Are we really that sick?

KillerMuffin

Seraphically Disinclined
Joined
Jul 29, 2000
Posts
25,603
"A generation ago, psychiatrist D.L. Rosenhan fueld the debate on defining mental illnes when he published the results of an experiment in which he fooled twelve mental hospicals in five states on the West and East Coasts (including some of the most prestigious) into admitting people who had no history of mental illness. In the admissions interview, his volunteers pretended to have heard a voice say a word such as "thud," "hollow," or "empty." Otherwise, they gave correct life histories except for their names and occupations. Diagnosed as schizophrenic, each volunteer was admitted.

"Thereafter, the pseudo-patients acted nromally, no longer claiming to hear voices. All the staff, however, reacted to them on the basis of the prior diagnosis, no their current behavior. One humorous example occurred when one of the staff witnessed a pseudo-patient taking notes of what was happening, viewed this as a pathological symptom, and wrote down that the 'patient engages in note-taking behavior,' which apparently was fine for the staff member to do, but not the patient.

"Interestingly, the real mental patients almost immediately detected the normality of the pseudo-patients, and insisted they were either academics or journalists who were 'checking up on the place.' No one on the staff ever found out, thought. The pseudo-patients remained hospitalized anywhere from seven to fifty-two days, averaging nineteen days each. Even then, they were released because their schizophrenia was 'in remission.'

"After publication of this study, officials at another mental hospital scoffed at the findings and said that they could always detect a phony patient. Rosenhan accepted the challenge and said he would send them phony patients. The hospital, its staff alerted, identified forty-one imposters sent by Rosenhan over the next three months. Actually, he had sent no one, and all forty-one cases had been genuine. Once again, he demonstrated the subjective nature and difficulty in diagnosing mental disorders. In the intervening years since this study, the difficulty of recognizing mental disorders--whether by other family members or by professionals--remains."


Do you think we over-diagnose mentally illness?

"According to psychatrist Thomas Szasz, mental disorders are not illnesses but an unconscious excuse to avoid an unpleasant reality. Some social factor--an unbearable personal and emotional situation, say, or an unresolved problem in living--causes the person unable to deal with the problem to adopt a defensive strategy to escape one role and assume another. Since the psychiatrist makes a value judgement based on his or her behavioral norms, identified mental illness is often a 'myth' that penalizes people with involuntary treatement, thereby depriving them of their freedom and the opportunity to face responsibility."

An interesting statistic:

"An inverse correlation exists between social class and mental disorders. Members of the lower classes have higher rates of mental disorder and people of higher socioeconomic status have lower rates.

"Lower-class people are less likely to recieve treattment; but their rate of hospitalization is much higher, and their stay in those mental hospitals is much longer. Middle and upper class Americans are more likely to use outpatient or expensive private facilities; and if institutionalized, they tend to remain in the facility for a relatively brief period. Psychotherapy is the most common treatment for the more affluent, whereas drug treatment or electroshock therapy are more common treatments for lower-class patients."

Thoughts?
 
KillerMuffin said:
"A generation ago, psychiatrist D.L. Rosenhan fueld the debate on defining mental illnes when he published the results of an experiment in which he fooled twelve mental hospicals in five states on the West and East Coasts (including some of the most prestigious) into admitting people who had no history of mental illness. In the admissions interview, his volunteers pretended to have heard a voice say a word such as "thud," "hollow," or "empty." Otherwise, they gave correct life histories except for their names and occupations. Diagnosed as schizophrenic, each volunteer was admitted.

"Thereafter, the pseudo-patients acted nromally, no longer claiming to hear voices. All the staff, however, reacted to them on the basis of the prior diagnosis, no their current behavior. One humorous example occurred when one of the staff witnessed a pseudo-patient taking notes of what was happening, viewed this as a pathological symptom, and wrote down that the 'patient engages in note-taking behavior,' which apparently was fine for the staff member to do, but not the patient.

