Asserting Yourself

[SweetErika]

Sometimes I have a problem asserting myself, especially when it comes to feeling I've been wronged. I don't believe in asking for an apology, but often I'd like to make the person aware of my thoughts or feelings, and then they can do whatever they want with that, be it an apology, taking action to rectify it, or ignore it.

So, here's an example of a situation, and I'd appreciate your input. What would you say to the other person, or how would you assert your feelings without being rude, antagonistic, or destroying the relationship? Also, would you ask anything of them?

A friend emailed me yesterday saying she hadn't known it was my birthday, she felt bad, and wanted to have lunch this week. Now I'm having trouble with 'I didn't know' because (a)it's a stupidly easy date to remember, (b) she knew it was this month, and if she wanted to know the date, she could have asked me or my husband, and (c) a day earlier, I'd mentioned "birthday dinner" and when she called the night of my birthday to talk to her husband, my husband said we were "cutting the cake." So, yeah, lots of options and clues there, right? That's one issue.

The second, and related one is that her husband called her earlier and left a message, saying he would call later when he was coming home. At 9, she called and demanded to speak to him, then proceeded to scream at him when he said he'd be home in a few hours. They fought, and she called back in an hour or so to apologize. Then, she called a bit later, demanding he come home. He said he wanted to wait until it was safe to drive, and he'd call her when he left. A bit later, she called again, more screaming and fighting. To put it nicely, she's quite controlling, and I don't feel she had any right to continue calling after the second time when she apologized for interrupting because she knew he was safe, and had a promise of a call before he left so she wouldn't worry. To summarize, this second issue is that she seriously disrupted my evening, whether or not she knew it was my birthday. Then, when she "found out" it was my birthday, she failed to recognize or apologize for the disruption.

As I see it, there are three possibilities:
(1) She genuinely forgot about the birthday, but then didn't think enough to apologize for the disruption.

(2) She knew it was my birthday, but ignored that in favor of trying to control her husband, and didn't feel it was important enough to recognize.

(3) She claims to love me as a friend, and that birthdays are very important to her, yet doesn't think enough of me to call, email, or find out when it is.

So, I realize I could let this go, but would prefer to assert myself given the above possibilities. I would like to address her failure to acknowledge or apologize for disrupting my evening, specifically my birthday evening.

Should I do that? If so, how should I approach it in an adult manner?

Other discussion on asserting yourself is also welcome.

 

[Dallass_Drake]

Personally, I would accept her attempt to reconcile and adopt a particularly sardonic demeanor, jokingly lambaste her (Briefly, unless you have a great rapport with this woman) both for forgetting your birthday and for disrupting your evening but, covertly of course, place in the background a seriousness that would suggest your annoyance. Ensure she will ponder your conversing afterwards, likely, upon analyzing the subleties, she will assume the worst and identify your feeling of oppression and, presuming she is at heart a very convivial, likeable person, she will seek to make amends fearing a further deterioration. Course, if a sardonic tone is as alien to you as it is to your friends then you shouldn't take such advice.

Additionally though, if someone chose to confront me with any kind of hostility because I neglected their birthday, I'd likely find them to be pompous cretins. Birthdays are minor occurances in my opinion, regret may follow a realization that I'd forgotten one of a dear friend, but I would then repair the situation in other ways without it being demanded of me. A gentle reminder would be sufficient to inspire these feelings, but I wouldn't mind being confronted in the way I advised upwards since most conversations I have contain elements of mocking amusement. To assert yourself, I'd recommend awaiting better opportunities, where you have suffered greater wrongs.

 

[revolution724]

I don't think I'd take the same approach as the previous poster. My experience is that most people are not good at taking subtle hints, or at least at interpreting them correctly. That is, especially self-centered, controlling people will tend to interpret whatever's given in an indirect manner in as self-protective a way as possible - my experience is that most self-centered, controlling people are deeply insecure, and this is another means of protecting their self-image.

