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[CountryGuy2]

I found an interesting article

I've followed this thread from the beginning. And I thought this was interesting.

[http://www.vox.com/cards/transgender-myths-fiction-facts

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/jtMQ8ONpy0-q_QEEC17BMX9Javo=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3495424/genderunicorn1.0.jpg

 

[Bramblethorn]

A girl friend suggested having a pre-op trans woman in a women's prison with shared facilities etc might mean the trans woman would have opportunity to rape another prisoner... like duh. I thought this friend had more understanding, but apparently not. She accepts me but sees transgender people as hairy blokes in frocks out to invade women's spaces. Some friend huh? "Oh but you're not like that" ffs. Just when you think things are going ok, a friend will scythe your legs off with their transphobia.

Ugh. Because cis women never sexually assault people, right?

That argument in a prison context always seems to me like an admission of incompetence. ANY prison is going to have some tough types. If your security isn't adequate to protect inmates against one trans woman, it's probably not adequate to protect them against cis inmates either.

Reminds me of an article I read the other day about how MichFest, while excluding all trans women as potential rapists, hushed up an actual rape on premises: http://theterfs.com/2015/09/02/the-cover-up-of-a-michfest-rape/

I wonder how many of these people have considered the other side of the coin: if they want trans women going to men's prisons, are they comfortable with trans guys built like Buck Angel going to women's prisons?

 

[stickygirl]

I've followed this thread from the beginning. And I thought this was interesting.

[http://www.vox.com/cards/transgender-myths-fiction-facts

https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/jtMQ8ONpy0-q_QEEC17BMX9Javo=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3495424/genderunicorn1.0.jpg

Hi CG and thanks for the post. Those cards are great

Ugh. Because cis women never sexually assault people, right?

That argument in a prison context always seems to me like an admission of incompetence. ANY prison is going to have some tough types. If your security isn't adequate to protect inmates against one trans woman, it's probably not adequate to protect them against cis inmates either.

Reminds me of an article I read the other day about how MichFest, while excluding all trans women as potential rapists, hushed up an actual rape on premises: http://theterfs.com/2015/09/02/the-cover-up-of-a-michfest-rape/

Ah Michfest.... I've suddenly come over all nauseous
Thanks BT

 

[stickygirl]

Sexual ambiguity - it's all around us
Who would've known that ash trees switch sex every year?
This is all very well but what gender does it feel it is?
Could 'Yew' become a gender neutral pronoun?
boggling

 

[Black13]

I messaged this to someone earlier today. Not sure how much sense it makes, but pick it apart.

I've been thinking a lot about gender identities lately. Everyone has a different definition of what makes a man a man, but only as a way to impose his dominance over another man's definition of himself. This difference exists despite the acknowledgement of chromosomes and genitalia ("real men" [xyz]), which means that gender identity -- "man" -- itself is a facet not of physicality but of identity. Identity cannot be thrust upon a person even through seemingly unanimous decree (otherwise, I'd be Mormon); it's up to the individual to decide his own identity (duh). Therefore, only the individual is capable of deciding his gender. That being said, what makes a man a man? No one feature or action can empirically link an individual to an abstract concept (gender, faith, purpose) except one's desire to link one's self to it. By wanting to be a man, you're a man. That's it. Like any other feature of identity, you are what you identify with.

 

[Messier82]

Reminds me of an article I read the other day about how MichFest, while excluding all trans women as potential rapists, hushed up an actual rape on premises: http://theterfs.com/2015/09/02/the-cover-up-of-a-michfest-rape/

TERFS? Womyn?
A tad too esoteric for a casual reader like me I feel.
If I need to resort to web searches to decipher the text of an article it tends to make me lose the will to read on.

I wonder how many of these people have considered the other side of the coin: if they want trans women going to men's prisons, are they comfortable with trans guys built like Buck Angel going to women's prisons?

A superb example

 

[Messier82]

Sexual ambiguity - it's all around us
Who would've known that ash trees switch sex every year?
This is all very well but what gender does it feel it is?
Could 'Yew' become a gender neutral pronoun?
boggling

Oh that's nothing compared to the gender plasticity of the animal kingdom. I think I posted something recently about the strange animal reproductive strategies of marine fish and molluscs, which includes protandry, protogyny, sequential and simultaneous hermaphroditism... Without a doubt the module on "Animal Reproduction and Life History" was one of the most curious & fascinating subjects we covered in my degree.

 

[Bramblethorn]

TERFS? Womyn?
A tad too esoteric for a casual reader like me I feel.
If I need to resort to web searches to decipher the text of an article it tends to make me lose the will to read on.

