness is a contributing factor to the distance.
After reading the first chapter it’s easier to see where some of the named characters come from, when in the sequel it felt like they popped up from nowhere. Writing stories that are interconnected requires a lot of effort to be put in introducing characters and the relevant parts of their backstories in a way that won’t bore those who have read the previous part (or the author) but will establish their importance to new readers. This is a difficult skill to master, and Debtor’s War left us scratching our heads.
There has been a lot of discussion on whether to write standalone stories or chaptered series, and we won’t go into that here. If you want to write connected stories that are not really a series, you should put effort into making the individual parts work as standalone stories. If you’re using a framing device (like journal entries), you should establish the premise more clearly (where, when and why the narration is taking place) and you should do that in every individual entry of the overall story.
It’s hard to say where this story would best be categorized. Erotic Horror isn’t an awful choice. Non-con, BDSM, Non-Human or even Anal could work, depending on what the main erotic point is (and it kind of seems like you haven’t actually gotten to the main erotic point yet). Be that as it may, an epic story like this could benefit from a catchier beginning, even though it would come at the cost of some plot reveals. For instance, you could have started this with “Let me tell you how I became the terror who ruled Vienna in secret for the last four hundred years”, or whatever. It would give the reader some idea of what they’re up against.
Winter_Fare
Virgo
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2021
- Posts
- 1,171
Thank you for the thoughtful feedback, all very useful stuff. I'm probably going to continue with numbered chapters rather than stand alone stories, tbh, redescribing everything feels like reinventing the wheel each time.
I do see the need to frame the narrative so it's not confusing to the readers, that certainly wasn't the effect I was after.
Shit collapses around and on top of Elizabeth and she dusts herself off and keeps walking. She's a cat, I think, her reaction to most things is 'meh'. I guess it's my attempt to write the trauma response into her character: starvation, finding her brothers mauled to death by dogs for poaching, living day to day with risk until it becomes background noise. Monsters? Meh. People are worse. It's taken a lot of words to get this far, I hope I don't lose every reader on the way, but the story is ultimately about rekindling her lust for life, not the grind of survival, but real purpose.
I do see the need to frame the narrative so it's not confusing to the readers, that certainly wasn't the effect I was after.
Shit collapses around and on top of Elizabeth and she dusts herself off and keeps walking. She's a cat, I think, her reaction to most things is 'meh'. I guess it's my attempt to write the trauma response into her character: starvation, finding her brothers mauled to death by dogs for poaching, living day to day with risk until it becomes background noise. Monsters? Meh. People are worse. It's taken a lot of words to get this far, I hope I don't lose every reader on the way, but the story is ultimately about rekindling her lust for life, not the grind of survival, but real purpose.
Heliopheres
Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Posts
- 67
Hello @AwkwardMD and @Omenainen ,
After reading some of your reviews in this thread I feel confident and brave enough to ask this: Would any of the two of you read a short story that I wrote in 2016/17 and was rejected on here because it was 'too political'? It's an erotic satire I feel is still far too relevant and would like to know if there are some big writing mistakes in it. I could send it as a modern word-file or pdf. Feel free to send me a message.
Yours
Helio
After reading some of your reviews in this thread I feel confident and brave enough to ask this: Would any of the two of you read a short story that I wrote in 2016/17 and was rejected on here because it was 'too political'? It's an erotic satire I feel is still far too relevant and would like to know if there are some big writing mistakes in it. I could send it as a modern word-file or pdf. Feel free to send me a message.
Yours
Helio
AwkwardMD
The worst Buddhist
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2014
- Posts
- 3,059
Hello Helio,
In general, this thread is a resource built around stories that meet Lit's submission standards. In the past, both Omen and I have accepted requests for private feedback or for beta reading to get stories in line with Lit standard, but we are not currently accepting private requests.
You may have luck creating your own thread and requesting a private reader.
Heliopheres
Experienced
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2010
- Posts
- 67
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate your honesty and I wish both of you the best.
EarlyMorningLight
Subversive
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2022
- Posts
- 390
*deep breath*
Ok, as promised to you both, here’s my first story for Lit. Hope you enjoy.
Juxtapositions
Warning to the peanut gallery: don’t bother with this one unless you’re ready for some very queer sex.
Tempted to say more, but I’d rather people go in cold.
Ok, as promised to you both, here’s my first story for Lit. Hope you enjoy.
Juxtapositions
Warning to the peanut gallery: don’t bother with this one unless you’re ready for some very queer sex.
Tempted to say more, but I’d rather people go in cold.
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