No, I'd think very, very carefully about my words, maybe write a script or something for practice, and then speak to her directly about it. Avoid statements that can be construed as personal attacks or that are likely to trigger defenses (although these may be triggered anyway), but calmly, clearly state your reasons for feeling upset. If the most important goal of the confrontation is to feel as though she's heard and understood you, say so. It might even make sense to ask her to restate to you what you've said so you can tell whether she really got it. So-called "I-statements," as in "I felt like I wasn't important to you when you forgot my birthday, since I think it would have been easy for you to find out when it was," might help to avoid defense-triggering and lead to a more productive conversation.

Good luck, and good onya for working on how to assert your feelings and needs. It can be a very hard thing for a lot of people to do.

 

[SweetErika]

Okay, to clarify, not bothering to find out when my birthday is, then telling me how important it was IS hurtful and irritating to me...if it's that important to you, you'd find out any number of ways, right? Dallass, I do not begrudge people for forgetting my birthday (well, unless it were my parents or hubby...they're all of sound mind, and shouldn't forget). Friends or other family members can forget, and I'm perfectly fine, no reminder or forgiveness necessary.

However, the main issue is her not acknowledging that she might have disrupted my evening in general AND my birthday. I can't see how a reasonable person wouldn't feel bad and acknowledge that...hell, I feel bad when I call during someone's dinner or billpaying efforts.

Thanks for your advice, Dallass, and I'd definitely take it if we were talking about a close friend who had forgotten or just interrupted something, but that's not the case. I let A LOT of things go...way more than most I'd say because I don't feel holding onto them or even asserting myself improves my life any. However, the nature of this particular series of events demands action, I believe. Plus, this is not the first, or even the tenth time I've felt the need to assert myself with this woman, so I don't feel I'm being harsh, nit-picking, or unfair.

Revolution, it sounds like you've dealt with her type before, and I appreciate your advice...it's very good. I'd love some other opinions as well, and if you think of anything else, please post more, but I'm sure I'll end up following most, if not all, of what you've said. They're good reminders and communication tips in general, so thanks for taking the time to write.

 

[Dallass_Drake]

Honestly I meant not to imply you're exaggerating the importance of these events, merely that by conveying to this woman how you truly feel about them could ultimately be damaging. While revolutions advice is entirely reasonable and I couldn't possibly claim that it's an incorrect method (To be honest, I have never had any relations with women that could be classified even vaguely as serious and thus I couldn't possibly claim to know an awful lot on subjects such as this), I just feel that by approaching this matter seriously, if indeed this woman is controlled and domineering, you could be seen as looking only for sympathy and apologies which will, ultimately, put you in her control since you are asking something of her. I feel if you truly want to assert yourself and give a powerful account you need to demand something of her and in this particular situation, as justifiably important as it may be to you, demanding will get you no where as it seems to me she didn't place any kind of importance or feel any true regret for what she did, therefore she may not feel she owes you an awful lot in the way of acknowledgment. This is why I felt a light hearted approach would be more beneficial as it would allow you to convey to an extent (Perhaps not the fullest extent granted) your feelings while at the same time considering that maybe she doesn't see how drastic a faux paux she committed, and thus you put yourself at less risk of seeming vulnerable and sensitive. I think if indeed she does see this as a relatively minor occurance you should first consider whether or not you can convince her of it's larger significance before you attempt to seek reparations, and while I can fully understand why you'd feel a pressing need for action, I think patience would be a worthy consideration.

Consider also her response, as revolutions mentioned she may be inclined to defend herself rather than acquiesce. One thing that doesn't seem to be working in your favour here is that she can discard your concerns simply by mentioning her own, weightier concerns with a loved one. Is it not reasonable to assume you warrant forgiveness for absent mindedness when you're in the process of vehement arguement with a lover? If she's defensive about it she can easily assert herself over you and you should consider your own defence in such outcomes, no offence but I can't see how you would overcome the credibility of such a counterattack unless you had flawless knowledge of the extent of the evident problems she is having with her husband. I think primary of your considerations before taking whatever actions you deem most suitable is how she will respond and whether she feels you're justified in your actions.

