AwkwardMD and Omenainen Review Thread

There are any number of ways to implement diversity and variety, just as there are many motivations and reasons for doing so. Whether one is doing it for moral, practical, or personal reasons doesn't matter in the end, but sometimes it can be easy to fall into comfort zones without realizing it.

I have a quote on my author page that a friend gave me, and I believe in it wholeheartedly; if you get too comfortable, you aren't learning anything. I count it as a great personal victory anytime someone's response to my advice is "I'll think about it," and I really hope that they do.

That is pretty much how all reviews work, yes...



If AMD had said "all the stories I've reviewed have been about cuckoldry, maybe try a different theme some time?" nobody would bat an eyelid. If she had pointed out that an author's vocabulary was limited to the point of monotony, ditto. But when she makes the same point about race...

Anybody who posts their stories on Literotica is doing it for an audience. Anybody who asks for a review is already interested in how that audience feels about their story. That being the case, thinking about "how will readers react to this choice?" is a sensible idea.



You say this like it's a bad thing.

An author who makes an effort to grow can expect to get a higher, more demanding standard of critique. Not because the world is full of wokescolds trying to stop them writing, but because when they improve, the critique has to become more demanding to remain useful.

When a four-year-old asks me for feedback on a poem, I'll tell them "you wrote a poem, this is great!" because my expectations are low and at that stage, the most important thing is just to encourage them to keep writing and develop.

By the time that kid reaches twelfth grade, we're going to be talking about rhythm and scansion and a whole heap of other stuff that the four-year-old never even knew existed, because this is where the frontier of their ability now lies.

Receiving criticism is part of growing as a writer. Anybody requesting feedback already knows that (unless what they're actually looking for is just praise, in which case this might not be the right thread).

With that said... where race and culture are concerned on Literotica, the bar is very very low.

I'm a white kid from a whitebread childhood. I don't speak Arabic, Hindi, or Greek. I'm not Muslim. I'm only "immigrant" by the most technical of technicalities. I've never done sex work or (to my knowledge) dated anybody who has. My only cred on racial issues is that I spend a few minutes googling basic stuff, and for one series I'm lucky enough to have a beta reader who can give me a Hindu perspective on things. I'm sure any actual Indian/Iraqi/Greek readers could pick holes in my representations of their cultures, if they chose.

They don't, though. Instead, they send feedback like this:

"As someone who ... is of South Asian descent... this series resonated on so many levels."
"As a girl from Asia, I really like how you deal with cultural differences."
"I just wanted to drop you a note of thanks for your Red Scarf and Copper Coin stories. I was very pleasantly surprised to find some awesome stories focusing on South Asian and Muslim characters. It means a lot to see - thank you!"

IME, making even a cursory effort to portray non-white characters is far more likely to result in happy readers and nice feedback than to get me scolded.



Counterpoint: making the effort to get inside the skin of a character whose life is very different to their own is one of the most creative things a writer can be doing.

The both of you type alike and share the same opinions, you must obviously be the same person.
 
The both of you type alike and share the same opinions, you must obviously be the same person.
Having "known" these two individuals from their forum posting activity for three or four years, including personal interactions with both on occasion, as well as frequent forum interaction, I will say no, you are wrong. Sure, they might have some characteristics in common (and I think they'd both agree about that), but without doubt Bramblethorn and AwkwardMD are two different people.
 
The both of you type alike and share the same opinions, you must obviously be the same person.

We do share a lot of opinions, especially about writing - not too surprising considering we're friends and we edit one another's work.

But if you think we "type alike"... I can understand missing some of the subtler points, but really, you didn't even notice the difference between US and Australian English?
 
That's just PC nonsense.

When people complain about political correctness (which isn't actually a thing!) they are actually dismissing a value of someone else as a frivilous idea. It is demeaning and a form of gaslighting. My concern is that people who complain things are "too PC" are just perpetuating injustice. We have riots around the world this week acknowledging systematic oppression of black people and First Nations people throughout history and especially today in many countries and continents. To me, this is not PC, but the mark of a decent human being who can stand up for the oppressed.

I'm happy for people to write stories as they see fit, but if you are going to criticise some of us for trying to diversify our character base by calling it frivilous then perhaps just choose not to read our stories inatead of demeaning the values of other authors.
 