"Interestingly, the real mental patients almost immediately detected the normality of the pseudo-patients, and insisted they were either academics or journalists who were 'checking up on the place.' No one on the staff ever found out, thought. The pseudo-patients remained hospitalized anywhere from seven to fifty-two days, averaging nineteen days each. Even then, they were released because their schizophrenia was 'in remission.'

"After publication of this study, officials at another mental hospital scoffed at the findings and said that they could always detect a phony patient. Rosenhan accepted the challenge and said he would send them phony patients. The hospital, its staff alerted, identified forty-one imposters sent by Rosenhan over the next three months. Actually, he had sent no one, and all forty-one cases had been genuine. Once again, he demonstrated the subjective nature and difficulty in diagnosing mental disorders. In the intervening years since this study, the difficulty of recognizing mental disorders--whether by other family members or by professionals--remains."


Do you think we over-diagnose mentally illness?

"According to psychatrist Thomas Szasz, mental disorders are not illnesses but an unconscious excuse to avoid an unpleasant reality. Some social factor--an unbearable personal and emotional situation, say, or an unresolved problem in living--causes the person unable to deal with the problem to adopt a defensive strategy to escape one role and assume another. Since the psychiatrist makes a value judgement based on his or her behavioral norms, identified mental illness is often a 'myth' that penalizes people with involuntary treatement, thereby depriving them of their freedom and the opportunity to face responsibility."

An interesting statistic:

"An inverse correlation exists between social class and mental disorders. Members of the lower classes have higher rates of mental disorder and people of higher socioeconomic status have lower rates.

"Lower-class people are less likely to recieve treattment; but their rate of hospitalization is much higher, and their stay in those mental hospitals is much longer. Middle and upper class Americans are more likely to use outpatient or expensive private facilities; and if institutionalized, they tend to remain in the facility for a relatively brief period. Psychotherapy is the most common treatment for the more affluent, whereas drug treatment or electroshock therapy are more common treatments for lower-class patients."

Thoughts?

I like grapes.
 
Szasz was an asshole. What should we do? Empty the psych wards completely?
 
KillerMuffin said:
"A generation ago, psychiatrist D.L. Rosenhan fueld the debate on defining mental illnes when he published the results of an experiment in which he fooled twelve mental hospicals in five states on the West and East Coasts (including some of the most prestigious) into admitting people who had no history of mental illness. In the admissions interview, his volunteers pretended to have heard a voice say a word such as "thud," "hollow," or "empty." Otherwise, they gave correct life histories except for their names and occupations. Diagnosed as schizophrenic, each volunteer was admitted.

"Thereafter, the pseudo-patients acted nromally, no longer claiming to hear voices. All the staff, however, reacted to them on the basis of the prior diagnosis, no their current behavior. One humorous example occurred when one of the staff witnessed a pseudo-patient taking notes of what was happening, viewed this as a pathological symptom, and wrote down that the 'patient engages in note-taking behavior,' which apparently was fine for the staff member to do, but not the patient.

"Interestingly, the real mental patients almost immediately detected the normality of the pseudo-patients, and insisted they were either academics or journalists who were 'checking up on the place.' No one on the staff ever found out, thought. The pseudo-patients remained hospitalized anywhere from seven to fifty-two days, averaging nineteen days each. Even then, they were released because their schizophrenia was 'in remission.'

"After publication of this study, officials at another mental hospital scoffed at the findings and said that they could always detect a phony patient. Rosenhan accepted the challenge and said he would send them phony patients. The hospital, its staff alerted, identified forty-one imposters sent by Rosenhan over the next three months. Actually, he had sent no one, and all forty-one cases had been genuine. Once again, he demonstrated the subjective nature and difficulty in diagnosing mental disorders. In the intervening years since this study, the difficulty of recognizing mental disorders--whether by other family members or by professionals--remains."


Do you think we over-diagnose mentally illness?