 

[SweetErika]

Honestly I meant not to imply you're exaggerating the importance of these events, merely that by conveying to this woman how you truly feel about them could ultimately be damaging. While revolutions advice is entirely reasonable and I couldn't possibly claim that it's an incorrect method (To be honest, I have never had any relations with women that could be classified even vaguely as serious and thus I couldn't possibly claim to know an awful lot on subjects such as this), I just feel that by approaching this matter seriously, if indeed this woman is controlled and domineering, you could be seen as looking only for sympathy and apologies which will, ultimately, put you in her control since you are asking something of her. I feel if you truly want to assert yourself and give a powerful account you need to demand something of her and in this particular situation, as justifiably important as it may be to you, demanding will get you no where as it seems to me she didn't place any kind of importance or feel any true regret for what she did, therefore she may not feel she owes you an awful lot in the way of acknowledgment. This is why I felt a light hearted approach would be more beneficial as it would allow you to convey to an extent (Perhaps not the fullest extent granted) your feelings while at the same time considering that maybe she doesn't see how drastic a faux paux she committed, and thus you put yourself at less risk of seeming vulnerable and sensitive. I think if indeed she does see this as a relatively minor occurance you should first consider whether or not you can convince her of it's larger significance before you attempt to seek reparations, and while I can fully understand why you'd feel a pressing need for action, I think patience would be a worthy consideration.

Consider also her response, as revolutions mentioned she may be inclined to defend herself rather than acquiesce. One thing that doesn't seem to be working in your favour here is that she can discard your concerns simply by mentioning her own, weightier concerns with a loved one. Is it not reasonable to assume you warrant forgiveness for absent mindedness when you're in the process of vehement arguement with a lover? If she's defensive about it she can easily assert herself over you and you should consider your own defence in such outcomes, no offence but I can't see how you would overcome the credibility of such a counterattack unless you had flawless knowledge of the extent of the evident problems she is having with her husband. I think primary of your considerations before taking whatever actions you deem most suitable is how she will respond and whether she feels you're justified in your actions.

Great thoughts, Dallass, and while you may have not had relationships with women, you're quite an insightful fellow.

I ended up telling her I was hurt and angry, that I felt like she had disregarded my feelings, and I expected different behavior. I summed it up with the following:

"I'm not asking for an apology...it's your responsibility to decide if my feelings are justified and take action to make it right if you think they are. I do need a break from the stress and to see consistent effort and respect for my feelings and needs because they're just as important as yours, Husband A's, and Husband B's. I recognize I'm upset right now, and I'm sure that will lessen with time, but once in awhile I need to assert myself and speak plainly because stuff like this doesn't get better if I don't. So, yes, this may sound harsh, but I'm simply expressing my feelings, not your intentions, and I wouldn't be writing at all if my plan was to write you off."

Maybe it was the right way to go, and maybe it wasn't. However, I feel good about asserting myself and being honest (most people, including me, pussyfoot around her all of the time), and if she doesn't recognize the importance of doing so, it's her loss really. I don't want to deal with someone who doesn't care about my feelings, and can't live in a completely one-sided relationship.




Everyone: So, how important is asserting yourself?

 

[karndav]

Erika,
I rarely assret myself unless it comes to my children, otherwises, i have let hurt feelings pass way too often with most people. I am hurt for awhile then i let it go and and try to forget about it. i have found that most people are so caught up in their own lives that they usually don't realize when they hurt you and i just don't like confrontations so it is easier for me to swallow the hurt than talk about it with the person.

 

[TBKahuna123]

Erika, my wife and I have friends like this too. I remember one incident that really torqued me off. First off there are four couples in our little group that always get together for birthdays, etc. We set up that we'd all go out to dinner for this friend's birthday on Saturday night, set this up like two weeks in advance. So she calls me on Friday and says we're moving it to Sunday at 8 because one of the other couples has to work Saturday night and doesn't get off Sunday until 7. I said that's fine but we'll be a little late, like 8:30 because I play hockey until 8. She says fine, then calls me back an hour later and says forget it we're just gonna cancel cause it's too much hassle.