When people complain about political correctness (which isn't actually a thing!) they are actually dismissing a value of someone else as a frivilous idea. It is demeaning and a form of gaslighting. My concern is that people who complain things are "too PC" are just perpetuating injustice. We have riots around the world this week acknowledging systematic oppression of black people and First Nations people throughout history and especially today in many countries and continents. To me, this is not PC, but the mark of a decent human being who can stand up for the oppressed.

I'm happy for people to write stories as they see fit, but if you are going to criticise some of us for trying to diversify our character base by calling it frivilous then perhaps just choose not to read our stories inatead of demeaning the values of other authors.

Very well said.
 
KeithD isn't actually anti-PC. If you look, his avatar is that of a black man (POC MC) from one of his own stories. Given the context of the original conversation, which Keith would have needed to read to know, he would have been praised.

Unfortunately, this is what Keith does. He doesn't read your post. He'll just glance at it, pick an opposite stance regardless of whether it's something he believes or practices himself, and shit on it. He an opportunist. His argument doesn't make even the least bit of sense given the conversation about diversity that went on in this thread. KeithD is a bully, and you should all just ignore him.
 
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I think that well intentioned white writers may sometimes shy away from creating characters of color out of concerns that they might inadvertently offend by unconsciously slipping into stereotypes, or that they may be seen as presumptuously appropriating a story that is not theirs to tell.

I grew up in a small town in Northern New England. As a child, I probably saw the Aurora Borealis more often than I saw an African American or Latinx person. If I had not moved to a large city and married an African American man, I doubt that I, a white girl from the sticks, would have had the confidence to create POC characters. I am very lucky to be able to run anything that I am unsure about past my husband.

I try to present the world realistically in my stories. In my long series set in small town New England, realistically, the characters are predominantly white. But that world is changing, and I have tried to incorporate that into the narrative. I introduced a family of Somali refugees as characters. I have used ethnic names for minor characters as signifiers to at least recognize the existence of POC in my fictional world. I don’t see that as “political correctness”, but as mindfulness of the world around us.
 
I think that well intentioned white writers may sometimes shy away from creating characters of color out of concerns that they might inadvertently offend by unconsciously slipping into stereotypes, or that they may be seen as presumptuously appropriating a story that is not theirs to tell.

I think this is partly it. I think it's also that in many erotic stories -- in many of mine, for instance -- race isn't an issue. My stories tend to have few characters. When I create them I tend to default to what I know best and is most like me, which is white people. I don't think about it. I don't HAVE to think about it, and as a result, it makes writing easier. It's probably fair to say that whiteness is a default setting in my stories, and it's probably that way for many white writers. I've become conscious of that and I think that consciousness is beginning, slowly, to creep into how I'm developing future stories and their characters.

In one of my recent stories I decided to make the heroine half-Indian, and I gave her an Indian name. I wish I could say I did so for progressive reasons but really I was just kind of inspired by a girl I had a crush on a long time ago.
 
Yes, it’s waaaay “too historically inaccurate” to add a Chinese person to a fictional story about the American Revolution... when the whole fucking thing was kicked off around tea taxes. That’s just silly :rolleyes:

Don’t know if you know this, but tea was grown in China in the 1700s. The British imported tea from Bengal in India and Canton, which is in China; they did it though a company called “The East India Company”. Tea, which was shipped from China into Britain and then re-exported to Britain’s American colonies, formed part of Britain’s controversial taxation agenda for the said colonies during the 1760s and 1770s. The Cohongs, controlling corporations over the Canton trade, warned the British and the Americans, tldr, “Keep your stupid war out of our waters, our Emperor won’t stand for it. Just make sure you pay your fucking debts or else we’re coming for all y’all.”

But yeah, it’s perfectly “historically accurate” to write a story set in the 1700s with every single captain and soldier in the brigade either gay or gay for pay. That totally is accurate and sensible, and to the extent it’s not, it’s merely a believable extrapolation to fit the fantasy element of erotica. And anybody who says otherwise is a jerk who hates gay stories and must be homophobic....

F for fail. Sit down.

