AwkwardMD and Omenainen Review Thread

[filthytrancendence]

Alright, it's my turn to put my money where my mouth is on the chopping block. Or something.

Seduce Her

I haven't been so happy when something I've finished in maybe ever. I feel like my biggest weakness so far has been endings, and I feel like I really, really nailed this ending. Interested to hear your thoughts!

 

[Omenainen]

@Zeronix
link

I second @AlinaX - never apologize for being British! I for one absolutely loved the British-isms. Arse is such a great, great word. Ass is so wimpy and limp compared to arse.

Your writing is on a level where a lot comes down to personal preferences, so if you are happy with your work (as your readers seem to be), feel free to ignore the below.

I do feel this is a step forward from the first story we reviewed. It’s still a whole lot of telling instead of showing, but you do the telling so beautifully. At times I still feel the telling gets the better of you.

You had more meat to the bone this time, more scenes where you let them interact, but the same ungrounded montage feeling of skipping stones is still present. Especially when you got to the sex you could have stayed with them, going into detail, letting them come to flesh (pun intended), and not gloss it over with “he took me so beautifully.” The story was beautifully told, but I feel it could be tighter and less detached with more in-focus scenes and montages could be used strictly to pass time from one grounded scene to the next.

I was unclear if this was a story about sexual awakening or not. I got the impression that he wasn’t new to the idea of gay - at least sex, but then he was hilariously oblivious as to Cameron’s inclination, and then when you did get to sex you claimed it was his first time. I don’t know if readers in Gay Male love “first time gay” as much as readers love “first time lesbian” in Lesbian category, but underlining it (and tagging it) when it’s present might make sense.

There are these snippets, these moments in time you want to capture, but when viewed from a little bit more distance they don’t really make sense. Like Cameron sleeping on the plane home - Paris to London takes what, twelve minutes? It’s not enough for anyone to fall asleep or “coffee to grow cold in my hand.” It’s a sweet mental image, but it doesn’t fit where it’s put. Or them at the hotel balcony - you never took us there, so I was confused: was this where they had sex? I didn’t think they were outside? How exactly were they positioned on “the balcony couch” that they could cuddle like you proposed?

These inconsistencies remind me of the romance story we just read, so maybe read that review too (link). Maybe read the whole story, so you see how it looks when someone else does it. With your own stories, you know all the pieces you didn’t show us, but they will stand out more when it’s someone else’s story.

I think that the worst problem with the story is the characterization. Cameron is very bland. Ed is, too, but since he’s the narrator we get a clearer picture of his inner landscape. This gives him more relatability and substance. Janine is the best character, even if it stems from being a bit stereotypical. My absolutely favorite scene of the whole story is where they are drinking and Ed puts his foot in his mouth, and that’s only possible because Janine is there. By himself, Cameron is (calm and stoic and quietly supportive) about as exciting as a soggy mitten, and so you end up bailing out of scenes with just Ed and Cameron by doing a kind of montage fadeout.

Cameron’s appeal is his calm, steady nature. Ed is drawn to Cameron because the rest of his life is constant, difficult, and stressful. However, 80% of this story is just Cameron and Ed in a room, which means that for the reader calm and steady is the norm. We’re only ever getting shorter scenes that imply longer periods of high activity, high stress. In this regard, you’re fighting uphill. The opposite premise, a character who has a boring life that is spiced up by a bright, shiny, zany character, is a much easier sell. Most people’s lives are boring, because most of us aren’t Olympians.

That being said, the story did work as is. I think the way forward for you is to write more, tighten that screw, grounding the scenes a bit more, sharpening your characterization, finding just the right balance to really nail it. Just keep doing what you’re doing and you’re going places.

Happy writing!

 

[AwkwardMD]

@filthytrancendence
Link

In your original request, you mentioned how proud you were of the ending, so we’ll start there, briefly, and work backwards; there is no seduction in this story. When asked if she wants to go on a date despite having just met, your FMC inexplicably says yes. When asked if she wants to go home with your MMC despite having spent all of about 5 minutes together, your FMC inexplicably says yes. When asked if she wants to sleep with him despite a total runtime of about 15 minutes at this point, your FMC inexplicably says yes.

These are choices the plot needed her to make, and so she made them.

We will be referring back to these points as we talk a little bit more, as we expand on this, but we’re gonna keep it simple and mostly just talk about how important these moments are.

We have often talked about the concept of realism as a net good, but really we use that term incorrectly; broadly speaking, we want verisimilitude. The difference between verisimilitude and realism is that verisimilitude is just a passable approximation of reality whereas realism does what it says on the tin.

Realism is, at its core, a desirable trait for a story. This is the doorway to being relatable; our lives are real. We are people, and characters are (largely) people. For contrast, try and imagine how two rubber bands would have sex. I could, objectively speaking, write the hottest rubber band-on-rubber band action this world has ever seen, but would that work for any humans? Would anyone think that was hot? Would anyone even think it was interesting?

The point of every piece of work put onto this site, and really all fiction everywhere, is to give your readers a chance to see something through your eyes. That’s how it works. Readers want the characters to be people, because the readers are people. We are able to slot in because of, and through, the similarities. Luke Skywalker starts off Episode IV not knowing anything about the Force, or the Empire, or the rebellion. His life is boring? Wow, he’s just like me! My life is boring! His questions are our questions, and as he grows we root for him. That being said, realism reflects reality, always. It’s kind of a limiting concept in fiction. If you have ghosts, it’s no longer “realistic”. Superheroes, aliens, monsters, vampires, lightsabers, etc; these elements, which make for great stories, are incompatible with the concept of realism, and this is where we reintroduce verisimilitude.