OK fine. Then I find out during the next week that she's all pissed off at me because I chose hockey over her birthday dinner, which wasn't even close to her birthday. Well, having dealt with this same kind of crap before, I didn't just let it go this time. I called her and informed her that he attitude was totally unfair. She had given me two days notice to change our plans, a change that was made to accomodate someone else's schedule, with no consideration for mine. The only accomodation I was asking for was to be 30 minutes late. The other fact is this wasn't just drop in hockey, this was a competitive league. As the team's goalie, I can't just miss a game because we don't have backups, and there was no way I could find a sub in two days. Goalies don't exactly grow on trees around here. I had a committment to 15 other guys on my team, and to just leave them hanging would not be fair to them. What really pissed me off though was the fact that she didn't have the guts to tell me she was pissed, she just talked about it behind my back and got other people pissed off at me who didn't know the whole story. I had one friend say to me that they couldn't believe I'd blow her off to watch hockey on TV. I was shocked, and when they learned the real story THEY felt bad for getting upset with me.

Now I didn't get an apology, and didn't really expect one, but our other friends at least know what really happened, and she knows to listen and not make assumptions anymore. My point is Erika, I think you did the right thing in approaching her about it. Sometimes you just have to go straight at a problem and tell someone when they are being rude or stupid. Hell I'm on the recieving end of that call often enough that I should know. Not quite to the extent you descibed, but...

 

[French Martini]

I think you did the right thing by confronting her. I just have a question... how did she 'not' know it was your birthday when her husband was there? Was his being there planned or did he just happen to stop by? Just curious...

 

[Eilan]

Wow. The could have been posted in your "Power and Control" thread as well.

My opinion is that your friend knew full well what she was doing. Not only was she controlling her husband, but she was also controlling you and your husband. I know people who do this--they take an occasion that's important for someone else and twist things around to make it all about them. Maybe she wasn't intentionally doing that (though I wonder), but that's what happened. The challenge lies in getting your point across to her without putting her on the defensive.

I'm don't really have any advice for you, but I do have a question: Do you want the apology even if you have to ask for it? I guess I'd just question her sincerity if she were put in a situation where she felt as if she had to apologize. However, I feel that she SHOULD apologize, and she should also be mature enough to know that an apology is in order.

Good luck.

 

[silverwhisper]

i have a question: do you want to keep this person in your life? someone who's that selfish isn't someone i'd want in it and i'd look for ways to end the relationship. i can't call it a friendship b/c quite frankly, she sure as hell doesn't act like a friend.

ed

 

[Pyro Paul]

which one do you want? the right way or the adult way?

the right way, you would just casualy insert something along the lines of, 'so what where you doing on my birthday, you were calling my house so much.' or simple ignorrance question of 'did you forget it was my birthday?' just to provide a low agressive opening to her.

the adult way, simply avoid spending alot of time with her. stop conversations short or avoid long drawn out conversations. simply, be less friendly. it may sound cold but confrontation could lead to disaster and if you avoid confrontation, it may get a little worse but it wont be extreamly bad.

i hope that helps.

id advise just casualy bring it up in conversation and idley chat about it. that is if it has happend only this one time, if it is a constant problem id point it out.

 

[SweetErika]

Erika,
I rarely assret myself unless it comes to my children, otherwises, i have let hurt feelings pass way too often with most people. I am hurt for awhile then i let it go and and try to forget about it. i have found that most people are so caught up in their own lives that they usually don't realize when they hurt you and i just don't like confrontations so it is easier for me to swallow the hurt than talk about it with the person.

I do the same, Karen, and I usually feel really good about it, even though I prefer for people to assert themselves and address their issues with me. I don't think yours/ours is a bad way to go, as long as no grudge is held.

Now I didn't get an apology, and didn't really expect one, but our other friends at least know what really happened, and she knows to listen and not make assumptions anymore. My point is Erika, I think you did the right thing in approaching her about it. Sometimes you just have to go straight at a problem and tell someone when they are being rude or stupid. Hell I'm on the recieving end of that call often enough that I should know. Not quite to the extent you descibed, but...