"According to psychatrist Thomas Szasz, mental disorders are not illnesses but an unconscious excuse to avoid an unpleasant reality. Some social factor--an unbearable personal and emotional situation, say, or an unresolved problem in living--causes the person unable to deal with the problem to adopt a defensive strategy to escape one role and assume another. Since the psychiatrist makes a value judgement based on his or her behavioral norms, identified mental illness is often a 'myth' that penalizes people with involuntary treatement, thereby depriving them of their freedom and the opportunity to face responsibility."

An interesting statistic:

"An inverse correlation exists between social class and mental disorders. Members of the lower classes have higher rates of mental disorder and people of higher socioeconomic status have lower rates.

"Lower-class people are less likely to recieve treattment; but their rate of hospitalization is much higher, and their stay in those mental hospitals is much longer. Middle and upper class Americans are more likely to use outpatient or expensive private facilities; and if institutionalized, they tend to remain in the facility for a relatively brief period. Psychotherapy is the most common treatment for the more affluent, whereas drug treatment or electroshock therapy are more common treatments for lower-class patients."

Thoughts?

I think you have too much time on your hands to think, fucker........oops wrong thread!:D
 
Yes, I think we overdiagnose.

My main concern at this time is the overdiagnosis of ADD- & the resulting drug therapy. Of course some kids like Ridalin to get high, & buy it from other kids, when all they'd really need to do is fake Attention Deficit Disorder.
 
Many thoughts:

1) Once diagnosed, the mental health and human services community will identify you by your diagnosis rather than your current affect or situation. Hence, the treatment of the pseudo patients.

2) Szas was an asshole. There is more evidence than ever before to attribute many mental illnesses to physicological cause and effect. Having diabetes is comparable to depression. Do the treatment and be okay.

3) Mental illnesses and mental disorders are two very different things. Behavioral disorders are not necessarily treatable physiologically even though some of the symptoms of the disorder are treatable. Someone with a Personality Disorder may experience depressive episodes and require treatment. Mental illnesses are not behaviorally based even though the diagnosis is generally made based on behavior.

4) We do diagnose too often. A diagnosis , whether in the mental health field or by your medical doctor can only serve one purpose, to obtain services. Insurance companies have a rock solid hold on medical treatment and will not pay for many things unless their is a diagnosis. Unfortunately, those diagnosis (plural?) will follow you.

5) Over diagnosing? Happens when someone has an agenda. Sometimes, children are diagnosed ADHD and placed on meds because they are disruptive in class. Soemtimes, the issue is allergies or adjustments to family or life changes.

Then, once diagnosed, normal developmental behavior gets extra attention and can be seen as another symptom. i.e. the note taking, or a six year old who doesn't follow directions.

My favorite exampe of this is when child travels three hours in a car to an evaluation. Several times I have read reports of "distractability and abnormally high levels of activity" during the interview. NO shit! The kids just sat for three hours :D

6) Social classes? Well there may be some truth in that. It depends on what you call a mental illness. Many in the lower classes are treated for depression and anxiety...no wonder? If you can't ensure housing and food for your family, soemthing is going to suffer somewhere.

AS for the more extreme mental illnesses, it isn't unusual to have the "eccentric rich old lady living on the hill." That eccentric lady might crack under the pressure of making a living.

Disclaimer: I am not a clinician and all of what I said might be bullshit.

I refer to depression in my examples as that may be the condition litsters have the most experience with.

:D
 
Re: Many thoughts:

MissTaken said:
1) Once diagnosed, the mental health and human services community will identify you by your diagnosis rather than your current affect or situation. Hence, the treatment of the pseudo patients.

2) Szas was an asshole. There is more evidence than ever before to attribute many mental illnesses to physicological cause and effect. Having diabetes is comparable to depression. Do the treatment and be okay.

3) Mental illnesses and mental disorders are two very different things. Behavioral disorders are not necessarily treatable physiologically even though some of the symptoms of the disorder are treatable. Someone with a Personality Disorder may experience depressive episodes and require treatment. Mental illnesses are not behaviorally based even though the diagnosis is generally made based on behavior.

