Ask a MtF TG a question

[stickygirl]

I read an article online recently about comedian Dave Chappelle. The article referenced a special on Netflix, "The Closer" in which he allegedly disparages the trans people. I watched the special and I don't understand what some people found to be offensive.

Does anyone have any insight to offer?

Haven't seen it, but humour is a tricky topic. Lesbians can make great jokes about lesbians, black comedians about black people: those kinda jokes are generally positive because we're encouraged to laugh with them. If people make jokes about trans people because they laugh at them, that's a whole different thing.

 

[stickygirl]

Okay guys, wind it in. Here's a piece from Transadvocate that is helpful in understanding why the media has taken up the story ( because £$ as always ).

Perhaps I ought to know more about Chapelle but I don't have Netflix and I've never heard of him. He sounds a bit of a dick and the world is full of dicks like him.

 

[coati]

From the account that StickyG just posted, Chapelle does sound like a dick. I'd seen him on Saturday Night Live before, and he struck me as being full of himself, so I guess the insensitivity described in the account should come as no surprise.

 

[stickygirl]

Twitter has become the go-to for anyone looking to promote themselves and Chapelle has been very shrewd in attacking trans people to do just that. I don't think he cares one way or another but he is now benefitting from the oxygen of media coverage. I didn't know who he was before so 'kerching' = another win for him. Like any troll he should be ignored. Politicians, comedians, basically any vain sociopath will look at what topic is in the news and say whatever they can to be noticed: same with the environment, same with abortion, illegal immigrants. It's all 'me, me, me' attention seeking.

It's sickening that minorities have such effect on our lives and then are hogtied by our own sense of fairness and decency to tolerate it.... eeeeww I sound like my Mum

 

[coati]

Being "hogtied" by decency ain't such a bad thing.

One thing I noticed about this guy when I saw him on SNL was that he was very nervous, the type of nervous that usually means insecurity. It looked like stage fright, actually-- he did this whole thing with smoking a cigarette to mask it the best he could.

He's probably had a difficult time during his own life with being denigrated, and he unfortunately commits the same offense to other minority groups to get a cheap laugh from other insecure people.

 

[stickygirl]

Being "hogtied" by decency ain't such a bad thing.

One thing I noticed about this guy when I saw him on SNL was that he was very nervous, the type of nervous that usually means insecurity. It looked like stage fright, actually-- he did this whole thing with smoking a cigarette to mask it the best he could.

He's probably had a difficult time during his own life with being denigrated, and he unfortunately commits the same offense to other minority groups to get a cheap laugh from other insecure people.

I think that's about it - he has to drag other minorities down to deflect from his own issues. I've only read comments that have been critical of him so far but he's already notching up airtime for Netflix.

Of course the trolls will say '...but Trans are a minority and look at the trouble they cause...' and then we have to spend ages explaining that just because lions are cats that can kill people, not all cats. But that's become the tool of trolls everywhere, including the GB, to make asinine statements that require time and energy to disprove yada yada yada...

 

[coati]

But that's become the tool of trolls everywhere, including the GB, to make asinine statements that require time and energy to disprove yada yada yada...

And the Politics Board, also. I hear you.

I still spend some time tweaking the trolls about being so fearful of accepting "others" and doing advocacy work, but my most regenerating passions happen in the wilderness areas of my region or in the embrace of a friend or lover.

 

[stickygirl]

Here's an interesting piece - about a person who started their first business, attracted investors presenting as a man. Then at 38 out of work, divorced and confused, transitioned and has now started her new business. Her reception as a woman as she tried to attract new investors showed the other side of life: people mansplaining, talking over her and just plain ignoring her should be listened to.

I've thought for a while that trans people have much to teach society about how we treat each other in the work place and on the street. I remember reading about an experiment done years ago where a white guys took a drug to change his skin black to find out how he was received. Of course he knew he could change back but nevertheless it was an eye-opener.

 

[Paradox]

Here's an interesting piece - about a person who started their first business, attracted investors presenting as a man. Then at 38 out of work, divorced and confused, transitioned and has now started her new business. Her reception as a woman as she tried to attract new investors showed the other side of life: people mansplaining, talking over her and just plain ignoring her should be listened to.