These kind of comments, that stress how wrong, silly and also INACCURATE it is to include POC to the fabric of history and especially to pinnacle moments of history are just part of the systemically racist mythology that chokes not only reality but also creativity. And the very audacious self-assurance that you can selectively rewrite history however you want to, and describe whatever fictional story you like while denying fictional stories that have both semi-historical bases and positive meaning to others is the absolute epitome of white privilege.
 
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I think this is partly it. I think it's also that in many erotic stories -- in many of mine, for instance -- race isn't an issue. My stories tend to have few characters. When I create them I tend to default to what I know best and is most like me, which is white people. I don't think about it. I don't HAVE to think about it, and as a result, it makes writing easier. It's probably fair to say that whiteness is a default setting in my stories, and it's probably that way for many white writers. I've become conscious of that and I think that consciousness is beginning, slowly, to creep into how I'm developing future stories and their characters.

In one of my recent stories I decided to make the heroine half-Indian, and I gave her an Indian name. I wish I could say I did so for progressive reasons but really I was just kind of inspired by a girl I had a crush on a long time ago.

Here's the conundrum: In My Fall and Rise, I wrote about women's prison. I never described or identified any of the women by race or ethnicity. It was not relevant to the story. But, by leaving those descriptors out, did I inadvertently erase women of color from the narrative? A narrative, I would add, in which they were present and could reasonably be assumed to be present by the reader.

I do think realistic representation is important, but I am unsure of the point at which it rises to the level of relevance.
 
Here's the conundrum: In My Fall and Rise, I wrote about women's prison. I never described or identified any of the women by race or ethnicity. It was not relevant to the story. But, by leaving those descriptors out, did I inadvertently erase women of color from the narrative? A narrative, I would add, in which they were present and could reasonably be assumed to be present by the reader.

I do think realistic representation is important, but I am unsure of the point at which it rises to the level of relevance.

I wonder about this, too, and am curious what people think about this.

Keep in mind we're writing erotic stories here. Erotic stories have their own needs.

There is some virtue in NOT describing characters in erotic stories, because the readers can imagine them to be whatever they want them to be. It's obvious from reader comments that this is important to many readers.

On the other hand, many readers probably would like to see more characters described as being from backgrounds they want to read about . There is a sizable Indian readership at this Site, for example, and my impression is they are eager to read more stories with Indian characters.
 
. We have riots around the world this week acknowledging systematic oppression of black people and First Nations people throughout history and especially today in many countries and continents. To me, this is not PC, but the mark of a decent human being who can stand up for the oppressed. .

This subject isn’t really pertinent to MD’s thread.

I’ve deleted my entire comment except for the first eight words because, although the above comment got to me, it put my response in the same category as the other person. I still think SJ’s comment isn’t pertinent to this thread and, although MD hasn’t asked me to, I think the best course of action is for me to apologise because this is her thread.
 
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But yeah, it’s perfectly “historically accurate” to write a story set in the 1700s with every single captain and soldier in the brigade either gay or gay for pay. That totally is accurate and sensible, and to the extent it’s not, it’s merely a believable extrapolation to fit the fantasy element of erotica. And anybody who says otherwise is a jerk who hates gay stories and must be homophobic....

In a similar discussion in re historical romance, somebody pointed out that there were far more black people in Regency England than there were dukes, but somehow authors who wrote duke after duke after duke were still using "historical accuracy" as an argument against including black characters.

We all pick what we want to include from history (Swords! Princes! Warrior monks!) and what we want to leave out (Bad teeth! The 99% of the population who weren't nobility! Dysentery! Stuff that's boring to research!) All of those are choices, and we should be prepared to own them.
 
Neither black or white or even green

I’ve never written a story in which I’ve specified either specifically or by intimation the ethnicity of the characters. It’s something, up to reading this thread, I’ve never thought about. I have the idea for a story, and I’ve never had one where the idea was ethnically based, and write it. My stories are driven by what happens not by whether the character(s) are black or white. If someone wants to see my characters as white they can and the same if they want to see a character as black.

I may describe a woman as having “blonde hair cascading over her voluptuous breasts” but it doesn’t mean she’s white. Black women (and men) have been known to dye their hair and voluptuous breasts can be on a white or black woman. In just the same way beauty is in the eye of the beholder ethnicity can be in the eye of the reader.

If a story needs a character to be of a particular ethnicity I’ll describe them that way but up to now it’s not come up (unlike what’s happened with the men in my stories.)
 