Thanks, TBK. I really make an effort to assert myself in a kind, non-confrontational way most of the time, trying to say what I'd want to hear myself. I think I did so in this case, even though I was very clear about my feelings. Sadly, personalities like her fly off the handle no matter what, and she responded by turning my feelings into crazy accusations and playing the victim.

I think you did the right thing by confronting her. I just have a question... how did she 'not' know it was your birthday when her husband was there? Was his being there planned or did he just happen to stop by? Just curious...

I'm not sure how she didn't know, given we had dated, she knew the month, it's easy to remember (10-10), I'd mentioned birthday dinner, and her husband was coming (which we'd planned last Wednesday). I believe she knew and was so blinded by her rage that she ignored it and then had to come up with some explanation. In her response to my husband, she also mentioned she was hurt she wasn't invited, though the reason was that I knew she had plans that night and she doesn't want to see her husband and I together. At any rate, even if she didn't know, that'd be fine...if the situation were reversed, I would have made it a point to find out, but birthdays are likely more important to me than the average person. It was her failure to acknowledge her behavior that got me on this one.

Wow. The could have been posted in your "Power and Control" thread as well.

My opinion is that your friend knew full well what she was doing. Not only was she controlling her husband, but she was also controlling you and your husband. I know people who do this--they take an occasion that's important for someone else and twist things around to make it all about them. Maybe she wasn't intentionally doing that (though I wonder), but that's what happened. The challenge lies in getting your point across to her without putting her on the defensive.

I'm don't really have any advice for you, but I do have a question: Do you want the apology even if you have to ask for it? I guess I'd just question her sincerity if she were put in a situation where she felt as if she had to apologize. However, I feel that she SHOULD apologize, and she should also be mature enough to know that an apology is in order.

Good luck.

Yep, you nailed it...her entire response email consists of justification, playing the victim, and blaming others.

I didn't ask for an apology because it would ring hollow if I had, and she has a history of asking people for apologies which irritates the hell out of me. As it was, she didn't really apologize, which adds insult to injury in my mind. I wouldn't want an insincere apology, and am glad she didn't give one because it really shows her true colors (I think any semi-caring person feels they should apologize when their behavior causes hurt, even if they have good reason for that behavior).

i have a question: do you want to keep this person in your life? someone who's that selfish isn't someone i'd want in it and i'd look for ways to end the relationship. i can't call it a friendship b/c quite frankly, she sure as hell doesn't act like a friend.

ed

Ed, you're 100% right. Had she responded differently, it's possible we could have built a friendship after a long break and me seeing behavior and attitude changes. However, she's the type of person who almost refuses to admit problems and refuses to change.

So, no, I don't want her in my life, and if I didn't want her husband in my life, I would have stopped trying a long time ago. However, because her husband is extremely important to me (and good friends with my husband), I have to have somewhat of a working relationship with her. My plan is to avoid interacting with her as much as possible, and just be civil when I absolutely have to talk to her.

 

[SweetErika]

which one do you want? the right way or the adult way?

the right way, you would just casualy insert something along the lines of, 'so what where you doing on my birthday, you were calling my house so much.' or simple ignorrance question of 'did you forget it was my birthday?' just to provide a low agressive opening to her.

the adult way, simply avoid spending alot of time with her. stop conversations short or avoid long drawn out conversations. simply, be less friendly. it may sound cold but confrontation could lead to disaster and if you avoid confrontation, it may get a little worse but it wont be extreamly bad.

i hope that helps.

id advise just casualy bring it up in conversation and idley chat about it. that is if it has happend only this one time, if it is a constant problem id point it out.

As I said, I already stated my piece, and didn't ask things like if she forgot my birthday. I will avoid spending time with her because there's no reason I have to see her. Her husband has asked her to communicate with him regarding his relationship with me, so there is less stress for my husband and I, and that should work fine providing she sticks to it.

 

[TBKahuna123]

Sadly, personalities like her fly off the handle no matter what, and she responded by turning my feelings into crazy accusations and playing the victim.