I've thought for a while that trans people have much to teach society about how we treat each other in the work place and on the street. I remember reading about an experiment done years ago where a white guys took a drug to change his skin black to find out how he was received. Of course he knew he could change back but nevertheless it was an eye-opener.

The old adage of walking in the other person's shoes has always been true. Perhaps we should replace shoes with skin, though.

 

[stickygirl]

I've been following a story that broke in the press in the UK last week, covering a Sussex university professor who resigned after a campaign was launched by LGBT+ students. The professor has said she believes gender identity does not outweigh biological sex “when it comes to law and policy”, and that people cannot change their biological sex. That translates as transgender and non-binary people must be treated differently or are simply outside of law and policy because of their gender.... which is transphobic.

That by itself might sound like she was expressing free speech and deserved the space to be heard, and the vice chancellor supported her right. However, she has called “many trans women still males with male genitalia“, and argues for them to be banned from women’s single-sex spaces, something protected by the Equality Act 2010. She had claimed not to be transphobic and that "she asserted the rights of trans people to live their lives free ... from discrimination" and so contradicted herself ( lied ).

Students staged a series of peaceful protests over a period of two weeks, but had to do so with face masks because the vice-chancellor had threatened any students who expressed their views against the professor with disciplinary action.

The professor and vice-chancellor are now both gone.

I'm not going to crow over a 'victory' here: a professor of philosophy deserves a job wherever they can find an opening. What angers me is the way she played loose with language: swapping gender and biological distinctions to suit her narrative, then hid behind the language and 'free speech' with a mealy-mouthed "Oh, but I support trans rights [provided they don't affect me]."

It's every bit as bad as a politician saying they aren't racist but calling black kids 'piccaninnies with water melon smiles', or claim you're not homophobic but refer to 'tank-topped bumboys'. Free speech, free speech ... roll up and buy some free speech

 

[LincolnDuncan]

I've been following a story that broke in the press in the UK last week, covering a Sussex university professor who resigned after a campaign was launched by LGBT+ students. The professor has said she believes gender identity does not outweigh biological sex “when it comes to law and policy”, and that people cannot change their biological sex. That translates as transgender and non-binary people must be treated differently or are simply outside of law and policy because of their gender.... which is transphobic.

That by itself might sound like she was expressing free speech and deserved the space to be heard, and the vice chancellor supported her right. However, she has called “many trans women still males with male genitalia“, and argues for them to be banned from women’s single-sex spaces, something protected by the Equality Act 2010. She had claimed not to be transphobic and that "she asserted the rights of trans people to live their lives free ... from discrimination" and so contradicted herself ( lied ).

Students staged a series of peaceful protests over a period of two weeks, but had to do so with face masks because the vice-chancellor had threatened any students who expressed their views against the professor with disciplinary action.

The professor and vice-chancellor are now both gone.

I'm not going to crow over a 'victory' here: a professor of philosophy deserves a job wherever they can find an opening. What angers me is the way she played loose with language: swapping gender and biological distinctions to suit her narrative, then hid behind the language and 'free speech' with a mealy-mouthed "Oh, but I support trans rights [provided they don't affect me]."

It's every bit as bad as a politician saying they aren't racist but calling black kids 'piccaninnies with water melon smiles', or claim you're not homophobic but refer to 'tank-topped bumboys'. Free speech, free speech ... roll up and buy some free speech

I'm curious to know more of her background and how an apparently intelligent person can be so clueless. Is she very old, does she have a personal history of being abused?

 

[stickygirl]

I'm curious to know more of her background and how an apparently intelligent person can be so clueless. Is she very old, does she have a personal history of being abused?

Maybe there's something in her background? She hits out at trans women ( not trans men of course ) because of the possibility of violence against females in hostels/changing rooms but gives zero consideration to violence against the trans women. Presumably Stock would shrug and say 'Oh well - it was their choice'. I hope she hasn't been a victim, but lets face it, most women have, but picking on an event in her past as a gotcha or lightbulb does her a disservice, just as it would to any victim of violence.

When professor Kathleen Stock was awarded a OBE ( civic recognition/medal ) the decision was protested by more than 600 of her academic colleagues
“We do not say Stock should not be permitted to say the things she does. We believe in the principles of academic freedom, and note that objecting to someone being lauded or honoured for their speech simply does not conflict with those principles.

