Are Baptists "Christians?"
- Thread starter riff
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SkyBluAngelEyes
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Forgive my ignorance Riff, but why does it depend on the time of day?
You did a good thing by printing out the prayer of St. Francis. It's one of my favourites.
You did a good thing by printing out the prayer of St. Francis. It's one of my favourites.
Starblayde
5pointboy
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entitled said:Technicality: Anybody who believes Christ lived and breathed is a Christian. Even me, the pagan.
Like catholics. They're christians too, rmember
SkyBluAngelEyes
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riff said:
That I agree with. I am also a cradle Catholic. I feel it more of a privilege to be Catholic. I've never thought of it as being saved, but I also think the Baptists way of being saved is too easy. JMHO.
riff
Jose Jones
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<i>Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
...where there is injury, pardon;
...where there is doubt, faith;
...where there is despair, hope;
...where there is darkness, light;
...where there is sadness, joy;
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
...to be consoled as to console;
...to be understood as to understand;
...to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
...it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
...and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.</i>
I suppose that waking up and telling oneself that "Today I will be a decent human being" would suffice.
Prayers are their own answer.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
...where there is injury, pardon;
...where there is doubt, faith;
...where there is despair, hope;
...where there is darkness, light;
...where there is sadness, joy;
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek
...to be consoled as to console;
...to be understood as to understand;
...to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
...it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
...and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.</i>
I suppose that waking up and telling oneself that "Today I will be a decent human being" would suffice.
Prayers are their own answer.
The Heretic
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Not quite; no more than the fact that I believe that Muhammad lived and breathed makes me a Moslem, or that Buhdda lived makes me a Buhddist.entitled said:Technicality: Anybody who believes Christ lived and breathed is a Christian. Even me, the pagan.
The orthodox belief is that you not only believe that Jesus Christ lived and breathed, but that you accept, believe and live his teachings - including the teaching that he is your savior, etc.
crappie master
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The Apostles' Creed
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the
Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was
crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose
again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand
of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick
and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of
saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life
everlasting. AMEN.
The United Church of Christ use the Apostles Creed too. Note the word Catholic doesn't denote the Roman Catholic Church but means universal.
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the
Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was
crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose
again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand
of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick
and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of
saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life
everlasting. AMEN.
The United Church of Christ use the Apostles Creed too. Note the word Catholic doesn't denote the Roman Catholic Church but means universal.
unclej
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your question was whether baptists are christian or not. depends. if the folks knocking on your door had blue hair then yes, they are definitely your basic baptist, go to church 3 times a week, no dancin', eat fish on friday out of solidarity with the catholics, bible thumpin' christians. if, on the other hand they were young, freshly scrubbed and shaved and had a sort of halo/aura thingie goin' on then they were fundamentalist, born again and out to save the world baptist and were more like a cult than christian.
"you mind yours and i'll mind mine and you and me buddy we'll get along fine. now go on home or i'm just liable to show you right where to put that bible.
you mind yours and i'll mind mine and you and me buddy we'll get along fine. now go on home to your little miss and i won't have to show you which part to kiss."
the chorus from one of my songs written on this exact subject.
"you mind yours and i'll mind mine and you and me buddy we'll get along fine. now go on home or i'm just liable to show you right where to put that bible.
you mind yours and i'll mind mine and you and me buddy we'll get along fine. now go on home to your little miss and i won't have to show you which part to kiss."
the chorus from one of my songs written on this exact subject.
PoliteSuccubus
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A helpful article
A Christian Speaks of Wicca and Witchcraft
by James Clement Taylor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am a Christian and not a Wiccan. A Christian is one who has been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and who has made a personal, free-will decision to commit himself and all his or her life to our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Both of these things are true of me. I am a member of St. Mary's Eastern Orthodox Church, Calhan, Colorado. In this paper, I am not speaking as agent for any church, but I am, entirely on my own responsibility, speaking the truth in love, as we Christians are supposed to do.
A Situation of Strife and Shame:
There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion, a Pagan, proclaimed:
"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:10-12)
If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a refusal to judge others:
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15)
"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew 7:2)
"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)
"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." (Luke 6:36-38)
Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things, will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)
Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace, which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either. The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works, nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right church. Rather, it is faith in God, and in His mercy:
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)
But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by their own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them Satan-worshippers are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a God whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.
Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it should. In the Bible we find the following:
"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, The One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)
The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!
For those of us who are unable to simply stand on God's Word, and must prove to themselves the truth of what it proclaims the holy Apostle John has given us the method for doing this. You have only to attend any public Wiccan ceremony, and test the spirits which are there, to see "whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1). You will find that, while the power manifested there may be less than what you have experienced as a Christian, that power is clearly the power of God.
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, these people of Wicca have been terribly slandered by us. They have lost jobs, and homes, and places of business because we have assured others that they worship Satan, which they do not. We have persecuted them, and God will hold us accountable for this, you may be sure, for He has said, "Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me." (Matthew 25:40)
Let us, from this point onward, repent of our misdeeds and declare that henceforth we shall obey Christ our God, and not judge others or condemn them, so that He will not have to judge and condemn us for our sins.
A Christian Speaks of Wicca and Witchcraft
by James Clement Taylor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am a Christian and not a Wiccan. A Christian is one who has been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and who has made a personal, free-will decision to commit himself and all his or her life to our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ. Both of these things are true of me. I am a member of St. Mary's Eastern Orthodox Church, Calhan, Colorado. In this paper, I am not speaking as agent for any church, but I am, entirely on my own responsibility, speaking the truth in love, as we Christians are supposed to do.
A Situation of Strife and Shame:
There are many Christians today who believe that anyone who is not a Christian is doomed to an eternity of suffering in hell. Any decent person, believing this, would be compelled to try to save as many people from this fate as possible. But is this belief correct? Jesus Christ, having noted the faith and righteousness of a Roman centurion, a Pagan, proclaimed:
"Assuredly I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:10-12)
If we accept these words as true, and surely we should, then it is clear that heaven will contain many who are not Christians, and hell will contain many who are! Clearly, throughout the Gospels, Jesus Christ sets forth the criteria for entrance into the kingdom of heaven, and those criteria include love, kindness, forgiveness, and a refusal to judge others:
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15)
"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the same measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Matthew 7:2)
"But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy and not sacrifice.'" (Matthew 9:13)
"Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." (Luke 6:36-38)
Is it not clear? Anyone who fails in these things, will calling himself a Christian save him? Anyone who obeys God in these things, will being unbaptized condemn him? Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)
Yet it is not by good works that we earn our way into heaven, because there is no way we can earn the free gift of God's mercy and grace, which alone can save us. But it is clear that it is not by faith, in the sense of sharing the Christian faith, that we are saved, either. The faith which saves us is not faith in the goodness of our works, nor faith that we have the right theology and/or belong to the right church. Rather, it is faith in God, and in His mercy:
"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy." (Romans 9:16)
But the Wiccans, you will say, do not have faith in God. Yet by their own theology, they certainly do. Those who call them Satan-worshippers are entirely wrong. They do not worship Satan, or even believe that Satan exists. Instead, they worship a Goddess and a God whom they understand as manifestations of a higher and unknown Deity.
Now if you are a Christian, this will sound familiar to you, and it should. In the Bible we find the following:
"Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, `Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, The One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you" (Acts 17:22-23)
The Wiccans worship the Unknown God, as manifested to them in the form of a Goddess and a God. Therefore, our Bible tells us they worship the same God we do; and if they do not know this, we should know it!
For those of us who are unable to simply stand on God's Word, and must prove to themselves the truth of what it proclaims the holy Apostle John has given us the method for doing this. You have only to attend any public Wiccan ceremony, and test the spirits which are there, to see "whether they are of God" (1 John 4:1). You will find that, while the power manifested there may be less than what you have experienced as a Christian, that power is clearly the power of God.
Dear brothers and sisters in Christ, these people of Wicca have been terribly slandered by us. They have lost jobs, and homes, and places of business because we have assured others that they worship Satan, which they do not. We have persecuted them, and God will hold us accountable for this, you may be sure, for He has said, "Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me." (Matthew 25:40)
Let us, from this point onward, repent of our misdeeds and declare that henceforth we shall obey Christ our God, and not judge others or condemn them, so that He will not have to judge and condemn us for our sins.
entitled
the quiet one
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It actually goes somewhat beyond that, though most people just consider it to be just another label. It adheres to another way of thinking - a polytheistic (usually) religion that usually has God(s) and Goddess(es) in worship, who are also a part of everything. That's as far as it's getting right now because i know i don't make sense at the moment. *laughs*riff said:
entitled
the quiet one
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The orthodox belief is also no longer accepted in many places. It's simply become outdated. Just an observation made by quite a few (and well discussed over many cups of coffee).The Heretic said:
As to the other: i posted a response to another thread here (if the link works) https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=4206599#post4206599 that more or less explains my personal position on all the hoop-de-doo having to do with the basics of any religion.