Ding ding ding! Wow I'm having deja vu here. Sounds just like our friend!

 

[Private_Label]

I'm not sure how she didn't know, given we had dated, she knew the month, it's easy to remember (10-10), I'd mentioned birthday dinner, and her husband was coming (which we'd planned last Wednesday). I believe she knew and was so blinded by her rage that she ignored it and then had to come up with some explanation. In her response to my husband, she also mentioned she was hurt she wasn't invited, though the reason was that I knew she had plans that night and she doesn't want to see her husband and I together. At any rate, even if she didn't know, that'd be fine...if the situation were reversed, I would have made it a point to find out, but birthdays are likely more important to me than the average person. It was her failure to acknowledge her behavior that got me on this one.

Um, I'd say it is an issue between the friend and his wife. Don't let yourself be dragged into the power struggle. I'd blame the (male)friend for not taking her insecurity into account when he accepted the invitation and she could not attend with him. Personally I would have to wonder how secure the (friend's) marriage really is if it can't handle him taking time to visit his MARRIED friends.

She had no cause to bring you into her argument with her husband - calling your home to yell at him was an embarrassing situation all the way around.

You have no call to insert yourself into their argument. You like your ex-bf, and that is fine, just don't make a big show of supporting his side of the argument - at least not in front of him and his wife.

If you do have lunch with her, do not allow her to put you in the position of defending him, your husband or yourself - the moment she brings it up, politely say, "I was embarrassed for both of you, and would rather forget the incident." This cues her in that it is not a topic for discussion - but should she continue say "I don't want to be blunt, but I I like you (at least enough to be civil to her right?) both and do not want to feel I have to take sides on this. Can we please not discuss this?" Then you redirect conversation away from the incident - talk about Your Husband, and how dear he is and how you are so happy with him.

Now- knowing that she is insecure about you - do everyone a favor and tell your friend that all invitations include her and he should make a point of bringing her with him when you get together - if only to prevent more embarrassment all around.

*edit* Probably not the answer you were hoping to get :/ and it is just my personal opinion. What the heck do I know?

 

[Cathleen]

Erika, I know you've already handled this but I wanted to say I'm very glad you did speak up for yourself. I agree with much of what has been said, most especially Revolution (another Bostonian ')).

The woman clearly was being selfish that evening, perhaps all the time, but for that moment it was all about her (in her mind). She was not getting the attention she wanted so she did whatever she could to get it. Her husband perhaps could have handled it better too.

But regarding you - as Revolution said, keep the response in the 'I'. Confrontation can be difficult for most of us, but with the focus on you, your thoughts and feelings - the driving force is how you felt. Feelings aren't right or wrong, they are. So by stating your feelings actually keeps the conversation from blowing up as an attack. She can't disput your feelings, the issue is how you felt, yes your feelings are a result of her actions, but the actions are superceeded by feelings now.

I'm glad you spoke up for yourself. Whether we get what we want from the 'offender', the prize is that you spoke your mind and respected yourself. That is always a good thing.

 

[SweetErika]

Um, I'd say it is an issue between the friend and his wife. Don't let yourself be dragged into the power struggle. I'd blame the (male)friend for not taking her insecurity into account when he accepted the invitation and she could not attend with him. Personally I would have to wonder how secure the (friend's) marriage really is if it can't handle him taking time to visit his MARRIED friends.

You're right, it was their issue, we didn't question the argument (just her calling over and over and not recognizing the possible disruption), but she explained/defended the entire thing in her response to my feelings, even though I didn't ask for it. I figured what was done was done, and didn't care why it happened. It's their responsibility to make agreements, and my feelings arise from her lack of consideration that calling could have affected me. She was fine with him accepting my invitation...in fact, she even said we could come to their house while she was gone (however, that turned out to be a ploy so she could control how much time we spent together). It's a lot more complicated than anyone understands, but her husband isn't just our friend...he and I have a romantic relationship (which is completely a joint decision between them...she's not being forced, has made all of the rules, and there's no cheating).