“Academic freedom comes with responsibility; we should not use that freedom to harm people, particularly the more vulnerable members of our community. Conflating concern about the harms of Stock’s work with threats to academic freedom obfuscates important issues.”

I think she belong to the mindset where if you say something often enough and loud enough it becomes a truth for people willing to hear it. Social Media loves a crank

 

[LincolnDuncan]

Maybe there's something in her background? She hits out at trans women ( not trans men of course ) because of the possibility of violence against females in hostels/changing rooms but gives zero consideration to violence against the trans women. Presumably Stock would shrug and say 'Oh well - it was their choice'. I hope she hasn't been a victim, but lets face it, most women have, but picking on an event in her past as a gotcha or lightbulb does her a disservice, just as it would to any victim of violence.

When professor Kathleen Stock was awarded a OBE ( civic recognition/medal ) the decision was protested by more than 600 of her academic colleagues
“We do not say Stock should not be permitted to say the things she does. We believe in the principles of academic freedom, and note that objecting to someone being lauded or honoured for their speech simply does not conflict with those principles.

“Academic freedom comes with responsibility; we should not use that freedom to harm people, particularly the more vulnerable members of our community. Conflating concern about the harms of Stock’s work with threats to academic freedom obfuscates important issues.”

I think she belong to the mindset where if you say something often enough and loud enough it becomes a truth for people willing to hear it. Social Media loves a crank

Thank you for responding. I don't support the abuse of anyone, human or animal. I hope you don't think that I was looking for an excuse for her behavior. I was thinking cause and effect. I wonder what would cause an apparently intelligent adult to believe what she believes. When I see a member of an abused minority striking out, I can understand where that anger originates.

I recently posted what I believed to be a harmless observation on another thread and a person who I suspect belongs to a minority group was upset. I considered that it wasn't my post that set her off but a traumatic event or patterns in her life.

 

[AlexBailey]

Thank you for responding. I don't support the abuse of anyone, human or animal. I hope you don't think that I was looking for an excuse for her behavior. I was thinking cause and effect. I wonder what would cause an apparently intelligent adult to believe what she believes. When I see a member of an abused minority striking out, I can understand where that anger originates.

I recently posted what I believed to be a harmless observation on another thread and a person who I suspect belongs to a minority group was upset. I considered that it wasn't my post that set her off but a traumatic event or patterns in her life.

I understand what you're saying LD.

Cause and effect doesn't necessarily equate to justification, yet it can explain why a social dynamic exists. It's part of the "us-versus-them" dynamic - a psychological phenomenon that pervades society and human history.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/finding-new-home/201908/the-psychology-us-vs-them

"...the mere categorization of people into an us and a them is enough to produce hostilities."

I've known and lived within a lesbian community for several years before I'd heard and embraced the term "non-binary." I was friends with many girls who broadly scapegoated men, some of them freely said they considered me an exception to the toxicity of males, others gave me no pass whatsoever, even ostracizing my girlfriend because they felt she had turned her back on the lesbian community by being in love with someone with a penis.

Many of these girls were animal rights activists, yet they justified hate against hetero couples as "breeders" who promoted the subjugation of women. Many were victims of abuse and many more supported the belief that society as a whole promotes the victimhood of women. Regardless of the cause, it is prejudice, pure and simple. Many of them supported "wimin only safe spaces" and felt that sides needed to be taken and reinforced to protect women in an ongoing climate of social warfare.

The us-versus-them dynamic seems to be a part of human nature that dehumanizes others, and can allow otherwise good people to justify discrimination - even to the point of violence in the belief that they are "defending their clan."

 

[LincolnDuncan]

I understand what you're saying LD.

Cause and effect doesn't necessarily equate to justification, yet it can explain why a social dynamic exists. It's part of the "us-versus-them" dynamic - a psychological phenomenon that pervades society and human history.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/finding-new-home/201908/the-psychology-us-vs-them

"...the mere categorization of people into an us and a them is enough to produce hostilities."