Thrillhouse
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The next time a door-to-door religion salesperson rings knocks on your door, print this out and have them fill it out. Guaranteed laughs!
The Heretic
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The orthodox belief wasn't accepted in many places when Christianity was a very young religion - that is why I used the word "orthodox". The fact that some don't accept it doesn't make it false.entitled said:
Of course a person is free to believe whatever they wish, but OTOH, I can believe I am a rocket scientist - it just doesn't make me one.
There is some maneuvering room within Christianity (as there are for many religions) for variations of beliefs, but the basic tenets were as I stated, and they encompass more than just believing that a person existed. I believe Marx and Lenin existed, but that doesn't make me a socialist or communist. I believe Hitler existed, but that doesn't make me a Nazi.
Need I really give more examples??
Last edited:
entitled
the quiet one
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As i said in a post on here somewhere, i'm just not making sense at the moment, but will try to answer anyway. Give it a couple days and i'll disagree with myself - when i'm thinking better.The Heretic said:
It's true that Your definition of Christianity has never been wholly accepted by any group. Neither has mine. As You said, a person is free to believe whatever they wish. That means some people believe Your definition, while others will believe mine, and even more will believe something else.
If You would kindly take the time to follow the link provided in my previous post and read what's written there, i won't go into the whole spiel about religions - ALL of them - and their basics. Again. It's all explained there. Even how Christianity in it's basic form is nearly exactly like all other mainstream religions out there.
On the whole Marx/Lenin/Hitler thing: You're working on a completely different time frame. These people have become legends, yes, but are an entirely different level than Christ/Muhammed/whoever. The religious figures were born (or thought up) literally thousands of years ago. There are very few people who can even begin to guess at the original stories as they were set down, simply because they were written in dead languages. Who's to say that somebody in a couple of thousand years that believes Hitler existed won't be considered a Nazi simply because of that?
The Heretic
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I did follow the link and read your post - I saw nothing to support your assertion that because someone believes someone existed, that this makes that person an adherent of the religious, philosophical or political beliefs that person espoused or stood for. There is just this big gap of logic that you seem to be jumping, that I do not see how you are getting from point A to point B.entitled said:
Earlier I used Buhdda and Muhammed. I could go back to Aristotle if I want (I am fairly sure Aristotle existed), and that doesn't make me an adherent of Aristotlean (sp?) philosophy - does it?
A person "A" can concede that person "B" existed without that concession meaning "A" adheres to the beliefs of person "B". They don't even have to know what the beliefs of "B" are.
For instance, a person can concede that a person known as Jesus Christ once existed. They could even concede that Jesus Christ was crucified. Neither of these concessions would mean that they adhere to the belief that Jesus Christ was a messiah, Son of God, etc. - any more than I, as a Christian, would adhere to the belief that Hirohito was a God as many Japanese used to - even though I am sure he existed.
Therefore, I still assert that simple belief that a particular person once existed does not equate to a belief in their philosophy. Sure, maybe some people could or would jump to that conclusion, but they would simply be wrong.
G
Guest
Guest
Hmmmm, I'm a Witch, raised that way by my mother who is still a practicing Witch, and we both believe that Jesus was a living, breathing human being 2,000+ years ago. Doesn't mean that we in any way, shape or form believe that he was a messiah, just a man.
Interesting side note. I've had Baptists from the church up the street come to my door and try to speak to me about my beliefs, which are made quite obvious. I told them that I'd listen to them preach to me for 15 minutes, if they'd let me recite "The Charge of the Goddess" to them. They've never taken me up on it...Guess they don't subscribe to the "Love thy neighbor" policy, hmmmm?
Interesting side note. I've had Baptists from the church up the street come to my door and try to speak to me about my beliefs, which are made quite obvious. I told them that I'd listen to them preach to me for 15 minutes, if they'd let me recite "The Charge of the Goddess" to them. They've never taken me up on it...Guess they don't subscribe to the "Love thy neighbor" policy, hmmmm?