She had no cause to bring you into her argument with her husband - calling your home to yell at him was an embarrassing situation all the way around.

You have no call to insert yourself into their argument. You like your ex-bf, and that is fine, just don't make a big show of supporting his side of the argument - at least not in front of him and his wife.

Yes, that's right about calling, and I don't side with either when I see arguments because that's pointless and not my place.

If you do have lunch with her, do not allow her to put you in the position of defending him, your husband or yourself - the moment she brings it up, politely say, "I was embarrassed for both of you, and would rather forget the incident." This cues her in that it is not a topic for discussion - but should she continue say "I don't want to be blunt, but I I like you (at least enough to be civil to her right?) both and do not want to feel I have to take sides on this. Can we please not discuss this?" Then you redirect conversation away from the incident - talk about Your Husband, and how dear he is and how you are so happy with him.

I will not be having lunch with her, but that's good advice in general.

Now- knowing that she is insecure about you - do everyone a favor and tell your friend that all invitations include her and he should make a point of bringing her with him when you get together - if only to prevent more embarrassment all around.

*edit* Probably not the answer you were hoping to get :/ and it is just my personal opinion. What the heck do I know?

The invitations aren't relevant in this relationship, especially given that she doesn't want to see her husband and I together (again, that's their issue, and they're making the agreements and are choosing a lifestyle...I wouldn't be involved if both of them didn't support it, despite her jealousy). That said, in a different situation, I'd definitely make it a point to include both members of the couple and make everyone as secure as possible, because that's important.

Erika, I know you've already handled this but I wanted to say I'm very glad you did speak up for yourself. I agree with much of what has been said, most especially Revolution (another Bostonian ')).

The woman clearly was being selfish that evening, perhaps all the time, but for that moment it was all about her (in her mind). She was not getting the attention she wanted so she did whatever she could to get it. Her husband perhaps could have handled it better too.

But regarding you - as Revolution said, keep the response in the 'I'. Confrontation can be difficult for most of us, but with the focus on you, your thoughts and feelings - the driving force is how you felt. Feelings aren't right or wrong, they are. So by stating your feelings actually keeps the conversation from blowing up as an attack. She can't disput your feelings, the issue is how you felt, yes your feelings are a result of her actions, but the actions are superceeded by feelings now.

I'm glad you spoke up for yourself. Whether we get what we want from the 'offender', the prize is that you spoke your mind and respected yourself. That is always a good thing.

Thanks, Cate. I completely agree with you, especially about feelings and stating them. Telling her I was hurt and angry was my entire point, and I was careful not to blame, but she turned it around, accused my hubby and i of a hell of a lot of terrible things, and just couldn't believe we would think such horrible thoughts about her (which was out of line because we were just talking about feelings, and never said we thought anything or that she had evil intentions). As you know, it's all right in line with her previous behavior and responses, and there's no point in trying to clarify or refute her statements, so we're done with her. It saddens me that she thinks so poorly of herself and us, but hopefully she'll choose to work on it and find happiness in the future. Self-hatred is likely what all of this boils down to.

 

[Eilan]

Telling her I was hurt and angry was my entire point, and I was careful not to blame, but she turned it around, accused my hubby and i of a hell of a lot of terrible things, and just couldn't believe we would think such horrible thoughts about her (which was out of line because we were just talking about feelings, and never said we thought anything or that she had evil intentions). As you know, it's all right in line with her previous behavior and responses, and there's no point in trying to clarify or refute her statements, so we're done with her. It saddens me that she thinks so poorly of herself and us, but hopefully she'll choose to work on it and find happiness in the future. Self-hatred is likely what all of this boils down to.

Sorry that things had to turn out like that, but I see a lot of that as her decision, or at least the inevitable result of decisions that she's made. Not that she'll see it that way.

 

[SweetErika]

Sorry that things had to turn out like that, but I see a lot of that as her decision, or at least the inevitable result of decisions that she's made. Not that she'll see it that way.

Yeah, you're right, and so am I. I'm really at the point of pitying her now...she's making her life pretty miserable. Thanks for the support, friend!