4) We do diagnose too often. A diagnosis , whether in the mental health field or by your medical doctor can only serve one purpose, to obtain services. Insurance companies have a rock solid hold on medical treatment and will not pay for many things unless their is a diagnosis. Unfortunately, those diagnosis (plural?) will follow you.

5) Over diagnosing? Happens when someone has an agenda. Sometimes, children are diagnosed ADHD and placed on meds because they are disruptive in class. Soemtimes, the issue is allergies or adjustments to family or life changes.

Then, once diagnosed, normal developmental behavior gets extra attention and can be seen as another symptom. i.e. the note taking, or a six year old who doesn't follow directions.

My favorite exampe of this is when child travels three hours in a car to an evaluation. Several times I have read reports of "distractability and abnormally high levels of activity" during the interview. NO shit! The kids just sat for three hours :D

6) Social classes? Well there may be some truth in that. It depends on what you call a mental illness. Many in the lower classes are treated for depression and anxiety...no wonder? If you can't ensure housing and food for your family, soemthing is going to suffer somewhere.

AS for the more extreme mental illnesses, it isn't unusual to have the "eccentric rich old lady living on the hill." That eccentric lady might crack under the pressure of making a living.

Disclaimer: I am not a clinician and all of what I said might be bullshit.

I refer to depression in my examples as that may be the condition litsters have the most experience with.

:D

Well said!
 
KillerMuffin said:
According to psychatrist Thomas Szasz, mental disorders are not illnesses but an unconscious excuse to avoid an unpleasant reality. Some social factor--an unbearable personal and emotional situation, say, or an unresolved problem in living--causes the person unable to deal with the problem to adopt a defensive strategy to escape one role and assume another. Since the psychiatrist makes a value judgement based on his or her behavioral norms, identified mental illness is often a 'myth' that penalizes people with involuntary treatement, thereby depriving them of their freedom and the opportunity to face responsibility."

I think this more often true than not.
 
Re: Re: Are we really that sick?

Lasher said:
I think this more often true than not.

Ummm if you separate "disorder" from "illness", there are many disorders that are triggered or brought on by trauma or life circumstances.
 
KillerMuffin said:
"According to psychatrist Thomas Szasz, mental disorders are not illnesses but an unconscious excuse to avoid an unpleasant reality. Some social factor--an unbearable personal and emotional situation, say, or an unresolved problem in living--causes the person unable to deal with the problem to adopt a defensive strategy to escape one role and assume another. Since the psychiatrist makes a value judgement based on his or her behavioral norms, identified mental illness is often a 'myth' that penalizes people with involuntary treatement, thereby depriving them of their freedom and the opportunity to face responsibility."

I was in a good mood until I read this. My initial thought was "what utter bollocks", but it is expressed in a way that seems plausible to those who haven't experienced it from the inside - it is a self-consistent idea. To those that have experienced it, it loads upon them further guilt and paranoia, "what if I'm just faking all this?".

When I first started hearing voices and suffering paranoia, after the first initial terrifying couple of weeks I realised they were not part of our shared reality, and dismissed them as "just an overactive imagination". It was six months before I sought help. Medication has virtually eliminated it. The placebo effect isn't that strong, if Szasz' hypothesis were true, the treatment would be any pill that the patient believed would work. In fact I was so far removed from reality at the time I started treatment I had no real idea that I was being treated.

Szasz is a cunt.
 
Re: Re: Re: Are we really that sick?

MissTaken said:
Ummm if you separate "disorder" from "illness", there are many disorders that are triggered or brought on by trauma or life circumstances.

I'm not going to argue semantics, my point was that in many cases people use their so-called "mental illnes" as an excuse not to face up to their own responsibilies.

I'm not saying that they're are NO people who have mental illnesses.

And unfortunately I've had to deal with mental health providers for business purposes and it's left me quite jaded as far as the competency of many are concerned. Again, this is not a condemnation of ALL mental health service providers, I haven't dealt with all of them.