Here's the conundrum: In My Fall and Rise, I wrote about women's prison. I never described or identified any of the women by race or ethnicity. It was not relevant to the story...

You might not have spelled it out, but Theresa is described as "a brunette with an olive complexion" and Desiree as "dark". From that, my first guesses would've been Hispanic and Black respectively. After prison, Rodrigo is ID'ed as "Mexican", and Dwight appears to be Black. Plus these minor characters:

Dwight's friends were an amazingly diverse group. In addition to those in the living room there were several more browsing the buffet and, as at any party, a group hanging out in the kitchen. Most were white, but several were black. There was an Asian woman, who i learned later was a newspaper reporter and a rotund Hispanic man who was a poet. I met a lesbian couple, one of whom was a doctor and the other an artist. A few others were artists as well, and Dwight pointed out some of their work hanging on his walls. Just as I began to feel like I was well out of my league, he introduced me to a friend who was an auto mechanic and another who was a welder. There were two people I knew from work; Carl, Dwight's sous chef, and Anita, one of the desk clerks at the hotel. Still, I felt self conscious and mostly hovered around the buffet, nodding and smiling at people as they browsed the food or poured a drink. Most of the conversation was about books I had not read, films I had not seen, people I did not know.

You didn't get into racial politics that I remember, but you certainly didn't give the impression that you were thinking of everybody in story-Melissa's world as white.
 
I wonder about this, too, and am curious what people think about this.

Keep in mind we're writing erotic stories here. Erotic stories have their own needs.

There is some virtue in NOT describing characters in erotic stories, because the readers can imagine them to be whatever they want them to be. It's obvious from reader comments that this is important to many readers.

On the other hand, many readers probably would like to see more characters described as being from backgrounds they want to read about . There is a sizable Indian readership at this Site, for example, and my impression is they are eager to read more stories with Indian characters.

As you know, I believe that it would be a positive step for writers to be conscious of making sure their supporting characters more diverse.

[Quick side note for everyone trying to think of examples where it wouldn't be realistic: 1: Very few stories on Lit are realistic in any other respect. 2: An effort to be more diverse does not have to extend to every single story. Nobody is talking about filling the ranks of slaves on a slave ship in the 1700s with white people. Don't be silly. It's the weakest sort of argument to find an extreme example and use it to try to defeat a sound principle. 3: Nobody's stifling anyone's creativity. If anything, it's a suggestion to surpass self-limitations. A discussion of taking things in a positive direction does not mean that you can't continue to write exactly the same way you've been writing until your dying day, if that is your goal.]

My thinking is that there are two cases to consider when race is never described. The first is when the story is genuinely neutral on the subject. In that case, I don't think anybody has been erased and the author has done their job. The author who makes it their goal to help people become more aware of diversity might want to do more, but that's taking things beyond not erasing anybody. I feel like not erasing anybody is the standard we should expect from ourselves as human beings. I think going above and beyond that is laudable, and that there's no reason it has to be done in a clumsy fashion.

The second case I see is were race isn't explicitly described, but is implicit. I think this may be difficult to impossible for us to catch in all instances - possibly an argument for deliberate inclusion, but there are times you can see it. If the characters all read like white characters, (or some other demographic), the story is still about all white characters, even if they aren't labeled as such.

Trying to decide whether characters "read" like they're a particular race is absolutely fraught. It leaves you trying to decide whether you're identifying characteristics as white because it's an accurate reflection, because of your own unconscious bias, or because you are perpetuating other people's biases. Further complicating the issue is the fact that there is no one way white people present, or black people present, or lesbians present, etc., etc. How does one accomplish it?

The concern about writing outside of one's own race is valid, but generally would only apply to the main characters. I wouldn't think a supporting character gets the sort of treatment that will implicate sensitivities on the subject of writing outside one's demographic. But, thinking of it in terms of demographics, unless we write exclusively same-sex stories, we're already writing outside of our demographics. I have more challenges writing the male characters, particularly in the sex scenes, but I feel competent to write them. That example is a little different than the race example. Men aren't a frequently erased demographic and they aren't systemic victims of appropriations (unless you ask some lonely, hairy-palmed basement dwellers.) Most of us also routinely write about people from different socioeconomic backgrounds than our own with relative confidence.