I've known and lived within a lesbian community for several years before I'd heard and embraced the term "non-binary." I was friends with many girls who broadly scapegoated men, some of them freely said they considered me an exception to the toxicity of males, others gave me no pass whatsoever, even ostracizing my girlfriend because they felt she had turned her back on the lesbian community by being in love with someone with a penis.

Many of these girls were animal rights activists, yet they justified hate against hetero couples as "breeders" who promoted the subjugation of women. Many were victims of abuse and many more supported the belief that society as a whole promotes the victimhood of women. Regardless of the cause, it is prejudice, pure and simple. Many of them supported "wimin only safe spaces" and felt that sides needed to be taken and reinforced to protect women in an ongoing climate of social warfare.

The us-versus-them dynamic seems to be a part of human nature that dehumanizes others, and can allow otherwise good people to justify discrimination - even to the point of violence in the belief that they are "defending their clan."

I agree with 99 percent of what you posted. I’m not sure that it is human nature to discriminate against others. I think that humanity is spiritually evolving very slowly. We are all at different stages of evolution. People who discriminate against others are at a lower stage of evolution. Anyone who is truly spiritual doesn’t discriminate against other life forms.

 

[Crios]

...However, she has called “many trans women still males with male genitalia“, and argues for them to be banned from women’s single-sex spaces, something protected by the Equality Act 2010.

My soon-to-be brother-in-law tried that BS on me back in July when I was visiting. In one sentence he'd say "I've got nothing against gay/trans people" and the next he was complaining that anyone could say they were of a different gender and use that to go into a single sex restroom and rape little girls. Just made me sick and angry.

This same clown asked me a few days later how the German people could've allowed Hitler to do the things they did to jews, etc. Taking his comment about LBGTQ people "raping" kids as an example, I told him Hitler told his base that marginalized groups (Jews, gays, immigrants) would steal their jobs, rape their women and kidnap their children. Once you get people to fear others, it's easy to turn that into hate and that's what Hitler did. I could see the lightbulb go on in my B-I-L's eyes when he realized all of his views on the subject were now exposed as bullshit. Didn't change his views though.

 

[Crios]

Whenever someone starts a statement with “I have nothing against [insert name of hated minority here]…” you know what is going to follow is going to be a bunch of hateful comments.

Exactly! I knew that's where he was going.

 

[stickygirl]

This is Trans Awareness week! I may have done this before, but lets make it musical

Here's a rare live performance of True Colours, Cyndi

Our true colours are the pink blue and white

 

[stickygirl]

Fun question
Are men an acquired taste, like carrots? I never liked carrots when I was a kid but back then eating carrots was something the grown-ups seemed to enjoy. Now I love carrots and roast them, put them in salads and eat them raw. All the same, if I need some comfort food, I'm back to pizza with the girls

 

[AlexBailey]

Fun question
Are men an acquired taste, like carrots? ...

Lol. Carrots. Really? Love the metaphor.

Let just say that I was never encouraged to try carrots when I was a kid... I remember overhearing my sister and other girls talking about how sweet and smooth carrots could be, and how they would love to try a certain varieties and different preparations....

For years I thought it was strange that anyone would think to try a carrot. The thought just never appealed to me until I heard a guy talking about how much he liked watching a girl sampling his carrot... how she seemed to love it and looked so beautiful as she made him feel so good about his culinary delight. Although I've only had a few, I've loved the idea of eating carrots ever since.

That said, while I haven't been to every restaurant, I would be happy to try just about anything that was known to be safe at least once - even some more exotic dishes (as long as they don't smell bad.)

I understand that you don't need to have everything with every meal - I like different faire for different moods. I only wish I had more variety in my life.


I hope that was too abstract...

 

[stickygirl]

Welcome Golden C - our paths have crossed before and I'm already an admirer

TY both for your replies but I think my humour has obscured the real question. I've not really had a MF relationship since I transitioned, perhaps because I felt 'safer' with FF? I think that was because I had more in common with another woman and besides, I remain fairly misandristic. I was a cauliflower girl until Mr Carrot came along.

Without disappearing down the underage rabbit hole, perhaps both sexes have early crushes on same-sex heroes? There will be many exceptions but generally girls prefer the company of girls, boys of boys, before hormones start messing with our heads. After that point, girls replace My Little Pony with teen-band-boys and boys crush on anything with a spine or a hole or a carrot.