TERF = Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist: a brand of feminism that refuses to respect trans people and in particular, trans women. This cartoon sums it up pretty well Sadly common among second-wave feminists like Germaine Greer, although there are much nastier TERFs out there.

 

[Messier82]

TERF = Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist: a brand of feminism that refuses to respect trans people and in particular, trans women. This cartoon sums it up pretty well Sadly common among second-wave feminists like Germaine Greer, although there are much nastier TERFs out there.

Ah... Thanks for the clarification.
The Cathy Brennan link reminds me of some negative experiences I've had with self-confessed feminists, even when I've clearly agreed with their POV I've been on the receiving end of a bunch of 'grief'.

So what's the deal with the deliberate mispelling of 'woman/women' as womyn?

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[stickygirl]

I messaged this to someone earlier today. Not sure how much sense it makes, but pick it apart.

I've been thinking a lot about gender identities lately. Everyone has a different definition of what makes a man a man, but only as a way to impose his dominance over another man's definition of himself. This difference exists despite the acknowledgement of chromosomes and genitalia ("real men" [xyz]), which means that gender identity -- "man" -- itself is a facet not of physicality but of identity. Identity cannot be thrust upon a person even through seemingly unanimous decree (otherwise, I'd be Mormon); it's up to the individual to decide his own identity (duh). Therefore, only the individual is capable of deciding his gender. That being said, what makes a man a man? No one feature or action can empirically link an individual to an abstract concept (gender, faith, purpose) except one's desire to link one's self to it. By wanting to be a man, you're a man. That's it. Like any other feature of identity, you are what you identify with.

I can't pick at this very much and I think you've about nailed it - if only we could self-define as individuals within society. The problems start before we even step out of the door because individuals can't function outside of society ( unless you're a hermit ) - we have to interact. Without going into a tedious summary of how we arrived at where we are now in Western society ( religion, magna carta, more religion), we have to deal with problems today, in an effort to improve tomorrow.

We can give ourselves whatever label we want, but unless the label is accepted by our fellow citizens, we risk being alienated. It's been said before on this thread, that we need labels in order to find like-minded individuals with whom we can push for common causes as a group.

I totally understand the anguish caused to individuals who are trying to understand their gender and/or sexuality. As a trans woman, it has perhaps been easier for me to define my gender because I have always felt it so clearly? For others who might be see themselves as gender queer or gender fluid ( google them ) that feeling is less clearly defined, it comes and goes in waves and, since gender forms as significant part of personal identity, must cause a good deal of dysphoria. I'd urge people who find themselves in that never-never land to reach out to others, via their label (sorry). A problem share is a problem halved and even if the dysphoria is at a low level, being able to understand it is empowering.

 

[haurni]

I wonder how many of these people have considered the other side of the coin: if they want trans women going to men's prisons, are they comfortable with trans guys built like Buck Angel going to women's prisons?

There's a Twitter campaign along these lines in response to US & Canadian 'bathroom bills' called #wejustneedtopee.

So what's the deal with the deliberate mispelling of 'woman/women' as womyn?

This dates back to the 70s, I think, and one of the earlier waves of radical feminism. The idea was to reject the word 'women' because it contained the word 'men' and they wanted to assert that they were independent of and not subordinate to or somehow part of men. I believe the singular is 'womon'.

 

[stickygirl]

TERF = Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist: a brand of feminism that refuses to respect trans people and in particular, trans women. This cartoon sums it up pretty well Sadly common among second-wave feminists like Germaine Greer, although there are much nastier TERFs out there.

I'll go with how Angela Carter described Greer “A clever fool.” She loves the limelight and mischievously throws controversy into her arguments to ensure there is a sound-bite to keep her name on the guest speaker list. For instance, her rumoured support of FGM, because she wanted to criticise western cosmetic surgery by setting the two in context.

There's been a storm in a b-cup in the UK resulting in another of her barking-mad-old-transphobic routines on radio. A petition is trying to ban her from being paid to speak at students of Cardiff Uni - Oo shock-horror-freedom-of-speech-memes Targets are too easy for her to find these days. On the back of her latest radio rant, another commentator described as her as something like "the ugly, bad old sister in pantomime".
Quite.

 

[Bramblethorn]

So what's the deal with the deliberate mispelling of 'woman/women' as womyn?

As far as I know, what Haumi said. (Sorry, should've said - I didn't reply to that part of your question because I wasn't certain of the answer.)

This is interesting, and I popped onto this thread because I had hoped there would be something about this.

