Are things really that bad in Iraq?

[p_p_man]

The BBC 24 hour News Service has just switched over to a Press Briefing (somewhere in Iraq) and guess what this most important briefing is all about?

The fact that water is now being delivered to the Iraqi people...

In the bad old days when wars weren't fabricatated, motives weren't suspect and people like Bush and Blair were in their diapers (nappies in proper English) the delivery of water wasn't something you talked about...

It was something that was expected to be done...

So I read into that Briefing that things aren't going well at all on the front line...

ppman

 

[Mr2U]

Yea it looks like the brits are having a hard time installing themselves as 'babysitters', maybe soon they'll get the go ahead to act as an army and get on with it. The US will be in the same situation soon too though.

 

[p_p_man]

Hey! Breaking news...

food is being delivered as well...

ppman

 

[Lovelynice]

Wasn't it the US & British that were deliberately destroying warehouses full of food only a few days ago in Basra?

I saw the report of it on Reuters.

The food they now deliver may in fact be stuff from the "Oil for Food" program anyway. Quite a few ship captains are complaining of American piracy in that particular matter, and the UN is still upset about US forces taking such food and relabeling it as American aid.

 

[p_p_man]

and the UN is still upset about US forces taking such food and relabeling it as American aid.

They're like that...

Then they say they're the biggest donors of aid in the world...

ppman

 

[Mr2U]

Wasn't it the US & British that were deliberately destroying warehouses full of food only a few days ago in Basra?

Correct, too much food in one place is extremely dangerous, the lawyers were worried about the bags being stacked too high and the liability if one fell on a poor iraqi, hence the need to destroy them.

 

[zipman]

Wasn't it the US & British that were deliberately destroying warehouses full of food only a few days ago in Basra?

I saw the report of it on Reuters.

The food they now deliver may in fact be stuff from the "Oil for Food" program anyway. Quite a few ship captains are complaining of American piracy in that particular matter, and the UN is still upset about US forces taking such food and relabeling it as American aid.

Try reading the news before you comment on it. British troops found a warehouse with hundreds of tons of food in Basra. This is a city where people barely had enough food before the war. NO FOOD WAS DESTROYED.

As for piracy, how about a link to substantiate any of your allegations.

ppman - Water was never expected, it was rarely ever cared about. The truth is that this war has set a much higher standard for trying to minimize collateral damage. A prime example is that power and utilities have not been targeted, the lights just went out in Bagdhad yesterday. Show me any other war that has been fought with this much regard for minimizing civilian casualties and suffering.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Wasn't it the US & British that were deliberately destroying warehouses full of food only a few days ago in Basra?

I saw the report of it on Reuters.

The food they now deliver may in fact be stuff from the "Oil for Food" program anyway. Quite a few ship captains are complaining of American piracy in that particular matter, and the UN is still upset about US forces taking such food and relabeling it as American aid.

Yep. Standard combat equipment for the Army and Marine Corps, labels that say "This Gift from the People of the United States."

Maybe they printed them up using the combat printing presses that are standard equipment on each tank.

Of course, things are so quiet that the soldiers have time to do all this.

Naturally things were different in other "non-contrived wars" as the twit pointed out.

People were just left to starve then. But then, nobody truely gave a fuck about civilian casualties either.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Try reading the news before you comment on it. British troops found a warehouse with hundreds of tons of food in Basra. This is a city where people barely had enough food before the war. NO FOOD WAS DESTROYED.

As for piracy, how about a link to substantiate any of your allegations.

ppman - Water was never expected, it was rarely ever cared about. The truth is that this war has set a much higher standard for trying to minimize collateral damage. A prime example is that power and utilities have not been targeted, the lights just went out in Bagdhad yesterday. Show me any other war that has been fought with this much regard for minimizing civilian casualties and suffering.

Zipman, you are trying to teach pigs to sing.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Gee - if the US hadn't gone ahead and started a war the UN didn't back our soldiers wouldn't be spending so much time handing out food and water. The UN would be doing it. One more reason this war is shameful.

 

[Linedrive]

The food they now deliver may in fact be stuff from the "Oil for Food" program anyway. Quite a few ship captains are complaining of American piracy in that particular matter, and the UN is still upset about US forces taking such food and relabeling it as American aid.

Reuters is reporting the 2nd US Marine Amphibious assault group is patrolling the waters of the Persian Gulf dressed as, get this...Pirates. They are hammering home rum by the gallon, sinking any little piss ant civilian fishing boats that get near them, and hijacking UN ships full of food. Let me go find the link.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Gee - if the US hadn't gone ahead and started a war the UN didn't back our soldiers wouldn't be spending so much time handing out food and water. The UN would be doing it. One more reason this war is shameful.