 

[TBKahuna123]

...she's making her life pretty miserable.

Have you noticed how many people tend to do that? What do you think causes this kind of behavior? Lack of self-esteem and self-confidence?

 

[Cathleen]

<snip>


Thanks, Cate. I completely agree with you, especially about feelings and stating them. Telling her I was hurt and angry was my entire point, and I was careful not to blame, but she turned it around, accused my hubby and i of a hell of a lot of terrible things, and just couldn't believe we would think such horrible thoughts about her (which was out of line because we were just talking about feelings, and never said we thought anything or that she had evil intentions). As you know, it's all right in line with her previous behavior and responses, and there's no point in trying to clarify or refute her statements, so we're done with her. It saddens me that she thinks so poorly of herself and us, but hopefully she'll choose to work on it and find happiness in the future. Self-hatred is likely what all of this boils down to.

For you and hubby, I am very glad that you will disengage from her. We can't control what other think of us, and that it's tough sitting with those feelings. Just remember thoughts and feelings are not facts. So her thoughts are not fact either.

Her actions could also mean she is terribly insecure. Sometimes the root of the behavior is so deep that it is covered by other inappropriate behaviors. She might have to dig down a level or two. It wouldn't surprise me if you see some changes in her behaviors - not immediately but it might happen shortly. Her behavior was so over the top that it might have shaken a few things loose in her. I hope so anyway.

Mostly, I am just so glad for you, (and I hope you know this is sincere and not patronizing), I am so proud of you too.

 

[SweetErika]

Have you noticed how many people tend to do that? What do you think causes this kind of behavior? Lack of self-esteem and self-confidence?

Yes, I have noticed the number of people who do this, and it really bugs me. I think self-esteem is definitely a part of it, but I also get the sense that those people want attention, refuse or have a hard time taking responsibility and changing (much of the time they have an 'it couldn't possibly be MY fault' or "victim" menality), and perhaps even sheer laziness (to think, work on it, and do what's necessary to change). I've noticed a lot of them complain about health, finances, careers, and their social life too...they sort of view life in general as a neverending cycle of defeat, or like the entire world's out to get them.

In the case of this particular woman, complaints abound, and problems are created when there are none. There must be a certain draw to the attention that comes with drama, and it seems a lot of it also has to do with control...like she creates situations so she can control (or feel like she has control) over their outcomes. The other day I suggested an online calendar to keep track of dates for the group's benefit. She immediately dismissed it, enraged that she wasn't asked the right way, assuming it'd take the place of communication, and that it might be inconvenient for her. Much of the idea was for her benefit, and instead of seeing it as a possible solution, she created problems and stress for everyone. There was nothing offensive about the idea or the way she was asked. Everything must be said and done exactly her way, or it can't be done at all. So, once again, she had "negative emotions" and made herself miserable over nothing. It's an interesting approach to life.

 

[TBKahuna123]

Yes, I have noticed the number of people who do this, and it really bugs me. I think self-esteem is definitely a part of it, but I also get the sense that those people want attention, refuse or have a hard time taking responsibility and changing (much of the time they have an 'it couldn't possibly be MY fault' or "victim" menality), and perhaps even sheer laziness (to think, work on it, and do what's necessary to change). I've noticed a lot of them complain about health, finances, careers, and their social life too...they sort of view life in general as a neverending cycle of defeat, or like the entire world's out to get them.

Wow this is like total deja vu! You could be describing the woman I was talking about to a T! I think the need of attention is defintely part of it, and usually this is a manifestation of unhappiness in other parts of their life.

In my situation the one who really suffers in her poor husband. Nice guy, good friends with us, but all three of the other male compnents of this group rarely get to hang with him anymore because his wife never lets him out alone. It's caused us to kind of drift away, which really sucks.

 

[silverwhisper]

erika, i'd point your husband to this thread, frankly. his decision that he wants this person in your two lives is having a cost and i have to wonder if he's aware of just how high a price he's forcing on you, to be blunt.

ed