End of the day, it's all about the person, not what's between their legs and it takes all of our teen years, and some way beyond, to figure that. Both carrots and cauliflowers have their good points but it's their pumpkin that matters most. Sex can be dazzling but I believe our path in life is set before the hormone bomb explodes - it can take the rest of lives to realise what it is.

When I was a baby carrot I loved science: therefore "I couldn't be a girl" so "what's with that boy wearing necklaces and her sister's dresses? Just a phase, obviously". Happily, my school encouraged girls into STEM topics so the roadblock of "your child likes science, so is a boy" had a diversion sign, "girls do science too and she rocks that dress". Clearly if I had hugged the mane off MLP or painted slapper lipstick on a Ballerina Doll, I would have provided less ambivalent signals to the wise old people who 'wanted to help' with 'loving advice' such as suggestions to my mother that she needed to rub me in mud more often, talk in a positive way about Ken Doll and provide me with a father figure.

I love it that kids can end up confounding their parents ( and grand parents ) expectations and it gives me the fuzzies to see my cousins raising their little families with so much love and encouragement. One nephew is autistic and he's obsessed with Kaiju, flesh eating zombies and lego, while his sister, 7 going on 27, lives in a world of sparkles and an already precocious attitude to boys and men. Both their parents are teachers and very good ones, who picked up their boy's ASD early and work around his preferences. They don't push their kids into any pre-determined shape - they simply encourage and provide a safe, reliable home life in which to grow.

Sorry I'm rambling... but anyway, there's a new Prime series Always Jane ( relax - not me! ) about a teens trans girl in New Jersey. I've read the reviews and watched the first of the four-parter docu-diary. The critics are complaining that it isn't dynamic enough, that we don't witness the decision-making processes, the doubts, the fears and that it's perhaps a little dull? Hurray for that! We need media coverage that shows trans folk as a bit dull, somewhat ordinary, just normal and able to use the appropriate bathroom without causing more than a ripple in the pan. That doesn't mean we should face up to transphobia with silence, but showing we are regular people with a medical condition might help let the wind out of the gas-bags that want to bully and victimise. If we push back too hard, too vocally, then we get labelled as crazies needing a slap; if we let the Terfs continue to make fools of themselves, then maybe society will see them for the antagonists they truly are.

...as ever, I'd welcome your thoughts...

 

[AlexBailey]

....

End of the day, it's all about the person, not what's between their legs and it takes all of our teen years, and some way beyond, to figure that. Both carrots and cauliflowers have their good points but it's their pumpkin that matters most. Sex can be dazzling but I believe our path in life is set before the hormone bomb explodes - it can take the rest of lives to realise what it is.
....

...as ever, I'd welcome your thoughts...

Lol. Taking the garden path may have been a bit too obscuring. I very much agree with what Stickygirl said in the quote above.



Gender has always been a confusing issue for me - who I am as well as who I'm attracted to both platonically and sexually. My main attraction has always been tomboys. I've always wanted to hang out with them and I've always wanted to be one.

As a small kid it was fine and even encouraged for me to pass as a girl so I could tag along for some of my older sister's activities. My mom did that for convenience and I remember being outed but still allowed in the dance and theater production we were working on.

I was young so a lot of the details are fuzzy, but I remember my parents having arguments about proper influence, with my dad insisting that I needed to be around other boys. I did okay with that but I liked hanging out with my sister and her friends more - right up until they decided that boys are gross and I was just like the rest of them. Lol. Terfed at seven years old.

By then, (in the late seventies) I liked doing all of those things considered "boy" activities, so that was what I got signed up for - nevermind that I liked the "girl" stuff too. When a tomboy would end up hanging out with the boys I would gravitate towards her - often becoming close friends. The same thing happened between me and the effeminate boys. I remember my mom saying confusing (and probably hopeful) things like about how "smooth" I was with the girls and how I obviously wasn't gay.

My first crush was on Jodie Foster, mostly because I wanted to be her, but oh my god was she yummy!