Better handing out water now than performing NBC decontamination proceedures in 5 years or so.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Reuters is reporting the 2nd US Marine Amphibious assault group is patrolling the waters of the Persian Gulf dressed as, get this...Pirates. They are hammering home rum by the gallon, sinking any little piss ant civilian fishing boats that get near them, and hijacking UN ships full of food. Let me go find the link.

"Yo ho ho and two dollars a barrel for Iraqi crude!!!"


I think they should have dressed as Vikings.


I'm biased though.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

And this war has stopped that threat? mmmmmm, what about Syria, N. Korea, Iran, Afganistan, etc. etc. Are we doomed to spend the rest of eternity patrolling the world for weapons?

 

[Linedrive]

And this war has stopped that threat? mmmmmm, what about Syria, N. Korea, Iran, Afganistan, etc. etc. Are we doomed to spend the rest of eternity patrolling the world for weapons?

Syria needs to be called out for their support of terrorism.

North Korea needs attention, why the Chinese, Russians, South Koreans and Japanese view this as an American-Korean problem is beyond me. Is the UN going to do anything about Korea...?

Alot of people think Iran will take care of itself in many ways within the next 1-5 years.

Afghanistan looks a hell of alot better now than it did 2 years ago.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

And this war has stopped that threat? mmmmmm, what about Syria, N. Korea, Iran, Afganistan, etc. etc. Are we doomed to spend the rest of eternity patrolling the world for weapons?

Not eternity. Only until we miss some.

My, you certainly do have a way of jumping logically from A to Z. There are 24 other letters you know. I didn't think that my comment was that broad based.

The situation with Iraq is a lot different than the situations you mentioned, IMHO.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Afganistan looks better? According to who? The tribal leaders that have taken power since we bombed them are in many places worse that the Taliban was. The point is - we can't CURE this region of their culture.......

 

[zipman]

Gee - if the US hadn't gone ahead and started a war the UN didn't back our soldiers wouldn't be spending so much time handing out food and water. The UN would be doing it. One more reason this war is shameful.

If the UN and the rest of the world had actually done something before now, we wouldn't have needed to go to war. The apathy and ineffectiveness of the UN caused this conflict as much as Saddam Hussein has.

Look at N. Korea. What has the UN or the rest of the world been saying. Nobody does a damn thing until the US does get involved and then all of a sudden, everyone has proposals for how to deal with it and everyone criticizes what the US does. How about the rest of the world do something asides from simply being an armchair quarterback. This is exactly what happened with Kosova. When will the rest of the world understand that inaction doesn't solve anything?

RosevilleCAguy - What can I say, I try.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Afganistan looks better? According to who? The tribal leaders that have taken power since we bombed them are in many places worse that the Taliban was. The point is - we can't CURE this region of their culture.......

Good point.


Perhaps a nice genocidal campaign is in order. Heck, there are only 35 million Arabs. It shouldn't be too difficult.

How are the tribal leaders in Afghanistan worse than the Taliban? Assuming that they are, I suggest that there is a huge difference between fragmented tribalism and institutionalized mayhem.

 

[zipman]

Afganistan looks better? According to who? The tribal leaders that have taken power since we bombed them are in many places worse that the Taliban was. The point is - we can't CURE this region of their culture.......

You're right, the UN hasn't been doing a good job of post-war reconstruction there. You do know that they are in charge of that, don't you?

 

[Jez Springfella]

And this war has stopped that threat? mmmmmm, what about Syria, N. Korea, Iran, Afganistan, etc. etc. Are we doomed to spend the rest of eternity patrolling the world for weapons?

Sorry but man will always make war, its part of our nature.

In 1992 after the last gulf war & the end of the cold war people taked about the end of history. But thats not turned out to be true.

The fact is there are less wars now, than in the last thousand years.

Still even after this war is over things will remain interestig.

I think North Korea is next as they've been threatening Japan for launching spy satalites & hve been lying about their Nuclear program.

 

[Linedrive]

Afganistan looks better? According to who? The tribal leaders that have taken power since we bombed them are in many places worse that the Taliban was. The point is - we can't CURE this region of their culture.......

Nobody is trying to cure this region of it's culture. Afghanistan is better for the sheer fact that Al Qaeda cannot just roam freely under a government that supports them. That alone makes it better to me and alot of other people.

Afghanistan is better for the women right...?