AT an event this weekend a lovely woman who I recognised as trans but my partner did not beamed at me and said hello and we passed a few niceties. The fact my husband did not recognise this person as anything other than 'woman' made me think of this case of the trans woman in prison. To us, its neither here nor there, primarily I unidentified her as ' a human being and I liked her dress and she was kind and had a fantastic smile. My husband is similarly unconcerned. Its not an area we are particularly enlightened over, but we are all humans on a planet...trying to make everyone as comfortable as possible.

I can see how to the even less enlightened than us this could be confusing. ( I will admit sometimes I meet people and I am not sure which gender to address them as until introduced properly and how to use gender less addressing in English language can be hard fits a gender neutral person and sometimes one needs patience from the recipient of such address).

Indeed. In my experience, most trans & non-binary people are pretty understanding of occasional mistakes as long as you're trying to get it right. Intentional misgendering is another matter.

I have one friend who I have to address differently depending on context - he's an androgynous-looking trans guy but his documentation IDed him as female and he didn't feel safe outing himself at work, so among friends he's "he" but if I interact with him in a work context then I need to use "she".

I think the nail is hit on the head with the idea that prisoners should expect to be free from sexual attack in prison. Its certainly clear to me that a trans woman would be more appropriately housed in a female prison. I wonder if verbal abuse ( etc) directed at her vary at different establishments?

Unfortunately a lot of people have the mindset that abuse in prison is part of the punishment, even something to joke about, which I find revolting.

I'll go with how Angela Carter described Greer “A clever fool.” She loves the limelight and mischievously throws controversy into her arguments to ensure there is a sound-bite to keep her name on the guest speaker list. For instance, her rumoured support of FGM, because she wanted to criticise western cosmetic surgery by setting the two in context.

I'll have to remember that expression! Yeah, I think she's suffering from relevance deprivation syndrome.

Seeing Greer pull these stunts always makes me a bit sad because she was my first introduction to feminist theory, and I think I benefited a lot from reading some of her work when I was a child. But it's been a long time since she had anything worthwhile to contribute.

 

[4yourpleasureiam]

Sticky

I hope you are doing well and have found your contentment.

 

[Messier82]

This dates back to the 70s, I think, and one of the earlier waves of radical feminism. The idea was to reject the word 'women' because it contained the word 'men' and they wanted to assert that they were independent of and not subordinate to or somehow part of men. I believe the singular is 'womon'.

Ah yes, that makes (warped) sense, thanks for the clarification.

Being old enough to remember the 1970s (and bits of the 60s too) I recall another issue regarding the insistence on replacing "Amen" with "so mote it be" or "so be it". Even as a school kid I knew 'amen' was Hebrew and thought these people were making their selves look pretty stupid

 

[Messier82]

I can't pick at this very much and I think you've about nailed it - if only we could self-define as individuals within society.

It's been a life-long belief of mine that "If only people paid more attention to their own lives and its business, and less to that of other peoples lives then the world be a lot more pleasant all round."

It's never going to happen though because 'human nature' will always win out in the end.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Messier82]

Like all human experience, the coin has two sides:

If you know someone beating up their partner (in the regular non-consensual way that it), yeah, sure, a legitimate cause for concern.

But these days you can call the police in (in the UK anyways) if you see a couple involved in a heated argument, because... arguing is now classed as domestic violence. Bring in the Bobbies! Have someone banged up!!

And if you don't like the way a parent is telling off their child, that's child abuse, call the cops!

Someone tries to mug you, you grab their arm, you've assaulted them.
Get the Rozzers! Onto you that is, not the would be mugger.

Unfortunately, the world has gone mad with the way it applies labels and if the Police think they can make 'a collar' out of it, they don't care because they need to hit targets.

Unless you've ever been falsely accused of something you haven't done, you don't realise how bad the system can be.

Oh.. and a little playful hubby & wife BDSM can easily land someone in trouble if one partner decides retrospectively that it'll make a good little story which can be twisted to suit their new perspective.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[stickygirl]

I have been indirectly involved in reporting suspected child abuse and it was hard work. The charity agencies are of course very good but the standard of response varies enormously between different police forces in the UK.
I don't want to get into a long discussion over policing of child abuse despite it being a subject close to my heart, because you could fill a whole thread. Such a discussion might well make the site owners nervous because it verges on a banned topic.
I'm sure we all agree the system of reporting domestic abuse is not perfect but hopefully it will improve. Thank you both for the insight into your experiences

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[Messier82]

Sorry for the tangent stickygirl!

Moi aussi...

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[stickygirl]

Moi aussi...

Ha
Well we could shift to abuse of trans in the home, spousal veto and employment discrimination .... or frocks