Puberty sucked. I wanted to be seen as soft and pretty at one moment, and tough and strong the next. I liked both kinds of attention. I was attracted mostly to girls but I was jealous of the girls who had boyfriends or the ones that the boys liked. Cheerleaders were my heros - athletic and pretty... and I've been lucky to know a few with the alt-edge that I like. They got to go to training camps together and were a squad - and I loved their uniforms

I had attractions to girls and femme guys and I had a nebulous fantasy of being desired by some big handsome hunk but I could never put a face to it - never found a masculine guy I was into... then I discovered butch girls and had some crazy fantasies.

I lived with lesbians for several years and I think would still be living that life if I didn't have a penis. at one point I seriously considered transitioning and brought it up to my girl friends as a "what if?" That's when I first heard about the TERF concept. I'd known there were lesbians who would never accept me in their community as a guy, but I hadn't thought there would be a problem if I went trans. It really hit me hard and opened my eyes to how sexist the lesbian community can be. Before that I was happy to be part of the crew, even if I was different. I knew my girlfriend took shit from some friends over being with a "nut-sack", but we also had a few friends who liked to cross the line. I was asked to show and tell, and share on several occasions.

I didn't expect everyone to accept me, but the TERF thing hurt. It was about that time that I decided that I definitely wanted to have a family and my gf didn't, so my lesbian days were over.

I tried a lot of things for a while, mostly with straight girls but also with some guys. I learned the hard way about there being so many flavors of carrots. I guess I kind of thought a guy was a guy was a guy... but then I hooked up with a few. Top? Bottom? Switch? Bear? Femme? Kissing?... Who the fuck am I?

I'm queer. Almost completely queer, both by gender and sexuality. And while that may seem accommodating and open for anyone - it isn't. There are very few other people who can fit with me in the way a partner should be able to. I think my ideal is to be with a small family group of like-minded people. I'm most attracted to girls, but I'd love to have a big strong sweet smart guy who wanted me to be his gurl. It's probably just another flavor - a carrot I've never tried, but it sounds delicious.

My monogamous straight hetero marriage is wonderful in so many ways that matter - unfortunately, sexual satisfaction is not one of them.

Thanks for the conversation, Sticky

 

[coati]

Vegetable priorities

I agree that with regard to having dazzling sex, pumpkins matter the most, no matter what the gender orientation may be among the lovers.

 

[stickygirl]

As I am an admirer of you!

I have had many, many relationships with many different sorts of people. I have also transitioned, detransitioned, and transitioned again. I had relationships before my transition, during the first, during my detransition, and again now I sit here typing this being engaged and having completed my consultation for bottom surgery. So, I can understand feeling safer with FF relationships, but from a different perspective.

~snip~

As someone with ASD, it's cool to hear about children and adults makin' it who are also autistic. We are all very different from each other, as neurotypical people are also all extremely different from one another. I plan on having children with my fiancé once we are settled-- Something we have discussed is this idea that, no matter what happens, the kid we get is the kid we get. And we give the best we got to who we are dealt. I have that mentality because of my ASD and my OCD (treated, thankfully). Just need to do our best for our children, because if we adopt them, then we are responsible for them and we should love and support them. They didn't ask to be brought into the world, but my man and I will give them a loving home

~snip~

TY for sharing - it all helps the message on Lit

Well colour me pink, green and blue - another ASD trans person.... 'but, but the link is purely coincidental and unfuckinproven.'

A fun thing about our ASD attitude is that gender is something NTs stress over and we get to watch. We're like 'Gender, whatever... but my, I love that dress'

Other Lit ASD notables are Bramblethorn who is scarey smart, super knowledgeable non-bin/queer. Brambles has written loads of thoughtful erotic stories here and has given me lots of helpful advice and encouragement - I wish we lived closer. Dolf hangs out in the GB, is kinda prickly, like the big sis you're respectful of and she has a gorilla husband. I'm sure there are plenty of others - Lit's an easy place to be and interact.

The Always Jane doc is pretty good and not at all cringey, which I'd kind of expected. Quite watchable with tissues at the ready.

 

[stickygirl]

Nice link GC! Sounds like progress is being made now, where before it was too small a study to be worth while. I heard that the main trans clinics in the UK are now regularly screening for ASD.
I see Baron Cohen is in the article... have you seen him talk, describing ASD males as 'ultra-masculine' in their personalities or some such BS. If anyone needs assessed it's him.