I would agree that writing a main character of a different race requires more sensitivity, and I don't know what my own answer is for that. So far, I've written white main characters because I am white. I do feel competent to write characters of other races. I've had long-term relationships with men of other races, and honestly, except for the hostility or intrusive curiosity one encounters, or the significant other's routine encounters with racism, describing those relationships would be no different than describing my relationships with white men. Because, yeah, we're all human. I would probably have to add "You cook like a white woman," in the dialog in several places, though. Thanks a lot, Tony and Duarte!

That would be different than trying to write from inside the head of a minority, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. I'd like to do it. I'd hate to do it poorly. I also respect the opinions some people have that I have no business trying to do it at all in something I intend to make public. For a personal exercise, I can't imagine a better way to become more understanding of other people's points of view than trying to write from their perspective, although this carries a risk of its own. I'm sure we've all encountered people who think they are so empathetic that they understand things they very clearly don't, and we need to be conscious of the risk of using such an exercise to validate our perceptions, rather than exploring them.

For now, I write white main characters who are white, and ensure that my supporting characters are diverse. Most of that comes naturally. Characters of any race are likely to pop into my head. Gay characters are no stranger to my natural cast of characters, either. I've noticed, though, that trans and non-binary people do not naturally occur to me. If I want to be inclusive - and I do - I'll need to make a conscious effort to sprinkle them in occasionally. My failure to conjure them naturally is a sign that I'm not adequately "seeing" them in society, and I want to correct that. I expect that over time, my perspective on the best way for me to handle this issue in my own writing will evolve. I know my solution isn't perfect. For now, the important thing to me is that I'm making the effort.

One argument against gender/orientation diversity I've heard is that the gender and orientation of the supporting characters doesn't come into play. I think the two cases described earlier apply here. But here's a question anyone can easily ask themselves: Does the reader know that my supporting characters are married or in relationships? If so, and if your readers know John is married to Jill, you have communicated a heterosexual relationship, whether or not you make a point of it.

Peopling our worlds with diverse characters doesn't mean we can't stay within our areas of competence or comfort with the main characters. It doesn't stifle anyone's creativity. It's simply a matter of whether each of us thinks this is a desirable goal, or if we want to say, "But I'm an artist. I don't have to."
 
Having "known" these two individuals from their forum posting activity for three or four years, including personal interactions with both on occasion, as well as frequent forum interaction, I will say no, you are wrong. Sure, they might have some characteristics in common (and I think they'd both agree about that), but without doubt Bramblethorn and AwkwardMD are two different people.

I took it as an appropriate slap back for the claim that SeaborneFare and SamathaCatfish were the same person.
 
KeithD isn't actually anti-PC. If you look, his avatar is that of a black man (POC MC) from one of his own stories. Given the context of the original conversation, which Keith would have needed to read to know, he would have been praised.

Unfortunately, this is what Keith does. He doesn't read your post. He'll just glance at it, pick an opposite stance regardless of whether it's something he believes or practices himself, and shit on it. He an opportunist. His argument doesn't make even the least bit of sense given the conversation about diversity that went on in this thread. KeithD is a bully, and you should all just ignore him.

Kind, but fair.
 
Yes, it’s waaaay “too historically inaccurate” to add a Chinese person to a fictional story about the American Revolution... when the whole fucking thing was kicked off around tea taxes. That’s just silly :rolleyes:

Don’t know if you know this, but tea was grown in China in the 1700s. The British imported tea from Bengal in India and Canton, which is in China; they did it though a company called “The East India Company”. Tea, which was shipped from China into Britain and then re-exported to Britain’s American colonies, formed part of Britain’s controversial taxation agenda for the said colonies during the 1760s and 1770s. The Cohongs, controlling corporations over the Canton trade, warned the British and the Americans, tldr, “Keep your stupid war out of our waters, our Emperor won’t stand for it. Just make sure you pay your fucking debts or else we’re coming for all y’all.”

But yeah, it’s perfectly “historically accurate” to write a story set in the 1700s with every single captain and soldier in the brigade either gay or gay for pay. That totally is accurate and sensible, and to the extent it’s not, it’s merely a believable extrapolation to fit the fantasy element of erotica. And anybody who says otherwise is a jerk who hates gay stories and must be homophobic....