The Taliban were killing way more people than are dying now, so I'd say it's better for the average Afghan, especially the non-Pashtuns.

 

[Mr2U]

If the UN and the rest of the world had actually done something before now, we wouldn't have needed to go to war. The apathy and ineffectiveness of the UN caused this conflict as much as Saddam Hussein has.

Look at N. Korea. What has the UN or the rest of the world been saying. Nobody does a damn thing until the US does get involved and then all of a sudden, everyone has proposals for how to deal with it and everyone criticizes what the US does. How about the rest of the world do something asides from simply being an armchair quarterback. This is exactly what happened with Kosova. When will the rest of the world understand that inaction doesn't solve anything?

RosevilleCAguy - What can I say, I try.

Well said !

We are only expected to step up and pay the ransom to N. Korea and pick up the tab for the worlds problems... not get involved in solving them, that is the role for the more 'civilized' nations of the un.... well looks likes things are starting to change some... for the better IMO.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

Afganistan will revert right back to what it was. They may not call themselves the Taliban this time. Just like Iraq will do the same. It is their nature to be small tribal groups of people that don't get along. Its our Western culture that tried to 'box in' these people into nice little countries - unfortunately, in our hurry to group them in nice little states we neglected to realize that they don't get along. There is no 'national' pride cuz these people don't believe in the 'nation' we 'made' for them. (by "we" I mean western countries namely US and UK) They stand and fight for their individual 'tribe' be it run by Saddam or Shiite or whomever. Is the only answer what roseville suggests? Bomb them all to hell? I don't believe that. There's got to be a better way. Unfortunately, we've muddied their water so much at this point - by forcing them to become states, by turning our back on some bad guys, and/or supporting 'bad' guys, by selling them weapons and siding with whomever is the arab flavor of the year during whatever internal wars they may want to fight. The point is - we built this monster by 100 years of crappy foreign policy. To say the only resolution is to bomb the hell out of these people is just so wrong on so many levels......... I'm sure you'll all disagree - and you'll all have millions of facts and figures as to why I'm wrong. But take a minute and look back --- wayyyy back.

 

[Linedrive]

Afganistan will revert right back to what it was. They may not call themselves the Taliban this time. Just like Iraq will do the same.

Have a little faith cbg...nothing about helping rebuild these countries is easy. Don't you think that the Arab people are like most others in the sense that they value their families, homes, mosques, friends, etc...? I'm not convinced that most Arabs want to strap on a suicide bomb, this is a small minority - the radicals.

Don't you think the Afghans and Iraqi's deserve to elect their own leaders that don't suppress and kill off the population. Don't you think they deserve to be able to prosper, become educated, etc...?

There is a small village in Pakistan near the Afghan border, in I believe the Swajal valley...? Anyway, 43 men left the village at the urging of this Islamic cleric to go fight in Afghanistan. 2 men returned, the other 41 were killed. The people of this village were outraged, expressing how tired they were of the religious clergy sending their sons, brothers and fathers off to die, while they sat in the luxury of their home. The cleric was later arrested. This is an isolated story, but my point is that people are people, most have the same basic needs and hopes.


It is their nature to be small tribal groups of people that don't get along. Its our Western culture that tried to 'box in' these people into nice little countries - unfortunately, in our hurry to group them in nice little states we neglected to realize that they don't get along. There is no 'national' pride cuz these people don't believe in the 'nation' we 'made' for them. (by "we" I mean western countries namely US and UK) They stand and fight for their individual 'tribe' be it run by Saddam or Shiite or whomever. Is the only answer what roseville suggests? Bomb them all to hell? I don't believe that.

Again, it just seems like you are resigning to the fact that they are all warmongers. I bet most Afghans have more national pride now then they did when their government was hijacked by the Taliban.


There's got to be a better way. Unfortunately, we've muddied their water so much at this point - by forcing them to become states, by turning our back on some bad guys, and/or supporting 'bad' guys, by selling them weapons and siding with whomever is the arab flavor of the year during whatever internal wars they may want to fight. The point is - we built this monster by 100 years of crappy foreign policy. To say the only resolution is to bomb the hell out of these people is just so wrong on so many levels......... I'm sure you'll all disagree - and you'll all have millions of facts and figures as to why I'm wrong. But take a minute and look back --- wayyyy back.

Our foreign policy has made some bad decisions, and it is easy to second guess in hindsight. When dealing with foreign policy, you are sometimes forced to do things you don't want to do, and more times than not finding yourself picking from the better of the two evils. You have valid points and questions. My responses are just my opinions.