But if you're going to ask me if a significant percentage of so-called mental health patients are miss-diagnosed I will unequivically say YES.
 
Re: Re: Are we really that sick?

claude_moveml said:
I was in a good mood until I read this. My initial thought was "what utter bollocks", but it is expressed in a way that seems plausible to those who haven't experienced it from the inside - it is a self-consistent idea. To those that have experienced it, it loads upon them further guilt and paranoia, "what if I'm just faking all this?".

When I first started hearing voices and suffering paranoia, after the first initial terrifying couple of weeks I realised they were not part of our shared reality, and dismissed them as "just an overactive imagination". It was six months before I sought help. Medication has virtually eliminated it. The placebo effect isn't that strong, if Szasz' hypothesis were true, the treatment would be any pill that the patient believed would work. In fact I was so far removed from reality at the time I started treatment I had no real idea that I was being treated.

Szasz is a cunt.

*thunderous applause*
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Are we really that sick?

Lasher said:
I'm not going to argue semantics, my point was that in many cases people use their so-called "mental illnes" as an excuse not to face up to their own responsibilies.

I'm not saying that they're are NO people who have mental illnesses.

And unfortunately I've had to deal with mental health providers for business purposes and it's left me quite jaded as far as the competency of many are concerned. Again, this is not a condemnation of ALL mental health service providers, I haven't dealt with all of them.

But if you're going to ask me if a significant percentage of so-called mental health patients are miss-diagnosed I will unequivically say YES.

Not arguing semantics with you as much Szas or whomever he is.

yes..misdiagnosis is common, over diagnosis is common and a resounding "Hell, Yeah!" to the competence of the providers.

My guess is that 50 percent of lawyers, doctors and mental health professionals graduate in the lower half of their class. I am pretty certain, these are the professionals we get here in the middle of nowhere, USA. :D
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Are we really that sick?

MissTaken said:
Not arguing semantics with you as much Szas or whomever he is.

Fair enough. I haven't read Szasz and I'm always queasy about arguing anyone's work who I'm not familiar with. Much of what was quoted their rang true to me. If their are other issues with his work I'm just not familiar enough with it to know.

But I'll definitely stand by what I said in my second post.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Are we really that sick?

MissTaken said:
Not arguing semantics with you as much Szas or whomever he is.

yes..misdiagnosis is common, over diagnosis is common and a resounding "Hell, Yeah!" to the competence of the providers.

My guess is that 50 percent of lawyers, doctors and mental health professionals graduate in the lower half of their class. I am pretty certain, these are the professionals we get here in the middle of nowhere, USA. :D
Psychiatry is not a precise science either so it's normal to have misdiagnosis, over diagnosis etc. Many mental health providers in major metropolitan cities have too big a caseload for them to handle as well. If Szasz was right, the doctors could just hand the same pill out to everyone and clear out the hospital wards. It doesn't work like that. Most people in psych wards are chronically mentally ill and aren't "faking" it or trying to escape some reality. They are there because they are a danger to themselves or to society.

Szasz also believes that autistism can be "cured" in the same way. He's full of crap!
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Are we really that sick?

Lasher said:
I'm not going to argue semantics, my point was that in many cases people use their so-called "mental illnes" as an excuse not to face up to their own responsibilies.
I think anyone who would use "mental illnes" [sic.] as an excuse not to face up to their own responsibilities must be crazy.

Oops.
 
I think that to diagnose someone who isn't ill is very detrimental.

In terms of misdiagnosing someone who is ill may not be a problem all the time as long as they are getting what they need.

The diagnosis is a label, a tool by which to get treatment.

For me, it shouldn't matter what the diagnosis is as long as it gets you the treatment.

But it does....
mental illness is unfortunately a source of shame for many, regardless of their success with treatment.

*sigh*

Wow, Szasz is sounding worse and worse the more I learn about him here!
Autism, curable? wow
 
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