F for fail. Sit down.

These kind of comments, that stress how wrong, silly and also INACCURATE it is to include POC to the fabric of history and especially to pinnacle moments of history are just part of the systemically racist mythology that chokes not only reality but also creativity. And the very audacious self-assurance that you can selectively rewrite history however you want to, and describe whatever fictional story you like while denying fictional stories that have both semi-historical bases and positive meaning to others is the absolute epitome of white privilege.

Having gotten all of that nastiness out in a personal attack do you feel so much better now and a member in good standing in the mob? ;)
 
You might not have spelled it out, but Theresa is described as "a brunette with an olive complexion" and Desiree as "dark". From that, my first guesses would've been Hispanic and Black respectively. After prison, Rodrigo is ID'ed as "Mexican", and Dwight appears to be Black. Plus these minor characters:



You didn't get into racial politics that I remember, but you certainly didn't give the impression that you were thinking of everybody in story-Melissa's world as white.

Yes, true, I was thinking specifically of the prison chapters, in which I only made the allusions you mentioned (Desiree was actually Wabanaki).

In the description of the party that you quoted, the diversity of people is important as an indicator of the different world story-Melissa had entered into. Otherwise, there would have been no reason to note ethnicities.
 
As you know, I believe that it would be a positive step for writers to be conscious of making sure their supporting characters more diverse.

"

As usual, you have interesting thoughts, well and reasonably put.

My views on this subject are evolving. I'm reluctant to say much more, because I suspect that in another week or so I'd probably say something different.
 
Writing about different cultures and races without a great deal of research or life experience is difficult and could ultimately ruin the work and cost a writer their audience.

Worldly writers and those with the time to invest in research can execute a diverse story without offending people due to some historical or cultural faux pas.

There are obvious pitfalls for ALL writers when writing racially and culturally diverse stories. If a writer sprinkles a few people of color with minor roles into a story. they can be accused of tokenism. If a writer makes a person of color a main character and then gives them a white voice they can be accused of homogeny. Conversely, if they attempt to give them a different colored voice they can be accused of stereotyping. Its quite a conundrum.

Attempting to write an authentic racially diverse story without the prerequisite life experiences or research is a recipe for disaster., especially when you consider the inherent pitfalls that even well researched and worldly writers face.

The old adage "write what you know" seems like it could apply here.

Of course that does not mean that writers shouldn't attempt to increase their knowledge about other cultures and races; it means that a story will feel more authentic if the reader gets the sense that the writer has researched or has personally experienced the people and events in a story.
 
Writing about different cultures and races without a great deal of research or life experience is difficult and could ultimately ruin the work and cost a writer their audience.

Worldly writers and those with the time to invest in research can execute a diverse story without offending people due to some historical or cultural faux pas.

There are obvious pitfalls for ALL writers when writing racially and culturally diverse stories. If a writer sprinkles a few people of color with minor roles into a story. they can be accused of tokenism. If a writer makes a person of color a main character and then gives them a white voice they can be accused of homogeny. Conversely, if they attempt to give them a different colored voice they can be accused of stereotyping. Its quite a conundrum.

Attempting to write an authentic racially diverse story without the prerequisite life experiences or research is a recipe for disaster., especially when you consider the inherent pitfalls that even well researched and worldly writers face.

The old adage "write what you know" seems like it could apply here.

Of course that does not mean that writers shouldn't attempt to increase their knowledge about other cultures and races; it means that a story will feel more authentic if the reader gets the sense that the writer has researched or has personally experienced the people and events in a story.

I'm sure there's a middle ground. I assume you intend to include female characters in your stories, but you're not (I believe) a woman, and I think it's fair to say that you do not have a complete grasp of the female perspective.

I understand that a person may be accused of tokenism, and that's it's own rabbit hole to go down. I think the easier question to ask is whether you want to avoid the feared perception of tokenism at the expense of erasing people who are not of your demographic.

Whenever I find myself coming up with a bunch of reasons not to do something (as opposed to one compelling reason), I try to stop and ask myself why I'm invested in coming up with all the reasons. Sometimes the answer to that question teaches me something important. That's not always the case, but it never hurts to stop and ask.
 
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