It’s like realism, if X is true. If ghosts exist, then my infinitely curious peace-and-love protagonist would probably be super hyped to talk with one, maybe even be open to the prospect of sex with one. If ghosts exist, then my traumatized protagonist would probably interpret just about every interaction as hostile, and would fight or flee any paranormal signs. Verisimilitude is you letting your characters treat an unrealistic premise as if it was realistic. Questioning things that might not make obvious sense.

This requires you, the creator, to interrogate which parts of your story might not make obvious sense, and then find ways to give yourself the opportunity to address them.

Your MMC is pretty believable. Who among us would pass on sex with a pretty young thing when it’s pushed on us? Who wouldn’t appreciate a spouse who provides reliable marital sex but also sometimes sets us up with side strange? Good job so far. The premise you have here, a husband and wife who play games and keep things spicy, is an interesting elevator pitch, but all of the most interesting parts are happening outside of the story on the page. How did these two people find this outlet for themselves? How did the wife pick this woman? How did she convince this woman? What is this woman’s backstory that she’s this-overwhelmed this-quickly? How did the wife see this going?

A lot of interesting meaty questions that could have fleshed out a different, longer version of this story, but how is not the real problem holding you back.

It’s why.

Let’s walk through the plot in the shoes of the other main character, the girl. She’s previously met some woman, ostensibly a neighbor, who has asked her to deliver a note to her husband. Why would she, though? Try to imagine one of your own neighbors trying to get you to deliver something to their house. How many of us would throw up our hands, no matter what the note said, and say something to the effect of “I don’t want to get involved” ?

She walks up to this older man, hands him the special note. He reads it, and then proceeds to tell her about cameras while getting right up into her personal space. This somehow makes the girl so hot that she spontaneously kisses him. Why would she, though?

He invites her into his house, and she says yes. Why would she, though?

<blowing right past her sobbing at his honesty> He invites her upstairs into his marital bed, and she says yes. Why would she, though?

I want to make it clear at this point that none of these are bad choices, or choices that no woman would make in isolation, but all of them require some nuance. She’d need to be a little bit whimsical, a little bit carefree, a little bit free-love, a little bit naive-but-also a little bit traumatized, and, importantly, a little bit of a bad girl. That’s quite a needle to thread, and this is a character for which the reader has zero insight. Zero backstory. By comparison, the only trait your MMC required was the ability to be horny when a hot young girl approached him.

This girl should have been your main character. Give us access to her inner thoughts, a little bit of her backstory, her history, and her outlook on life. The required ingredients to get a woman like this are rare (hence, verisimilitude vs realism), but not impossible. A little bit of finesse (and a huge change in perspective) would let you craft a woman who fits the order, and then suddenly this is a very different story.

 

[filthytrancendence]

@AwkwardMD, I appreciate your perspective.

Right or wrong, I took the setup as straightforward fact from the perspective of the PoV character. I see what you're saying that my hand as author in choosing how Evelyn responded to him comes off as my making her make the decisions the plot needed her to make.

You're right to feel that way, I think. I created Evelyn through the process of putting her on this page in this story, trying to find in retrospect what kind of person would make the decisions she made. I think I did get there eventually, but I ought to have backed up and brought the audience up to speed with that before dropping her into the scenario with no context for who she is.

Another way to say that is I was too personally invested in the MMC's frame and neglected some of my role as the author of Evelyn's frame. I'm beginning to see I've made a habit of that to some extent, partly as a product of my process. It's definitely something I need to overcome, and I will work on that.

I agree it would very likely be more interesting to tell this story from Evelyn's perspective. I may write that story some day. I'm not sure it does much good to tell myself 'I should have planned and outlined this better when I was writing it' because frankly it probably would not exist if I had tried at that point. The writing of this story helped me grow in some important ways, and learning from the shortcommings of this story are also helping me grow in other important ways.

 

[iwannadobadthingswithyou]

@AwkwardMD and @Omenainen

This is a great thread, guys, thanks for doing this.

If you guys have time, I'd love it if you could have a look at my newest story. It's 2 chapters so far (5 Lit pages in total) of a 4 or 5 chapter series.

Since this is only my second story here, I'm looking for any kind of criticism, good or bad. Don't feel like you have to spare my feelings if you think there are flaws.

My Sister Figured Me Out Pt. 01
My Sister Figured Me Out Pt. 02

Thanks in advance,
A.

 

[Omenainen]

Another way to say that is I was too personally invested in the MMC's frame and neglected some of my role as the author of Evelyn's frame. I'm beginning to see I've made a habit of that to some extent, partly as a product of my process. It's definitely something I need to overcome, and I will work on that.

It’s extremely common to write personal fantasies that work only if identified very closely with the (usually male) protagonist. Overlooking all the kinks and pairings, I’d wager “sexy things happening at a passive, bland guy” is the most often visited trope on Lit. There’s nothing inherently wrong with it, but is it good writing? Usually not. How much of an error that is depends on your goals.